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r/sikhiism•
PodcastPoet

Sikhi is not anti-hierarchy!

I see this idea that Guru Sahib promoted an egalitarian system that is anti-hierarchy repeated over and over again and it's just not true. Hierarchy is essential to existence, perception itself is hierarchical.

Guru Sahib does not reject the notion of hierarchy, he rejected rigid systems in which movement up and down the hierarchy was impossible, Brahminism.

Ang 5

jis no bakhase sifat saalaeh

One who is blessed to sing the Praises of the Lord,

naanak paatisaahee paatisaahu ||25||

O Nanak, is the king of kings. ||25||

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Ang 263

naanak jan kaa dhaasan dhasanaa ||4||

Nanak is the servant of the slave of His slaves. ||4||

Ang 1

hukamee utam neech hukam likh dhukh sukh paie'eeh ||

By His Command, some are high and some are low; by His Written Command, pain and pleasure are obtained.

Hierarchy in this world is inevitable. One of the reasons the panth is so unorganized is because of this silly rejection of hierarchy. How can you humble yourself if you do not lower yourself, and say that is higher than me?!? There can be no humility without hierarchy. This is why the committee system gurdwara is a failure because they will not subject themselves to an authority above them.

Also, Guru Sahib is giving us a proper understanding of what the best hierarchy looks like. The best hierarchy is the one where the king acts as a servant to the slaves!! This is how the king frees slaves.

Posted Jun 30, 2022, 7:36 PM UTC

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MaknaBrog•

I agree with you brother. Hierarchy based on supernatural claims such as the karma of a past life or other nonsense is to be rejected by a sikh, but things such as the actions of a man or simple hukam do shape the world into a hierarchy, and that is undeniable.

Whats important is recognizing that hierarchies aren't unshakeable structures that cannot be changed or even destroyed, and that we shouldn't let them impact every single interaction in our lives. Hierarchies are useful tools, but they should not be worshipped.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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imyonlyfrend•

This is a very interesting point you bring up bhai poet. We are taught since childhood that Gurubaani promotes strict egalatarianism. Institute of langar is often wrongly used to support this belief.

But as you pointed out, thats really not what gurubani is saying. ##Abandoning what we have been told to believe by other people and discussing gurubaani to find the actual message is what this board is about. Its what Gurubaani asks us to do in community.

##VICHAAR

I agree with bhai makna that the heirarchies according to Sikhi are not set in stone. They are playthings for a Sikh who listens to satguru. He neither finds them daunting nor aggrandizing. If hes in a lower level, than he simply uses satguru to guide him to the higher level instead of pulling the higher level down to the lower level.

Of course, this can only be possible if society is built on fairness. So the Sikh fights for fair chance at upward mobility but never engages in class wars nor does he rationalize theft.

That brings me to another related thing in Sikhi. Does Gurubaani say that 'Ego' is bad?

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PodcastPoetOP•

Regarding your question about ego Asa Di Var offers an interesting perspective.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਆਇਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਗਇਆ ॥

hau vich aaiaa hau vich giaa ||

In ego they come, and in ego they go.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਜੰਮਿਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮੁਆ ॥

hau vich ja(n)miaa hau vich muaa ||

In ego they are born, and in ego they die.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਦਿਤਾ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਲਇਆ ॥

hau vich dhitaa hau vich liaa ||

In ego they give, and in ego they take.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਖਟਿਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਗਇਆ ॥

hau vich khaTiaa hau vich giaa ||

In ego they earn, and in ego they lose.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ਕੂੜਿਆਰੁ ॥

hau vich sachiaar kooRiaar ||

In ego they become truthful or false.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥

hau vich paap pu(n)n veechaar ||

In ego they reflect on virtue and sin.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਨਰਕਿ ਸੁਰਗਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ॥

hau vich narak surag avataar ||

In ego they go to heaven or hell.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਹਸੈ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਰੋਵੈ ॥

hau vich hasai hau vich rovai ||

In ego they laugh, and in ego they weep.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਭਰੀਐ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੋਵੈ ॥

hau vich bhareeaai hau vich dhovai ||

In ego they become dirty, and in ego they are washed clean.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਜਾਤੀ ਜਿਨਸੀ ਖੋਵੈ ॥

hau vich jaatee jinasee khovai ||

In ego they lose social status and class.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥

hau vich moorakh hau vich siaanaa ||

In ego they are ignorant, and in ego they are wise.

