Good day everyone, First I wanted to say that I am a Christian and I have been following this sub for a little while now and was wondering what is the one most compelling piece of evidence that you believe makes Islam true? I don’t want to start a debate, just a discussion. I may not be able to respond quickly as I work a lot as well as I want to look into each claim. I hope me posting this is ok . Thanks in advance.
Posted Jun 13, 2022, 3:52 PM UTC
A lot of the reason I believe is because of personal, subjective, spiritual experiences, so I know that’s not very helpful to anyone else.
When it comes to rational reasons to believe in Islam, here’s what I’ve got:
Monotheism is correct, because if there were multiple gods, then we would still need an explanation of how those multiple gods came to be. There can’t be more than one God who is the source of everything, in control of everything, the ultimate reality, the alpha and omega. And who is there to intercede with God except by God’s permission?
Islam is the biggest monotheistic religion. Christianity isn’t really monotheistic. (You’re probably already familiar with this argument, so I won’t elaborate on it.)
It seems probable, though not certain, that the biggest monotheistic religion is the one that’s most likely to be correct. Islam is a religion with deep and diverse rational and mystical traditions. It has brought comfort and joy to billions of people. I’m a fairly smart guy but not a genius, so the wisdom of the crowd matters to me as a sign pointing in the direction of the correct religion.
I don’t find any deal-breakers in the Quran. That is, I don’t find anything that’s flat-out self-contradictory or plainly immoral. However, I do acknowledge that some verses require substantial amounts of interpretation in order to avoid self-contradiction, irrationality, or immorality. But that’s OK. Interpretation is part of the Islamic tradition.
To legit play as the devil's advocate
One could argue hinduism is more monotheistic than Islam, since beneath the superficial understanding of Hinduism as the sum of different polytheistic cults and the obvious idol worship stuff, the concept of Brahman as the one entity that encompasses everything is pretty monotheistic. Not to mention, while Allah is often explained from an anthropomorphic perspective and most muslims see it being completely fine, the Brahman is truly transcendent as in He is said to have no emotional response (neither positive nor negative) to his followers or deniers.
Argumentum ad populum?
The same signposts and understanding of the nature around them can lead people to HaShem/Krishna/Ahura Mazda/Shiva as well. So isn't it a bit shaky grounds to base your faith on the whole "I feel comfortable believing it is truth, I am convinced as well, so it is probably right" type of reasoning since different people will end up with different conclusions?
Evolution, Eternal hellfire for disbelievers?
You can argue that Hinduism is monotheistic if you want. I don’t know Hinduism well enough to reach a firm conclusion. However, I don’t see how you can reasonably claim that Hinduism is more monotheistic than Islam is. Islam is completely monotheistic. The Quran is very emphatic about it.
Yes, I’m aware that the argument from popularity isn’t a conclusive one. I reject Christianity even though it’s more popular than Islam currently. However, it would seem odd to me if it turned out that there was only one true religion and it was actually one of the smaller groups such as Sikhs or Baha’is. Like, why would God spread His true message to such a relatively small group? I know none of this is conclusive; it’s just probabilistic.
I don’t really follow your third point, and don’t see how it’s related to anything I said. Maybe try rephrasing this?
I don’t think the Quran really denies evolution. Nor do I interpret it as promising eternal hellfire to all disbelievers or non-Muslims. “Kafir” is a more complex word than this, and there are good arguments that hell isn’t really eternal.
However, it would seem odd to me if it turned out that there was only one true religion and it was actually one of the smaller groups such as Sikhs or Baha’is
This doesn't make any sense. Islam was not always so big. Only a tiny portion of the world was Muslim a century after the Prophet. You don't have God's knowledge, so you don't know that Bahai won't become the #1 religion in a century. (If you have to resort to the "well actually a lot of people who didn't call themselves "Muslim" were actually Muslim because God sends prophets," this same argument applies to Bahai).
Definitely not resorting to that last thing you said.
As I said, it’s not a conclusive point. In the end, truth is truth, regardless of popularity.
I understand how one can conduce Islam being more monotheistic, but a similar argument can be made for other religions as well if one truly tries to find distinguishing criterias that sets them apart from other faith traditions.
Don’t Hindu gods also have emotions?
If Allah is our creator, and loves His creations, and is good, then why would we expect Allah not to have emotions such as love for us, being pleased and proud of us when we do good things, and being compassionate when we suffer?
If Allah were incapable of emotion, wouldn’t that be a real limit on Allah’s freedom and power?
Shirk means associating partners with Allah. Why would attributing emotions to Allah be the same thing as associating partners with Him? Allah can have emotions without also having partners.
So I don’t see how Allah having emotions is a flaw in Islam. I’m not here to argue about the pros or cons of Hinduism.
