Hi all:
I'm new to synths and have been researching like a fiend. I want to keep my budget around $1200 or less. I've gotten things narrowed down to Moog Grandmother or the Behringer Deepmind 12. I need all of your great expertise to help me with my decision.
And...GO!!!
Posted Aug 11, 2022, 9:14 PM UTC
If you're new to synthesis, the Grandmother will probably teach you more.
Just be aware that it can only play one note at a time, whereas the Deepmind can play 12.
If you can play piano, you'll probably want chords, but if you can't, the arpeggios on the Granny are rad!
Well put.
How on earth would a GM teach him more? DM12 can do all of it, AND is polyphonic, AND has a wide variety of FX. GM is 10% of the DM12, then the learning is over. Whereas with the DM12 the possibilities are near endless.
The OP said they’re interested in semi-modular, which the DM-12 can’t do at all, and also the DM-12’s oscillator section is completely different and pretty limited (it’s well-balanced for the design of the synth, but it is limited compared to other synths like the GM or almost all of its competitors).
I think depending on what someone is after, the DM-12 can be a better first synth since it is an all-rounder workhorse synth and has a lot of modulation features and FX, even if I am not personally a fan, but it can’t do everything the GM or many other synths can do either, and the sound is totally different from a GM. With how accessible basic synths are in all forms, I think being in love with the sound and interface are both really important when making an expensive hardware synth purchase.
In my opinion, the OP should balance what sound they like more—what will make them actually want to use it—with what features are most important to them. Polyphony seems to be a big factor for them, so it sounds like the DM-12 might be the best choice for them of the two, but if their goal is to get into patching semi-modular and modular synths and learning that side of things instead, it’s a bad choice for that imo.
I had a GM for 2 months, and yes, the DM12 CAN do everything usable/musical -- besides some chirp and fart noises -- a GM can, thanks to its mod matrix(!!!!!), which is the equivalent to plugging cables, with the rather sweet advantage of being able to actually save and automate the sounds you create... Oh, the sound IS a bit different, as in you were very right to recommend the Model D from Behringer, because that covers the sound of the GM (and the Moog bassiness in general) perfectly with a spring reverb emulation or a real one if he wants that, for the fraction of the price... It is simply unethical to recommend the GM over the DM12 to anyone IMHO, who does not possess the knowledge yet to NOT buy the GM over the DM12. As someone who knows EXACTLY where the place of the GM sound is, even I would not touch that synth with a stick, but would use something (anything) else from Moog with a physical spring reverb after it...
I really appreciate being able to save and recall patches.
This is the reason why I have hesitated to add the Grandmother or the Matriarch to my synth collection. I’d get the Pro-3 before either of them, as badly as I want them; I’d miss the patch storage I’m used to with all of my other synths.
Learn the ins and outs of your synth and you will never need to save patches. Part of the fun of the GM is that you never know where it will lead you, it sparks your creativity and you will learn what each knob and slider does, without having to dive into menus. For the OP: I went to my local music store to try out the DM, and went home with the GM because I was so overwhelmed by the sound and the fun of using it. Never regretted it. I have the Minilogue XD for polyphony, and the GM for everything else
Learn the ins and outs of your synth and you will never need to save patches.
I can respect this attitude but hard disagree for one simple reason.
The more complex the patch the longer it takes to recreate and harder it is to make it sound identical.
Presets are less necessary for modular synths but for a first synth they will be very useful.
Fair point for a first synth. At the same time, there is something special about creating old-fashioned paper patch sheets if you want to recreate that superb patch you created when experimenting with the GM
If it’s going to be your first hardware synth, I’d recommend a monosynth first. They play fewer simultaneous notes than a poly, but mono synths typically do WAY more with that individual voice. I also strongly believe it’s the best instrument to learn the basics (ESPECIALLY the Moog), the Deepmind would take more conscious study to understand how to do its functions, whereas the Grandma simplifies it to an extreme without really weakening it. That said, I believe everyone needs a great mono and a great poly, and a couple of polys at that (a great analog, a great digital).
Deepmind 12D owner here. Honestly, it's a bargain for what it does. It's not without its quirks, but if you want an all-rounder synth that can fill many roles, and have narrowed it down to the GM and the DM, then I'd have to vote for the DM.
Subjectively, there's going to be more out-of-the-box sonic territory to expore with the DM, although the GM can act as the centerpiece to an entire host of modules (for near limitless expansion) if you continue down that path.
