To Christians: I'm trying to understand why the Old Testament is just stories that are clearly not true and the New Testament is meant to be factual truth.

I'm genuinely wanting to know how there is a justification for this. For the sake of argument - let's say the New Testament is completely true, with perhaps a few historical mistakes at most or maybe translation errors, but essentially we say can say "it pretty much happened" like that.

The Old Testament clearly isn't true - many Christians have even told me this. They're meant to be allegorical and the idea that there were giants, great floods, the Kingdoms of David etc is clearly symbolic in some way.

Why would the bible be written this way? What justification is there for this.

Please can I get answers from Christians and not atheists who will give the obvious answer. Thank you.

Posted Jun 16, 2012, 10:11 PM UTC

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philamonOPignostic•

Thanks for your answer. i agree that Genesis is probably the easiest and well known and is a perfect example of allegory - I've seen it woven at length and in perfect detail in to evolutionary biology with impressive results. When people get in to debates aver "how did Cane and Able have kids?" I roll my eyes. It shows a willingness to even want to understand.

It's more about the specific historical claims. There are relatively detailed claims to the Kingdom of David existing. His "conquests" and his pretty brutal activities. I always thought that if the bible is the word of God (whether written by men or not) then why is there such a mixture of apparent historical fact (which archeology has proven true) and clear mistakes of such a large proportion. Wouldn't that put the Old Testament at a reliability of, at best, 50%.

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philamonOPignostic•

Issac's son Jacob had a daughter Dinah. She was raped, in retaliation they demand she is married to the rapist, but first the whole town has to circumcise every male before this can happen - whilst the men are recovering, the brothers nip in and kill everyone, take the women and children for slaves, plunder it and demolish the town. There's several similar stories of mass death and destruction of whole cities.

Why would such a story exist as allegory. Surely the details involved are unnecessary if we are to understand any sort of "lesson". Why keep the OT in at all if we are to learn anything from it other than that people were borderline homicidal and not at least have a clear message that this behaviour is wrong in any way? It certainly seems to clash with the message of love and peace in the NT.

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In other words...

Just because 50% of a book of history is obviously bullshit to anyone with access to a library, it doesn't detract from it being totally awesome! Men wrote stuff down as history, and it was lies about history, but it's the history they wanted. And that's valuable.

Agreed. It is valuable to learn about the men who wrote it.

And what do we learn? We learn that those men were, like most cultures of the time, primitive, with a penchant for telling tall tales of colorful mythology, and a tendency to believe it wholeheartedly and slaughter others in its name.

In fact, for thousands of years, many sympathetic cultures did take it all completely literally. Some people in first-world cultures still take it all literally.

The Apostles took the OT literally. Jesus did. Paul did. Everything they said was informed by a belief in this ancient "history of Man's relationship with Creation".

For me, it is easy to see the gods of thousands of native mythologies, the wild aboriginal gods, the various tribal pantheons of animal/human/deity hybrids man has invented, as similar to the Bible - especially the OT and the schizo ravings of Revelation.

The Pentateuch reads exactly like the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is interesting that both books were considered by primitive cultures to be truth, good morals, and exciting literature, but I don't believe Gilgamesh took "all the animals of the field" on a giant boat to save them during a flood then landed on a mountain and sent off birds to find land.

I don't believe that about Gilgamesh, and you probably don't believe Noah did it either. But why do you dismiss that part of the book and accept wide-eyed and gullible the rest?

The OT is the first 3/4 of the length of the Bible. And it's all a hokey caveman-in-loincloth kind of affair. Like Aesop's fables, but a really poor attempt -- all vague and grisly -- What morals can be gleaned from these tales of war and genocide?

But then a magic man-god is born of a virgin to fulfill the prophecy of the ancients. Why on earth is this new chapter now so compelling and believable?

BTW: Not only did a slaveholding culture write the Bible, but slaveholders chose the books of the Bible much later. Please think about that. It seems an unforgivably late point that God started "speaking to man's heart" and telling him he shouldn't own people.

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We learn that those men were, like most cultures of the time, primitive,

ಠ_ಠ

The Pentateuch reads exactly like the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Not at all. The flood narrative in Genesis is very similar to a passage in the epic, and there are some interesting parallels with the roles of the serpent in each piece, but they are quite different works. The most striking differences being that the epic of Gilgamesh is heroic whereas the Pentateuch is largely concerned with Israel's story, and law codes.