As to your other point, I don’t expect anyone to be conclusively rationally convinced that Islam is correct because Islam is popular or because it has brought comfort and joy to many. I think those things have some bearing on probability: is it more likely than not that Islam is correct?
It is rational to consider probabilistic arguments, especially when complete logical certainty isn’t available to us.
The first point literally defines the second most famous schism in Islam in the 2nd Century AH (Mutazila vs Others). Mutazila argued in the same line that, God can't have such and such human trait, and proved them from the Quran (by their interpretation).
So, I should say, on that logic Mutazila Islam is the most monotheistic religion.
“Hindus are monotheist” 🤣🤣🤣
Thanks for your reply! These are just my quick thoughts.
I completely agree with you that monotheism is correct. No disagreements there.
I don’t know how much people have looked into the doctrine or concept of the the trinity, but I do believe that it is coherent and logical. Christians don’t believe there are 3 gods, or 3 gods in 1. They believe in one God. So, I don’t think I could agree with you there. Can you explain how you think Christianity is polytheistic?
By your reasoning, if Christianity is monotheistic, then it would be more likely that Christianity is true. I’m not too sure if I would use this as evidence. Just because it is the popular opinion, it doesn’t mean it is the right opinion. And that goes for everything, including Christianity. It has to be based on truth.
I would have to read the Quran myself. My question is, how do you know that the Quran is true? How was it compiled? How was it preserved?
I would like to dig deeper if you want to. I look forward to hearing back from you..
I’m not going to debate the trinity right now. I feel like that subject has been done to death already, and it’s questionable whether it’s really an appropriate topic for this sub. I’ve seen approximately one million arguments about the trinity on the “Debate Religion” subreddit, and it seems to me that the trinity doesn’t hold up very well.
On the compilation and preservation of the Quran: It was widely recited and studied and taught during Muhammad’s life, and an official version was compiled and disseminated not long after his death. It seems nigh impossible to me that it was altered in any significant way. We don’t have to rely on any single person’s memory, or any single written copy, because it was already widely known during Muhammad’s life. So I regard the Quran we have today as being the same Quran that Muhammad recited.
I’m sorry if you thought I wanted to debate the trinity, that was not my intention. I’ll check out the sub debate religion to try and learn more. When it comes to the preservation of the Quran, I have heard conflicting events. Could you offer some resources on the subject. Thanks.
The Wikipedia article seems solid to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran
This is the problem the Trinity is contradictory
Trinity is not logical or coherent at all !
Can you elaborate?
Son = fully God Father = fully God Holy spirit = fully God
How many Gods?
That's what I've been thinking
I appreciate your intention, but Reddit is probably the worst place to field these types of genuine inquiries. You’ll get information from people that have never read a book, or sit on either side of the “extreme” aisle.
If you’re seriously interested in Islam — I would encourage you to pick up an English translation of The Qu’ran and maybe look up some starter videos from Hamza Yusuf or Yusuf Estes. Both are native English speakers, American, modern in their thinking - and most importantly - actual scholars. (Yusuf Estes has an entire short series on the miracles and evidence of Islam. He’s a former Christian preacher.)
If you’re looking for more of a debate, with intention of promoting Christianity— good luck. Some of us were born into that, and already chose Islam.
Also, in most cases, people leave heated religious discussions with reinforcement of opinions they already had.
Not the best way to learn, IMO
I understand that Reddit is not the best place to learn, I just thought that the people in this sub tend to be very gracious. I am not looking to debate, just to learn. You can’t always get all the answers you want just by reading some books or watching some videos. Sometimes you need someone to help clarify issues. Thanks for your help.
I reverted when I was 16/17. For me, it was the descriptions of nature in the Qur'an. Particularly the mountains as pegs, and water divisions.
In Surah Ar-Rahman, the Qur'an tells us Allah SWT "released the two seas, meeting [side by side], Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses” (Quran, 55:19-20). When two different seas/oceans meet around the world, there's almost an invisible wall between them that means each keeps their own temperature and salinity, density etc.
Science is in the Qur'an a very long time before we had the tools to understand the world around us :)
That was a large contributing factor for me as well.
Honestly the responses on this thread have by and large been very good.
Plain and simple - The Quran. It seals the deal for me in terms of faith. It's a perfect book with no contradictions. It's full of literary miracles (referring to the original Arabic version), and the flow of it is truly divine. Everything described in it makes sense. It clarifies how simple religion should be, and gives one major commandment - worship God without ascribing any partners to Him.
Monotheism makes the most logical sense when you look at the beauty and balance of our universe. And Islam makes the most sense of the monotheistic religions. And so for me, there's no doubt that Islam is the complete truth.
