Ventrua killing maven on level 71 fresh start character #nobugfixes
twitch.tv/videos/1478247109?t=08h36m48s
twitch.tvPosted May 8, 2022, 3:03 PM UTC
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twitch.tvAre people gonna take Chris' words 100% literally and actually think this isn't getting patched?
There's a gigantic difference between ignites stacking infinitely due to an obscure gem interaction and a monster type having higher health% modifiers than other monsters because the devs forgot to change it.
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He did specificy that this 'no nerfs' includes builds that had bugs giving them more power (e.g. DD and the bugged spectre that has more corpse HP than it should).
Obviously an interaction that is this broken, that was previously unknown will still get fixed.
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He might have said something wasn't being nerfed or bugs weren't going to be fixed, but that was not the goal of that statement.
The proposed goal was "we aren't going to significantly shake up the skill meta, so any guide for 3.17 league start will work exactly the same in 3.18"
This bug being in the game significantly changes any build from 3.17 as it's orders of magnitude better.
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This build is from 3.17 tho, you just didn't know about it https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds/char/ewoxx/neme_cwdt?time-machine=week-4&i=2&search=time-machine%3Dweek-4%26allskill%3DFlame-Wall%2CEye-of-Winter
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Exactly.
The point was to not change the meta significantly, the fact that this interaction wasn't well known, and is a large mechanical bug is why it should be fixed.
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Spectre mob health is a bug they aren't fixing, which was mentioned in the Q&A as an example for their general policy https://www.twitch.tv/pathofexile/clip/TangentialArborealDillJebaited-5-9WmPDTZ9PEI0WA
I aggree though, that this interaction should be fixed
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? that was not the point of this discussion. I was specifically talking about
Bug fixes are not nerfs
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He also said that some developers where saying that bug fixes aren't nerfs and tey still didn't make any changes.
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didnt chris actually go on a tangent and explain that the devs wanted to fix a bug and chris told them not to because it was technically a nerf?
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one is slightly game-breaking and the other is very game-breaking? is that the difference? forgetting to change them is a poor excuse and definitely not the real reason why.
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How is DD corpse life game breaking? Lmao. DD is still worse than Seismic trap.
The spectre bug was incorrect but GGG decided DD was balanced with the higher spectre corpse life in mind. It’s still heavily nerfed from 3.16 and they think it is in a good enough spot now, with that spectre life.
This is just a broken mechanic.
One of these is a deliberate balance decision by GGG. One is a broken bug. Stop pretending they’re similar. DD is fine, GGG likes where it is balance wise, get a new slant.
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How is DD corpse life game breaking?
As it relates to the hardcore/hardcore SSF game mode and racing DD is pretty broken.
Obviously that's a tiny subset of the playerbase.
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Ben (lightee) thinks even with this in game DD is not the play for the boss race. You'll likely see him on Seismic.
Seismic is still most likely quite a bit better than DD, but DD is definitely a strong and viable option. It is not broken.
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What's the real reason why?
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One is literally a bug (unintended behavior of running code) and the other is a value in a table being wrong.
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Both of those are bugs.
The difference is that GGG knew and decided not to fix auric champions, which is their call.
I doubt they knew about this and decided not to fix this.
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The specter issue is less a bug and more an oversight since it's an issue that came up from a sweeping pass of all specter health and just this one didn't get changed.
While the term "bug" isn't technically incorrect, it's also not sincere.
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Which is also a bug. Having wrong data not according to your specs makes your code run no less wrong than bugs in the implementation of logic.
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Oversight is a more appropriate term
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One is a bug, one is a value in a table being correct. Because they're aware of that value and think it is OK to keep as is.
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This could also be described as a value in a table being wrong. It could just not be applying the same source (you) to every secondary debuff, and instead applying it to the smaller projectiles. That'd be a single value - the source of debuff - being wrong to produce this bug.
I can't say for sure if that is the case, but it certainly could be.
They're both unintended, and both build-changing bugs.
I would like to link the Q&A where they talked about bugs. Here's a transcript screenshot Link (auto youtube transcript), here's the whole Q&A with a relevant timestamp Link, and here's a relevant character in league over a month ago. https://poe.ninja/challenge/builds/char/ewoxx/neme_cwdt?time-machine=week-4&i=2&search=time-machine%3Dweek-4%26allskill%3DFlame-Wall%2CEye-of-Winter
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Of course, this is getting fixed. That being said fixing one bug and not the other would put them in a weird position as a clerical error is still a software bug - there is no way around it.
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That being said fixing one bug and not the other
Can people honestly not see the difference between these two things?