It is interesting that both books were considered by primitive cultures to be truth, good morals, and exciting literature, but I don't believe Gilgamesh took "all the animals of the field" on a giant boat to save them during a flood then landed on a mountain and sent off birds to find land.

Gilgamesh did no such thing, Utnapishtim did. And maybe I'm unsophisticated, but I rather enjoyed reading the Epic of Gilgamesh.

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The Bible says in the latter times many will fall away from the faith, but even more will fall victim to the world's thinking. The Christians you meet do not read their bibles, and have little faith in God's people to preserve a true historical record, and if you did your own investigation, you would see that the Old Testament account is verified in history, in the records we have of other nations, and in archaeology. For example, the "figurative" story of Sodom and Gommorah. As figurative as they were, it seems Ron Wyatt's archaeology team have found them, including proof that they were destroyed by fireballs from heaven.

How did Cain and Abel have kids? well if a christian can't answer that, they should maybe stop reading the children's bible with pictures that tell them it was a nice story for children, and read genesis 5. I'm dumbfounded, genuinely.

In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.

Any questions on any of the stranger parts of the old testament? I'm surprised about you said about David'd Kingdom, most serious historians are willing to admit that the OT account of David'd reign is very accurate historically though they might question the veracity of him speaking with God. Can you direct me to some refutations of David's reign, as it is one I know to be generally accepted.

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W00steratheist•

if you did your own investigation, you would see that the Old Testament account is verified in history

I have and found very little. Can you provide extra-biblical evidence for the exodus? Noah's Ark? The flood? etc etc etc. It has very little to do with history, it is a fairytale with elements of reality interspersed, just like Harry Potter!

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namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ •

If the OT is not from God, why does the NT have any credibility, as it is based on Jesus fulfilling OT prophecies?

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namer98Orthodox Jew|תורה עם דרך ארץ|mod/r/Judaism | ★ •

Each word of the OT represents the attempt of some person to convey their best handle on truth to the next generation.

Can you explain this better please?

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code_primateI give up. See you on /r/badphilosophy.•

Christians don't believe "Oh the Old Testament never happened." I'd say most believe the vast majority of the events described actually happened, and a lot of it isn't even describing events at all. There are many literary styles in the Bible, which is really just a compilation of very diverse works. In the New Testament, a lot of the writing is either firsthand accounts or letters between people. I don't really think there's any debate on how letters should be interpreted. With much of the Old Testament, the books vary between poetry, history, narrative, etc. And sometimes, it's not clear how to best understand them. The creation one gets discussed a lot even though most Christians here come down on one specific side. But, for example, the Noah's ark story seems to be in a style that suggests Jewish rabbis modified a Babylonian story to make a point. It doesn't mean that the story, if understood correctly, couldn't tell us something about God though. On the other hand, there are some things in the OT that have gotten unexpected archeological support, specifically something about the kings of Israel, but I don't remember exactly. But to suggest that it is "cherry picking" to use what we know to try to figure out a reasonable idea of the purpose of ancient texts does not strike me as a compelling argument.

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philamonOPignostic•

Hmm - I don't know that MOST Christians think that - most of the conversations I've had people don't think that those things were really real. Maybe in America that might be the case, but then I expect a lot of those haven't actually read it all that well.

I'm not asking to cherry pick at all - quite the opposite. I'm trying to fathom why you would clearly plan to write a book, release it in two very distinct sections and two very differing styles - how do you spot a fake? It seems like poor planning.

A more intelligent way to do it would be to write the whole thing in one constant way (and preferably in one language). Maybe I'm wrong, I just think from a consistency point of view it's shabby craftsmanship.

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code_primateI give up. See you on /r/badphilosophy.•

I've had people don't think that those things were really real.

What, 6-day creation and Noah's ark? I agree, and I think that most people you would have a reasonable discussion with would too. And obviously there are other stories like that. Other than that, what were you referring to? Because I don't think I really listed anything specific. And there are some things even historians aren't sure about. I guess all I'm saying is we aren't saying certain things didn't literally happen because we don't want to take a tough position and say that a supernatural thing happened. We do that plenty of other times. We're saying it didn't literally happen because that's not what an intelligent reading of the text would suggest.

I'm trying to fathom why you would clearly plan to write a book, release it in two very distinct sections and two very differing styles

Well that's the thing. The Biblical writers didn't plan that their works would be part of a compilation like the Bible. It's like compiling an anthology short stories written by authors from Ancient Greece to the modern day and then wondering why it takes different approaches for each. And the point isn't that things are 'fake.' Not a literal historical account does not mean fake any more than using figurative language is 'fake.' It's more like "how do we gain a good understanding when the meaning is not straightforward." And the answer is understanding the historical context and textual characteristics. This is usually the work of scholars.