If you're searching for truth, I commend you :) I'd sincerely recommend reading the Quran in your own language. Inshaallah it'll reach your heart, and Allah SWT will guide you to Islam.
How do you prove the Arabic miracle argument to someone non Muslim, and especially non Arab speaking? And isn't the argument itself really subjective?
You don't have to do anything. Guidance is completely up to God.
You can lead someone to water, but can't force anyone to believe. No matter what you do.
If someone asks, say the Quran is a bonafide miracle, just read it. Then it's up to them.
And of course it's subjective, 8 billion people, 8 billion religions. (That is, everyone differs in the amount of knowledge, understanding, faith, confidence, etc.)
What Alice finds compelling will affect Bob differently. Everyone has to find their own way.
Each person has been given a unique path in life. Not the broad strokes, God is in the details.
When you say there are 8 billion people and 8 billion religion and every person has a unique path in life, are you saying there are different paths to God?
Yes.
I think Islam is the easiest, straightest path to God, but I'm biased.
Not everyone has the luxury of being born to a Muslim family and community.
And I doubt any 2 Muslims, or anyone, finds God the exact same way.
I am a Muslim by family. my opinion regarding Islam will be biased due to my upbringing. But, I can confidently say that research some of the other religions and philosophies deep enough to do some educated guess.
to me Islam is a treasure of divine knowledge. is almost the most naturally originated belief system. equally it is one of the prominent revealed religion, that acknowledges other revealed religions as a continuous chain if historical experience. Islam sufficiently answer the concept without resorting to too much interpretive leeway. And, by a stroke of luck (luck is from God), it became the most versatile practice across the globe without losing its monotheistic root.
I admire Judaism and Christianity, and consider them a sincere effort to reach the true religion. But, Islam gave me the most convincing answers without breaking any stream of logic and did it confidently.
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Thanks, that will definitely take a while for me to go through them and chew on.😀
I find the ‘mathematical miracles’ of the Quran very appealing, especially those put forward by Dr Shabir Ally. There are many, not just one, and are very complex. This proves that the Quran is not just any old book. I havnt seen any rebuttal to this that actually tackles the issue. There also other aspects of the Quran that show its a divine one
They exist in other books too, like the Bible for example. You should watch Shabir Ally debate with Kabane, they go over this argument and I didn't find that Shabir Ally could counter argue on this.
I watched the debate with Kabane. I didnt find Kabanes rebuttal convincing. The mathematical miracles of the bible have been debunked, for example Ivan Panin. There is noone claiming the bible to have mathematical patterns anymore who is taken seriously, because it has been debunked. The Quran on the other hand has clear mathematical patterns that are very advanced. And i will add, even if we find some patterns in the bible, we can say that these are the parts of the bible that are still in their original form and not corrupted. However Dr Shabir has done studies on the bible and found no such patterns. If i remember Kabane put some names forward saying that person x has found some patterns which Dr Shabir said he will look into. And to be fair i will ask Dr Shabir whether he has looked into this, so i hold my judgement on the bible at the moment.
And im sorry, other books donot have such intricate patterns. maybe at a basic level but not at the level of the quran (which claims to be a divine book). I know this was a point Kabane put foward but i wasnt convinced by it, and in fact i felt it was just an argument, for arguments sake (with all due respect).
Can you refer me to any sources that go in-depth of this Quranic miracle? By Shabir Ally and also someone else that goes over it.
It's fine if you have progressive inclinations currently, but you should probably crosspost this to r/Islam as well. For one you'll have more people and data to reflect on, but also I've seen them deal with this question many times.
Thanks
Qur'an tells me to read, ponder, observe and explore the world. I believe that Qur'an is in sync with the universe, as in if one interpretation of a verse is against the law of the universe, then that interpretation should be updated. I also think that Islam is not an organized religion.
In what way would you say that islam is not an organized religion?
The fact that Qur'an endorse people to read and think for themselves. No one has the authority to claim that their interpretation is right or wrong and there's no and should not be any institution for this.
Hello, I reccomend watching this video
Thanks, but that verse is taken out of context. If you were to read that whole section, you would understand that it is about Israel’s disobedience, not Muhammad.
Former Christian missionary and worship band leader, now Muslim revert.
Islam is logical. There are things about Christianity that have never made sense to me.
The descriptions of nature in Islam
We can question
4.the lack of contradiction in the Quran
That it was preserved in it's exact state since the first revelation
The demonstrable ways the Prophet and his companions helped their community and established s better social order that in many ways is better than the one we have now (Golden Age of Islam)
However there are issues I have with the institutions built around "Islam" (usually really strict observation+culture) which are similar to some of the cultural issues I had with Christianity.
