To Christians: I'm trying to understand why the Old Testament is just stories that are clearly not true and the New Testament is meant to be factual truth.
I'm genuinely wanting to know how there is a justification for this. For the sake of argument - let's say the New Testament is completely true, with perhaps a few historical mistakes at most or maybe translation errors, but essentially we say can say "it pretty much happened" like that.
The Old Testament clearly isn't true - many Christians have even told me this. They're meant to be allegorical and the idea that there were giants, great floods, the Kingdoms of David etc is clearly symbolic in some way.
Why would the bible be written this way? What justification is there for this.
Please can I get answers from Christians and not atheists who will give the obvious answer. Thank you.
Posted Jun 16, 2012, 10:11 PM UTC
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Thanks for your answer. i agree that Genesis is probably the easiest and well known and is a perfect example of allegory - I've seen it woven at length and in perfect detail in to evolutionary biology with impressive results. When people get in to debates aver "how did Cane and Able have kids?" I roll my eyes. It shows a willingness to even want to understand.
It's more about the specific historical claims. There are relatively detailed claims to the Kingdom of David existing. His "conquests" and his pretty brutal activities. I always thought that if the bible is the word of God (whether written by men or not) then why is there such a mixture of apparent historical fact (which archeology has proven true) and clear mistakes of such a large proportion. Wouldn't that put the Old Testament at a reliability of, at best, 50%.
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Issac's son Jacob had a daughter Dinah. She was raped, in retaliation they demand she is married to the rapist, but first the whole town has to circumcise every male before this can happen - whilst the men are recovering, the brothers nip in and kill everyone, take the women and children for slaves, plunder it and demolish the town. There's several similar stories of mass death and destruction of whole cities.
Why would such a story exist as allegory. Surely the details involved are unnecessary if we are to understand any sort of "lesson". Why keep the OT in at all if we are to learn anything from it other than that people were borderline homicidal and not at least have a clear message that this behaviour is wrong in any way? It certainly seems to clash with the message of love and peace in the NT.
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In other words...
Just because 50% of a book of history is obviously bullshit to anyone with access to a library, it doesn't detract from it being totally awesome! Men wrote stuff down as history, and it was lies about history, but it's the history they wanted. And that's valuable.
Agreed. It is valuable to learn about the men who wrote it.
And what do we learn? We learn that those men were, like most cultures of the time, primitive, with a penchant for telling tall tales of colorful mythology, and a tendency to believe it wholeheartedly and slaughter others in its name.
In fact, for thousands of years, many sympathetic cultures did take it all completely literally. Some people in first-world cultures still take it all literally.
The Apostles took the OT literally. Jesus did. Paul did. Everything they said was informed by a belief in this ancient "history of Man's relationship with Creation".
For me, it is easy to see the gods of thousands of native mythologies, the wild aboriginal gods, the various tribal pantheons of animal/human/deity hybrids man has invented, as similar to the Bible - especially the OT and the schizo ravings of Revelation.
The Pentateuch reads exactly like the Epic of Gilgamesh. It is interesting that both books were considered by primitive cultures to be truth, good morals, and exciting literature, but I don't believe Gilgamesh took "all the animals of the field" on a giant boat to save them during a flood then landed on a mountain and sent off birds to find land.
I don't believe that about Gilgamesh, and you probably don't believe Noah did it either. But why do you dismiss that part of the book and accept wide-eyed and gullible the rest?
The OT is the first 3/4 of the length of the Bible. And it's all a hokey caveman-in-loincloth kind of affair. Like Aesop's fables, but a really poor attempt -- all vague and grisly -- What morals can be gleaned from these tales of war and genocide?
But then a magic man-god is born of a virgin to fulfill the prophecy of the ancients. Why on earth is this new chapter now so compelling and believable?
BTW: Not only did a slaveholding culture write the Bible, but slaveholders chose the books of the Bible much later. Please think about that. It seems an unforgivably late point that God started "speaking to man's heart" and telling him he shouldn't own people.
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ಠ_ಠ
Not at all. The flood narrative in Genesis is very similar to a passage in the epic, and there are some interesting parallels with the roles of the serpent in each piece, but they are quite different works. The most striking differences being that the epic of Gilgamesh is heroic whereas the Pentateuch is largely concerned with Israel's story, and law codes.
Gilgamesh did no such thing, Utnapishtim did. And maybe I'm unsophisticated, but I rather enjoyed reading the Epic of Gilgamesh.
The Bible says in the latter times many will fall away from the faith, but even more will fall victim to the world's thinking. The Christians you meet do not read their bibles, and have little faith in God's people to preserve a true historical record, and if you did your own investigation, you would see that the Old Testament account is verified in history, in the records we have of other nations, and in archaeology. For example, the "figurative" story of Sodom and Gommorah. As figurative as they were, it seems Ron Wyatt's archaeology team have found them, including proof that they were destroyed by fireballs from heaven.
How did Cain and Abel have kids? well if a christian can't answer that, they should maybe stop reading the children's bible with pictures that tell them it was a nice story for children, and read genesis 5. I'm dumbfounded, genuinely.
In the day that God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and blessed them and called them Mankind in the day they were created. And Adam lived one hundred and thirty years, and begot a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. After he begot Seth, the days of Adam were eight hundred years; and he had sons and daughters.
Any questions on any of the stranger parts of the old testament? I'm surprised about you said about David'd Kingdom, most serious historians are willing to admit that the OT account of David'd reign is very accurate historically though they might question the veracity of him speaking with God. Can you direct me to some refutations of David's reign, as it is one I know to be generally accepted.
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I have and found very little. Can you provide extra-biblical evidence for the exodus? Noah's Ark? The flood? etc etc etc. It has very little to do with history, it is a fairytale with elements of reality interspersed, just like Harry Potter!
If the OT is not from God, why does the NT have any credibility, as it is based on Jesus fulfilling OT prophecies?
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Can you explain this better please?
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