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The difference is clear. So is the fact that both are bugs. You either #nobugfixes or you #somebugfixes. Aurics are not working as intended - it's just the magnitude of that bug is smaller. It's still substantial enough that it should - IMO - be addressed.
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They literally never said no bug fixes. Stop spreading this moronic shit, good lord the player base is fucking stupid. Learn some nuance.
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I don't think the fact that it's a bug is important at all.
The goal of the league change wasn't to not fix bugs, it was to not significantly change the balance of the build meta.
This bug being in the game would drastically change that meta. So would fixing the DD life bug to a lesser extent.
That is why them fixing this but not DD is perfectly logically consistent with their goals.
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That attitude right there is the reason you are single, don't have any friends and your parents are wondering where it all went wrong.
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I know by now to take everything Chris says with a grain of salt. Although the difference here is they advertised it
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Technically they both sound like bugs and should both be fixed.
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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1478247109?t=10h12m48s
It also burns through when you come back. Whats probably gonna force the fix is the fact that you can setup the burn on maven, and the dot will kill her during grace since it isnt ignite.
So for HC SSF, You go in, setup the burn stack, leave the fight, come back and wait in grace period for her to burn to death.
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Yeah. The dmg alone is a bit too much tbh, but the fact you can leave a fight and they'll still be burning is just too much. There is no way it makes it to release in its current state. Maaaybe they let the dmg keep stacking, but there is no way they will let it persist after a log.
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bex just confirmed they're probably going to fix it today, enjoy it while it lasts
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good
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Fuck yeah, that's actually huge.
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Not gonna lie, im a little disappointed. It's obviously the right decision, but i wouldn't have minded straight up face rolling through a league for all the content i haven't done yet
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this is getting fixed. if anyone think they gonna leave, a now known bug, that enable you to do feared on 0ex budget on low lvl char that will front load burning stack and stay dead while all the bosses burn down - is smoking something out of this world.
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staying dead and SSFHC name a better duo.
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Uber Doedre and weightwatchers
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SC scrub here, too lazy to logout
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You don't need to stay dead. You can log out. It's bugged enough that you can apply stacks and log out and the stacks stay. If you ignore all the other reasons that this should get fixed, this is the reason that it really, really needs to get fixed.
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This need to be reported and fix before league launch, its just... completely breaking the game, DD is not even at 10% of this level.
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I bet GGG is already aware of this.
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"Not fixing bugs on purpose" seems weird to me. Temp leagues are temp leagues for a reason.
Just fix the damn aurics if they're unintended, and fix the firewall cheese. Why paint yourself in the corner like that?
If a bugfix ends up as a nerf, take the responsibility, fix the bug and put out "an apology" to the 5 people affected.
I think people are taking this game too seriously.
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Just fix the damn aurics if they're unintended, and fix the firewall cheese. Why paint yourself in the corner like that?
If a bugfix ends up as a nerf, take the responsibility, fix the bug and put out "an apology" to the 5 people affected.
That would defeat their goal. The goal isn't to ignore bugs or make sure players are happy that their skill wasn't nerfed.
The goal is to keep the balance state the same so that you can follow the same build and it will work largely the same.
No one (who was trying to race) would be playing a build that isn't this flame wall build if this made it into the game.
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Not fixing a bug has bigger implications than a few builds that will lose some damage here and there (while the build itself keeping complete integrity)
I assume ggg is not taking this decision because of DD racers.
Now, if they fix bugs, a portion of players will be unhappy, because "you said no bug fixes", and if they don't, another portion of players will be unhappy that the game is literally buggy and the devs know about it.
Weird situation to create for themselves.
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Yeah but if they don't fix DD bug, a few people will be mad.
If they don't fix this bug, the entire league will be a joke.
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Can someone give me a rundown of what the bug is and how it works? I can't even tell what skill he's using.
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Basically there's an obscure interaction between Eye of Winter mines and Flame wall. Flame wall has a secondary debuff dealing fire Dot for a duration, and it can be applied from projectiles that pass through it. Somehow, detonating a sequence of EoW mines can apply (not 100% sure about this) either multiple stacks of the Dot, or the same Dot but with sort of an "infinite" duration due to all the EoW projectiles passing through and hitting the same mob.
In super easy terms, infinite Flame wall Dot scaling through and obscure mechanic (a BUG, clearly) capable with minimal investment to kill any boss
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I understand it to be multiple stacks + crazy duration, watched ventruas stream
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Crazy thing is the duration stays even if you logout/die/enemy going in and out of immunity phases. So you can just portal/logout come back and stand there in your immunity timer and wait for the boss to die.