In the end though, Islam is logical, and the Quran is true.
Edit: all the responses o nthis thread have been very good!
Thanks for your reply. I’m curious, more so because you were a leader in the church, if you don’t mind me asking some questions. How long were you a Christian? Did you get any formal Christian schooling?, What denomination were you a part of? Where did you go as a missionary? What were your major concerns with Christianity? How did you come to the conclusion that the Quran is true? Can you tell me what things never made sense to you as a Christian? You don’t have to if it makes you uncomfortable. Thanks.
Ok. I'm fairly tired ATM so if I dont explain enough feel free to message me.
Do read up on Southern Baptists, especially their founding. It's where a lot of this evangelical, prosperity gospel nonsense comes from. (No offense meant)
In terms of explicitly Christian schooling I went to bible camp, Sunday school, retreats. Catechism classes. Not mention hours and hours studying philosophy and theologians in classes and independent study. I was your classic bookworm.
This can be further broken down to theory vs. practice.
For example, the story of Lot raises a lot of questions when looking at the texts of the gospel and the treatises of theologians like St. Augustine and St. Thomas, not to mention Kant.
A. Why were the daughters sacrificed?
B. If the angels were so powerful, couldn't they have revealed themselves and out a stop to it?
C. The people of those cities were definitely guilty of heinous crimes, but what exactly were they?
D. Why was Lot's wife's punishment so harsh?
Other examples would be the Trinity versus the oneness of God, especially as it relates to the resurrection. I have more examples but this is getting long so I'll move on to the next point
As a musician and member of the college ministry, i traveled as part of a team and on my own throughout ArkOkLaTex, year round. This was over the course of five years, so between my junior year of high school and my junior year of college. We worked in the community doing outreach (example: building ramps for disabled individuals) and church focused. As many people I considered my role models, it seemed possible to be an educator and a religious leader, or a mental health professional/religious leader, etc. In essence i was being trained to eventually fill that role.
As part of being naturally curious (and admittedly stubborn when people would tell me things and wouldn't give a good reason) i read. A lot. As in I taught myself basic Latin so I could read Plato and Aristotle. I always wanted to be a historian, so this was a big part of it.
So rather than listening to what the news and popular media said, I went to the library and started reading as many different religious texts and commentaries as I could get my hands on, as well as texts written by atheists. The way I figured, I was given the capacity to think critically by a higher power, and the time to do it because of chronic illnesses, so it would be a shame to waste it.
So I read. And i talked to people. And I observed people's actions as well as their speech.
A particularly noteworthy thing for me was the fact that the Quran remained unaltered, in it's original language, from the time it was created. Of course there were commentaries on the subject (Hadith) but the core text remained unaltered. There were no Councils of Nicenae, there was no King James vs Catholic vs Revised, etc.
There was one thing. Thats it. Unaltered.
Which as a historian was very appealing.
Perhaps more importantly, while Muslims as in other groups had their extremists, their hypocrites, and so on...the methodology of helping others, of giving zakat in theory and practice was much different.
There is a humility in this action, a lack of ulterior motives that is greatly appreciated. And deeds done aren't solely done within the ummah, and aren't done with a heavy load of fire and brimstone.
There is an action, a kind word, from someone in a hijab, or someone who says In'sha'Allah, without the aggressive all or nothing approach that is so pervasive within missionary work. I'm not saying that the all or nothing doesn't happen within Islamic circles as well, just that that method of Dawah isn't as pervasive in my personal experience.
Furthermore, going back to theology, the Trinity is downright confusing, and can be somewhat polytheistic in practice as the three manifestations tend to be listed separately, with one invoked more than the rest rather than three as parts that are subsumed by the whole.
The subject of saints is a completely different thread
Tl;Dr: in research done Islam is more straightforward, in practice the method of Dawah is humble in many cases, the foundation (Quran) has not been altered, and in best case the needs of those with least outweighs those who are in performative mimicry if the former (less posers).
Important caveat: All of this is in my own experience. All religions and atheism have specific pitfalls that must be actively combatted (as can be seen on this subreddit r/progressiveIslam). Faith and theology has to be open to change (like acknowledging that slavery, permissable in most religions at one point or another, is no longer permissible). And finally that humans are ultimately flawed and imperfect creatures doing their best, so grace is important.
Thank-you.
You're welcome.
Do you have any questions?
This guys lecture sums it up really well. I think you will find answers to most of your questions.
Islamic theology appealed to my logical mind. I believe God to be the most logical, rational and just being.
God will judge on the Day of Judgement based on all our good deeds and bad deeds, no soul will be wronged. No one is responsible for the actions of another.
That there is only one God and we don’t need intermediaries to talk to God.
Same here