Source
r/ultimate•
remleduff

When is a foul a foul?

I know there's a lot of controversy about fouling, some people think any contact and others would prefer some physicality.

To start some discussion, how about some "hypothetical" situations:

  1. You and your defender are both cutting for a disc that is far enough that a catch is uncertain, but you think you have a play at it. As you're running, defender trips up your feet. Foul?

  2. Your defender has better position than you, but you manage to go up and get your hand on the disc somehow. Contact occurs, causing you to drop the disc. Foul?

  3. Defender makes a huge play on you (hypothetical, remember?), but doesn't catch his D. On the second effort you have a shot, but he comes down on you preventing your play. Foul?

Posted Jul 6, 2012, 3:08 PM UTC

219
molisan•

This is the beauty part about ultimate: you decide what constitutes a foul. If the other player disagrees, he will contest and send the disc back to thrower.

However, there are a few caveats.

  1. Never, ever yell or insult another player when arguing a call. It ruins the flow of games. If you watch high level ultimate, there is almost no extended arguments - a quick discussion, then the disc is sent back.

  2. Ultimate is a non-contact sport, not a no-contact sport. This means, like basketball or soccer, contact happens and it is not necessarily a foul. If when going for a catch, you drop the disc as your defender bumps you it is a foul if the bump affected the catch. If you would have dropped it anyway, then the bump didn't affect the play and no foul should be called. I often see questions asked about contact in a hospital pass - in a crowd of people there is going to be some contact. Try to gauge whether it affected your catch or not.

  3. Ultimate is a game without referees, so it is up to you to be honest to yourself. You can make any call you want, and at most your opponent can contest, so you still get to keep possession, but at the end of the day, you will know that you cheated. Try to take a second to thing whether or not the contact affected the play or you just made a bad pass or a bad catch.

  4. Be careful calling bad fouls on players better than you. Often they will just step up their game and make you look like a fool.

5
sposker•

  1. Definitely a foul

  2. Probably not, because if he's making a play on the disc then he's entitled to his vertical space and he should call a foul on you for hitting him. However, if he's not making a play, or hasn't begun to make one when you get the disc, and you contact him, he shouldn't call a foul on you (though this exact situation happend to me 18 hours ago, I touched him on the way down with the disc in my hand and he called it.. what a load of shit.) this is a good example of the defender not making a play, and despite the contact and invasion of vertical space, there's no foul.

  3. This is incidental contact, the same as in your first scenario; incidental or not, if it affects the play, it's a foul.

Also, it's bad to abuse this but there are so many different sets of rules that the most confident player on the field can pretty much invent whatever he wants (i.e. "no, it comes in on stall 6 after a contested stall, read the book." if you didn't know, would you really challenge that?)

2
epicmoustache•

#1 - yep #2 - the OP didn;t specify who initiated contact or if either player is entering the other's vertical space and preventing the other from reaching up... so it's really hard to make a call on this from the description. #3 - it is NOT incidental contact because it affects the play (disc still catchable when contact is made). By definition that makes it not incidental.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
anthezium•

Its worth noting that sometimes a contested foul is the best/fairest outcome within the rules. Its been my experience that most of the time when light contact causes a drop, the offense thinks they were actually fouled while the defense thinks it was just their presence which jangled the offenses nerves. Thus number two would most likely be a contested foul.

1 and 3 are definite fouls.

1
remleduffOP•

I was trying to make the 1st one seem more ambiguous than my description actually made it seem. The uncertainty comes from the idea of needing to have a play on the disc.

If you would have had to make a great play to catch the disc, do you call the foul or do you just accept that you "probably" weren't going to get it anyway?

1
shhhhhgotosleepBANG•
  1. This is incidental contact, the same as in your first scenario; incidental or not, if it affects the play, it's a foul.

Please learn the definition of incidental. If it IS incidental it inherently does NOT affect the play.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
whostolethecookies•

I had a situation at a pick-up game that caused tempers to flare.

While on defense, my man cuts deep (I am trailing by ~3 feet) and the handler throws a full field huck. In a brief second, I look up the disc and get a general idea of where the disc is going to land.

I look down on the field and see an open lane to where I think the disc will land.

However, my defender initially misread the disc (which is what opened up my lane to the disc) and then while I am looking down while sprinting, he makes a sharp cut into my lane.

Our feet get tangled and we both fall down to the ground while the disc falls 10 feet in front of us.

He called the foul and I contested on the grounds that he wasn't going for the disc but was in fact bodying me out.

However, it brings up an interesting point; I contested the play on the premise that he wasn't going for the disc while subsequently blocking me from getting to the disc. However, I don't think he intended to cut me off, he just misread the disc, cut into my lane to the disc, and our feet got tangled.

TL;DR

The rules of Ultimate are vague when dealing with fouls. Sometimes it is hard to determine the intentions of others and you naturally assume the worst.

2
benderkw•

How about this, you are handling and fake flick, followed by a pivot to the backhand...two scenarios, 1)when you pivot to the backhand you contact your defender, foul? 2)as you are pivoting, the disc hits the defender and falls out of your hand, strip?

1
whostolethecookies•

Scenario 1: Think of the disc as an extension of your arm. Therefore, while you are in possession of the disc, any contact the defender makes would be grounds to call a foul.

Scenario 2: It would be a foul. For the UPA 11th edition rules, strips are considered fouls.

2
benderkw•

What if, in scenario 1, the defender says I initiated the contact? Or does this make a difference?

2
whostolethecookies•

If the defender is perfectly still and you move into him/her, it would be a foul on you. However, if you are both vying for the same spot and contact occurs, the foul is on the defender.

2
an800lbgorilla•

if the defender is perfectly still AND IN A LEGAL POSITION!. If he/she's within a disc space or straddling your pivot it's still a foul on them.

3
[deleted]•

Have you actually read the rulebook?

-1
remleduffOP•

Well, according to the rulebook, any contact that affects play is a foul, but that's clearly not what we call in practice...

If you don't think my situations are interesting to discuss, maybe you could suggest some other hypotheticals?

5
epicmoustache•

By rule, any contact that affects play is a foul. Some players will choose not to call every instance of this but they would be within their rights to do so.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
nonstop0•

Leaning - plenty. Shoving? None.

At least, this is how it is where I play. Different regions/countries have very different standards for what contact is acceptable. I try to use basketball as a reference for appropriate contact levels.

2
RiW-KirbyGrand Trunk•

Depends whether you're playing ultimate or mixed ultimate.

0
shhhhhgotosleepBANG•

Taking this comment seriously depends if you actually play ultimate or if you are a douchebag.

1