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So it's the player version of bosses' immunity phases?
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Just fix both dd and this and call it a day
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Why do they need to fix DD? It's not nearly this egregious. Not even close.
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because its a bug
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Yes, and they said they wouldn't fix bugs, referring to the DD one. They're willing to let DD slip by this time because it's not egregious. This, on the other hand, is insanely egregious.
One injury is more cause for intervention than another. Magnitude matters.
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The best time to fix dd bug was before announcing "no changes" memes, the second best time to fix dd bug is right now.
Better admit a mistake than make another one
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"why do they need to fix bugs?"
bro
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They went out of their way to tell a bunch of people they wouldn't fix it specifically.
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If they don’t fix this shit the league is dead on arrival.
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How much DPS is he doing?
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yes
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takes notes
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well each mine is a separate instance of flamewall's 2,000 base fire damage burn and a miner can easily get up to 20 mines at the same time... so at least 40,000 base dps?
for comparison, a REALLY good 2h weapon might have 1,200 base dps and lets say its attached to a heavy strike gem, so 313% base damage. that is 3,756 base dps.
so well over 10x what should even be possible. imagine giving your build a 1,000% more damage modifier.
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not even a large enough more damage modifier for a D3 set bonus gif
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watch the rest of the stream, he just does testing with various setups. Eventually tabula with nothing is still hurting maven by so much and the burn lasts forever so you can leave and come back and she'll burn to death during grace period.
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All
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Would dd be dead if they fix the HP of the auric?
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Nope. Would still be one of the top starters. Ben didn't use bugged spectres till day 5 of gauntlet.
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Can someone explain what's the mechanic behind all of this?
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There's an interaction with Blastchain mine support specifically that allows you to stack the secondary debuff from Flame Wall, similarly to how poisons stack. Since you can support eye of winter with it, and each projectile from EoW applies the full damage/duration debuff, you end up with possibly 100s of stacks of the Flame Wall debuff, resulting in thousands of more damage to the DoT damage.
Additionally, for some reason the duration also increases with the overlapping debuffs, so instead of having a large DoT for 2-3 seconds, you have one for 200-300 seconds, guaranteeing anything dies if it can't cleanse the debuff.
Additionally, if you die or otherwise leave the area, the damage will persist. In The Feared, for example, you can prep your mines, log out, and a few moments come back and everything will be dead.
It's been showcased already, but you can clear all bosses on a 1-link. As long as you have barely functioning gear and don't die, pretty much everything is clearable.
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POB please I want to be able to kill bosses this league :)
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This will get nerfed almost surely. Pob is EoW or Cremation + Blastchain support and Flamewall. End of PoB.
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OMG.. DD players are so afraid they are going to fix the bug they are abusing :D
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Can someone explain how to play DD? How do you explode dead when you enter map?
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Cast unearth or desecrate, or wear corpsewalker boots to create corpses. There's a few other ways as well.
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Look up a few build guides on YouTube they typically explain how to play it, but the TL;DW is they use desecrate to spawn corpses to blow up.
DD is strong, but it's a two button build.
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I looked up some guides but no one explained it everyone just gave links and leveling guides. I can be very wrong too lol.
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It should be explained in those links and leveling guides...
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Don't be silly guys. If that bug makes it into 3.18 the whole season is doomed. The sceptre bug is still a bug but not as bad.
It would still be better to fix both but ffs fix this one right here first.
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Can someone explain what the bug being used here is? Or timestamp where it is said in stream? I have no clue why his DPS is so much higher than expected.
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No way it is not bug.
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It is a feature ;)
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It seems pretty clear to me that there's a difference between "There's a desecratable enemy with 60% more corpse life than we expected" and "secondary projectiles from mines allow stacking a debuff that isn't meant to stack".
Ventrua is doing Shaper at the moment and the burning damage is (1) far larger than it should be and (2) lasted long enough that his first set of mines + flame wall killed shaper through all phases.
Yea people really need to stop holding the DD thing hostage in the hopes that GGG doesn't nerf this flame wall shit.
I'm gonna laugh my ass off when they nerf this and say "okay a few bug fixes" and include the Auric Champ hp. Can't wait for the chaos.
Ya they sold the no changes thing too hard. I want and expect game breaking bugs to be fixed, otherwise give us offline mode and old patches.
if that ever come around first thing i enable is poison double dipping
One day hopefully.
Actually I am hoping that this firewall thing makes them fix both bugs.