Maybe I'm wrong, I just think from a consistency point of view it's shabby craftsmanship.

But it's not like the writers of the Bible were building something together or something. It's an anthology, not a novel.

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philamonOPignostic•

But surely the idea was that the bible should exist - if it's completely unplanned then how is it that it's divinely inspired. I'm not sure what sort of Christian you are (not you, but in general) if you think the Bible is nothing more than a localised newspaper. Isn't the idea that it's the divinely inspired word of God for all mankind? What purpose does it serve if it just becomes irrelevant in less than a few thousand years. Pythagoras seemed to nail it pretty good with long lasting ideas around the same time.

If it is just the work of humans doesn't that reduce it's point - why not take out all the brutal murder and killing, or at least calm it down a bit so that the essential points can stand as a moral and relevant volume today.

Again - I'm taking the standpoint that the OT is allegory, I'm not here to get in to literal translation as that would be a different thread.

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code_primateI give up. See you on /r/badphilosophy.•

I don't think divine inspiration is any reason to think the Bible should be in a continuous form or written in plain language as an instruction manual in all parts. I take divine inspiration to mean that God used the texts to teach people something about Him. His purpose in inspiring a passage may even be different than what the original author of that passage thought the meaning was. Being an anthology by no means makes the Bible less valuable like a "localized newspaper." It just means we need to keep certain things in mind when reading certain things.

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W00steratheist•

But surely the idea was that the bible should exist - if it's completely unplanned then how is it that it's divinely inspired.

It is not, it's a mumbo-jumbo collection of tales written and re-written over ages, collated into the bible the first time in 329CE by Constantine in Nicea.

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HansMuller•

If you read the Bible's OT and NT carefully, you'll find that they are not inconsistent but compatable. the OT looks towards Jesus's coming, and the NT testment if also focased on Jesus's life here, and his 2nd coming. I personally think "cherry picking" is quite degrading and it makes christianity more ordinary

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[deleted]•

No no no no. It doesn't matter which book it's from. It's only the stuff they don't like or bullshit that they can't defend that is metaphorical.

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ShakaUVMmod | Idiosyncratic Christian | Fuzzy Logic•

It's only the stuff they don't like or bullshit that they can't defend that is metaphorical.

No. I think they're being quite serious when they made adultery punishable by death, even though I don't think we should do that here in America.

But things that are pretty obviously poetry and metaphor? They're poetry and metaphor.

You'd have us throw out all critical thinking with your bullshit criteria that everything be taken literally. Ignoring, of course, that no Christian (or very few) take the entire Bible literally, since the beginning of the Church.

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What do you base that on? So your subjective sense of what is supposed to be not taken literally is good enough? Also, for example If the Adam and Eve story isn't true why would Jesus die for the sin absolve us from the original sin? If you ignore all the nonsense (which is most all of the book) then you're left with nothing.

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ShakaUVMmod | Idiosyncratic Christian | Fuzzy Logic•

Man in inherently flawed, and we'll all sin at one point or another in our lives. This is Original Sin. Jesus offers us unlimited forgiveness for our inevitable sins, and encourages us to do better in the future.

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nbcaTheological non-cognitivist•

How do you deem what is a metaphor and what is to be taken literally?

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ShakaUVMmod | Idiosyncratic Christian | Fuzzy Logic•

A small modicum of common sense.

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nbcaTheological non-cognitivist•

Why then is there such a discrepancy between denominations as to what should be taken literally?

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thunderhammer•

The way I think of it, the Old Testament is sort of like Aesop's Fables: they teach you life lessons and how to act, as well as try to explain everything that happened in the world. Back when the Bible was written, they had no idea of Big Bang or anything. So they explained creation in what seemed like a logical way at the time. The New Testament is the story of Jesus' life. It is almost a "biography" of him written by many people. That's at least how I see it.

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philamonOPignostic•

I've tried to work out how stories of the Kingdom of David could be allegorical or symbolic, but there's specific Geography in there, specific number and ages of people. Most fables say someone is old not 127. Why talk about the kingdom of David as such a specific thing when it clearly didn't exist. If it did - no other texts at the time seemed to notice. If it did exist why include such specific accurate details with clearly dubious events (mass slaughter of people).

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cos1neKreeftian Scholastic•

I've heard that the extreme ages of early patriarchs was representative of their holiness rather than a physical age. Therefore they were specific because this to them represented a sort of "power level" where they could compare their legendary ancestors to one another.