ਮੋਖ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਕੀ ਸਾਰ ਨ ਜਾਣਾ ॥

mokh mukat kee saar na jaanaa ||

They do not know the value of salvation and liberation.

ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਮਾਇਆ ਹਉ ਵਿਚਿ ਛਾਇਆ ॥

hau vich maiaa hau vich chhaiaa ||

In ego they love Maya, and in ego they are kept in darkness by it.

ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਜੰਤ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

haumai kar kar ja(n)t upaiaa ||

Living in ego, mortal beings are created.

ਹਉਮੈ ਬੂਝੈ ਤਾ ਦਰੁ ਸੂਝੈ ॥

haumai boojhai taa dhar soojhai ||

When one understands ego, then the Lord's gate is known.

ਗਿਆਨ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕਥਿ ਕਥਿ ਲੂਝੈ ॥

giaan vihoonaa kath kath loojhai ||

Without spiritual wisdom, they babble and argue.

ਨਾਨਕ ਹੁਕਮੀ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਲੇਖੁ ॥

naanak hukamee likheeaai lekh ||

O Nanak, by the Lord's Command, destiny is recorded.

ਜੇਹਾ ਵੇਖਹਿ ਤੇਹਾ ਵੇਖੁ ॥੧॥

jehaa vekheh tehaa vekh ||1||

As the Lord sees us, so are we seen. ||1||

ਮਹਲਾ ੨ ॥

mahalaa doojaa ||

Second Mehla:

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਹਾ ਜਾਤਿ ਹੈ ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥

haumai ehaa jaat hai haumai karam kamaeh ||

This is the nature of ego, that people perform their actions in ego.

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਈ ਬੰਧਨਾ ਫਿਰਿ ਫਿਰਿ ਜੋਨੀ ਪਾਹਿ ॥

haumai eiee ba(n)dhanaa fir fir jonee paeh ||

This is the bondage of ego, that time and time again, they are reborn.

ਹਉਮੈ ਕਿਥਹੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਕਿਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਇਹ ਜਾਇ ॥

haumai kithahu uoopajai kit sa(n)jam ieh jai ||

Where does ego come from? How can it be removed?

ਹਉਮੈ ਏਹੋ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਹੈ ਪਇਐ ਕਿਰਤਿ ਫਿਰਾਹਿ ॥

haumai eho hukam hai piaai kirat firaeh ||

This ego exists by the Lord's Order; people wander according to their past actions.

ਹਉਮੈ ਦੀਰਘ ਰੋਗੁ ਹੈ ਦਾਰੂ ਭੀ ਇਸੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥

haumai dheeragh rog hai dhaaroo bhee is maeh ||

Ego is a chronic disease, but it contains its own cure as well.

ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਜੇ ਆਪਣੀ ਤਾ ਗੁਰ ਕਾ ਸਬਦੁ ਕਮਾਹਿ ॥

kirapaa kare je aapanee taa gur kaa sabadh kamaeh ||

If the Lord grants His Grace, one acts according to the Teachings of the Guru's Shabad.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਕਹੈ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਜਨਹੁ ਇਤੁ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਦੁਖ ਜਾਹਿ ॥੨॥

naanak kahai sunahu janahu it sa(n)jam dhukh jaeh ||2||

Nanak says, listen, people: in this way, troubles depart. ||2||

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I always took this passage to show that both good and bad happen under the influence of ego and that it is not something that can actually be removed. Rather the key is to work with ego. Yes, there may be moments of transcending the ego, and perhaps great individuals learn to live in that state for longer and longer periods of time but for most people learning to align the ego with hukam or learning to recognize the hukam operating through the ego is what is key. I lean more toward the first suggestion rather than the latter. That one should aim at submitting the ego's will to the divine will. And through this letting go we can achieve the state of the carefree One

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UstaadJazzyB•

When u go against nature u suffer

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