Most people want them to fix the DD thing too, I don't think it'd be a huge deal, maybe some anger for 1-2 days
Even if they do it wouldn't do much to DD, I didn't use Auric Champ spectres and still cleared juiced T16's with ease and Vaal DD makes short work of any tanky Archnem mob.
I almost think it’s the opposite. People want them to fix both.
It’s more of a “if you’re going to fix this, which you totally should, you should also change DD because even if it’s not this broken, no one wants that bug in game”.
what do you mean by its not broken? its a substantial increase that was not planned, and was literally the difference for some time between exile and lightee in a gauntlet run, the highest $ event in PoE.
I doubt anyone gives a flying fuck about DD, since it's a two-button playstyle and all. But this EOW+FW shit is just too much to be left with. Crazy part is people are defending this bug and holding the spectre corpse life bug as hostage wtf.
They're both 2 button playstyles...
Plenty of people enjoy the competitive aspect of PoE and watching every top player playing the same build for events is lame. Hopefully it's just banned in the gauntlet
Nope all the non no life players who wanna enjoy an easy leaguestart are totally cool with DD being strong. Can confirm I am one of them
Yeah if DD was nerfed what would they do? Play something even stronger like Seismic? O no!
DD is strong as is, even without the bug. Plus we got the new Atlas Passive giving DD free 50% corpse health.
Could understand this sentiment if DD was trash without the bug, but it 1000% isnt.
Cannot speak for others but I'm lowkey hoping that fixing this pushes them to also fix Aurics.
no, there is no difference. fix them both
Yes, there is a difference - they are different bugs after all. Still, the spectre bug while not of this magnitude is also very substantial and also very clearly not working as intended - as the intent was clearly stated in patch notes for Arch.
Specifically, the spectre bug is the game working as intended. Every mechanic is doing the right thing - but a spectre has wrong corpse life. The skill is fundamentally doing what it is meant to do.
This shit doesn't even work if you use the wrong mine support lol - there's at least 1 bona fide mechanics bug in there. The skill[s] are fundamentally not doing what they're supposed to do.
When you have a program crash, re-running that exact sequence of code the same way is going to result in that same crash every single time. You don't say "ah well, the program is doing exactly what the programmers coded, so it's not a bug I guess".
Bugs are coding errors or mistakes that produce different results than the design intent. The design intent for spectres is extremely clear - normalized health, which is not currently achieved due to a programmer oversight. By definition, this is a bug.
Actually the technical term for a programmer oversight is a "fucky wucky".
This doesnt change your overall point, but this isnt necessarily true.
Did I ever tell you the definition of
insanitythe bug?What if some dev wakes up one morning and decides
to choose deaththat player movement speed is too fast, and should be halved. This guy literally pulled the bug out of thin air. It wasn't there the day before, nobody put it in there, yet it somehow appeared just because someone decided that way.Spectre bug is not the game working as intended. The intent of the developers was to have spectres with normalized corpse life values. This is not what the game is doing because of incorrect adjustments.
While you can classify this as a different kind of bug - logic versus clerical error - both are resulting in the program running incorrectly.
You are writing about the intent of the balance of corpse life. The person you are responding to is saying that the MECHANIC works correctly, not that the corpse lives are balanced as intended. The difference is subtle but important
One is “we didn’t balance the numbers” and the other is “that’s not what the code is supposed to do”
I think some consideration should be made to awareness - they clearly weren't aware of this bug before making their statements. IMO they should patch both
The spectre bug was incorrect but GGG decided DD was balanced with the higher spectre corpse life in mind. It’s still heavily nerfed from 3.16 and they think it is in a good enough spot now, with that spectre life.
This is just a broken mechanic.
One of these is a deliberate balance decision by GGG. One is a broken bug. Stop pretending they’re similar. DD is fine, GGG likes where it is balance wise, get a new slant.
And they never, ever said no bug fixes - just that they weren’t fixing this one particular bug.
Looks like you don't actually understand the current issue with DD
Sure I do. Feel free to explain what I don’t understand.
i agree , this is degenerate enough ggg will likley change it, especially now its hit the reddit hive mind
a desecrate with more helth than other minions is one thing , using a skill to stack an un stackable debuff is another thing
not to mention the whole desecrate playstyle is clunky enough its never going to have a large percentage of players playing it past week 1, this skill on the other hand looks very playable
You say this but I see 2 sides arguing whether the bug needs fixing or not.
But it will have people playing it in the boss race and it'll probably give them a significant advantage over people who aren't using it.
Not if this interaction is in the game.
I think you overestimate the power reddit has
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why would there be a difference if they are bugs in the game? unless ggg wants to make more bugs a "feature" then both should be fixed asap.