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Goose_Is_AwesomeDai-Gurrenist (Humanist) | ex-Christian•

JESUS WAS OVA 9000!!!1!11!!!ONE!!

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philosophical_whaleThe purpose to life is the one we give it | Atheist•

I know that you are asking for christian responses, but regardless I feel I may be able to help you out. Since becoming an atheist I try not to keep religion out of my life or roam around everywhere and act like "that guy." I got to a catholic school so what I have been taught might help you.

The problem with the Bible is, like many books, it was written from the perspective of various writers. Yes through the divine inspiration of God, but the words written down on the page will be written in a way that the writer believes he will be best able to communicate the story/event. Another problem is is that when someone reads a book, they might read the book from a different perspective than you or I might have. But the reason behind this is that all the writers were writing in their own way/style, therefore no one can say that you can interpret the OT this way and the NT that way. No, the only way one can solve the problem of "which interpretation works" is by interpreting each individual book inside the OT and NT individually. The Bible was written with the concept of whatever God's message was for each story, but it was the writer's job to physically communicate that message.

Another point, the OT was written by a culture that predates the NT, therefore the difference in culture and times might mean this difference in portraying "Symbolism" and "Historical" events/stories. Again, one person didn't write the Bible, it is a collaboration of many writers and stories compiled of time.

I hope this helps, good luck on your search for understanding, and I hope this wasn't your average obvious atheist response. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to ask. Again, good luck.

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tnovaatheist•

Written by different authors at different time periods

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philamonOPignostic•

Then why not just exclude the OT? Why include it at all? At some point someone said there was a need to include an opposing method of reporting.

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ShakaUVMmod | Idiosyncratic Christian | Fuzzy Logic•

Because a lot of the NT references the OT.

If you removed the OT from the Bible, it'd be like having broken hyperlinks all over the place in Wikipedia.

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philamonOPignostic•

Heh. Best description I've heard yet. The Bible is a wiki.

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ShakaUVMmod | Idiosyncratic Christian | Fuzzy Logic•

Have you ever tried following the footnote/references on the bottom of a Bible page? You'll get 10 levels deep and forget whatever it was you were trying to research, just like with wikipedia.

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davorzdraloagnostic atheist•

NT isn't any better, really. It is extremely unreliable, and some of the most important teachings of modern Christianity are translation/transcription errors.

If you are interested in more of this, here is an excellent video on the subject by an actual Biblical scholar.

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Goose_Is_AwesomeDai-Gurrenist (Humanist) | ex-Christian•

I never claim that NT is fact, I take the entire bible as allegory.

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j0rdanenonreligious agnostic - from nondenom christian family •

If it's allegory, then is it truth?

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Goose_Is_AwesomeDai-Gurrenist (Humanist) | ex-Christian•

Well that then depends on the truth in question: factual truth versus symbolic truth. Now, it being allegory, I'm claiming that no, the stories contained therein are not factual. Some may be historical in nature, like those chronicling David's conquests, or the Exodus, or the biography of Jesus, but having been written down after a long period of oral tradition any facts have been skewed in an ancient game of telephone. For example, the horn that blew down the walls of Jericho may have just been a signal for infiltrators who weakened the wall just enough for it to fall. But that does not mean that these stories do not have meaning. They are meant to be values held by the reader, the nature of humanity, the nature of good and evil, etc etc. I mean look at Genesis- the first two verses describe two different accounts of the same event. Both are true symbolically, while obviously, as evidence suggests, neither are true factually.

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j0rdanenonreligious agnostic - from nondenom christian family •

Interesting, a book of fairytales. What makes it any better than islam? Or taoism?

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Goose_Is_AwesomeDai-Gurrenist (Humanist) | ex-Christian•

Hold on now, fairy tales don't necessarily teach a lesson. Also, fairy tales generally aren't based on events that actually occured (David's conquests, the Exodus, etc). And where does the bible being better than ANYTHING come into play in this discussion? That's not what the post is about.

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invisible86•

I have no problem believing the Ot to be literal, "clearly not true" means what exactly? without modern precedent? maybe unlikely? indeed but when discussing divinity why limit a Gods power to within our concept of feasibility? I have no problem with them also being symbolic or inidcitive of things to come. Why are giants, (not the fee fi fo fum kind, but 11 foot high men) great floods and Kingdoms of David that preposterous as to be discounted because of their inherent folly?

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I ,personally, see the bible, NT and OT as old stories with morals.

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