As a pianist/keyboardist myself, polyphony is important to me. I had originally bought the DM12D as an additional layer to compliment my Nord Stage 3's somewhat basic virtual analog synth section. However, if I could do it all over again, I'd probably opt for the Grandmother or the Behringer Poly D to play lead or bass alongside my Nord.
To my ears, I personally find that the Juno'esque boards like the DM excel at lush pads, drones, soundscapes, strings, etc., whereas the Moogish boards excel at fat & creamy basses and leads. Of course, each camp can do what the other does, but just as a simplified generalization.
Another thing to consider is that if you're playing live, and depending on the type of music, it could be an advantage or disadvantage to have either presets or patch cables.
In the end, it's all about the particular sound you're hoping to achieve, what gaps need to be filled in order to reach it, and what sound the instrument will coax out of you that you never even knew was in you!
There's also a difference in having an instrument that's more rudimentary and accessible, which begs to be played (GM), versus an instrument that's more complex and broader, which begs to be programmed (DM). I love both types equally, but as a first synth, it just depends on what your immediate and ultimate goals are.
Take my upvote, sir.
All great info! Thank you so much. I also appreciate the objectivity! Very helpful!!!
Depends what you need.
If u think u need to play chords: deepmind
If you are fine with mono lines: gm
But if you just dont know yet, i would go for the deepmind just because its kore versatile unless you plan to get eurorack later.
You do know that you can mono / unison detune the DM12 and it also has a mod matrix (aka. virtual patch bay with attenuation)?
yes I do
I'd check out the Behringer Model D and get an Arturia KeyStep if I was looking for a good introduction to analog synths.
Also the Deep Mind 12 is great but 90% of the factory presets are garbage and you're limited by waveforms. Expect to be spending a lot of time creating presets.
I actually own both. And I’m “relatively” new to all this (I have microfreak and digitakt as well). The answer to one or the other is highly dependent on the type of music you wanna make and what your plan is for possible future preferences. With that said, I would lean towards deepmind12 first. It is a great synth. Plays better with computer and midi cc, is polyphonic, comes with great built on effects. It is harder to use. So much so if you’re new I would initialize the preset, turn on the mode where the faders as is is what you get. And just fool around only in that mode with only one lfo and leaving out the mod envelop. If all of what I just typed goes over your head, then maybe start w grandmother, which is also an amazing synth, but it is more limited (which isn’t a bad thing….but it is a thing). Anyways, like I said I have both. Feel free to ask any follow up questions you may have.
Thanks so much for your input. Yeah, I'm really new to the synth world so am not even up on all the acronyms for things but am slowly catching up. I may end up starting with a midi keyboard and the Behringer Model D. I think this way I can achieve the Moog sounds while learning the basics at a lower price-point. I do want to get a DM12 eventually I think, and like the idea of a larger keyboard. I play piano and will definitely want the ability for polyphony and space to move my fingers. I appreciate all the help!!!
Another option for a good mono synth that will play nice w a computer or other gear, have presets etc is the dreadbox typhon. Again, presets and being able to control all parameters of the synth with midi are very nice, modern features, that the model d and grandmother won’t have. Both of those synths are still very popular, so it’s not the end all be all, but it is something you should consider. I can’t speak to exactly how beginner friendly it is because I don’t own it myself, but it is an amazing mono synth for the price.
DM12 not even a challenge.
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What are your thoughts running Arturia key step with Behringer Model D?
Personally, I'm not into mini keys, but the KeyStep is pretty popular with the modular crowd.
Since you have a piano background, have you considered Behringer's Poly D instead of the Model D / KeyStep combo?
The Poly D has a sequencer + 37 full-size keys with aftertouch. It won't have the outboard gear connectivity of the KeyStep, and its low-end growl may be just a tad bit tamer versus the Model D, but it has 4 oscillators to give you 4-voice 4-note paraphony.
The downvoted "2 DM12s" guy here -- it is also a much better option than the GM IMHO, due to the price. I have the Model D and the Keystep as well, and deeply love both. The Model D is IMHO the quintessetial Moog sound, probably the most recorded one as well, but then again: it is VERY limited in what it can do (basically a monosynth, with limited paraphony, and no polyphony without buying several units, and chaining them together (imagine: you would need to buy 12 of those to match the DM12 in that department, and they would take up the whole room), and no presets (but at least on this you can actually really quickly set it to what you want if you practice a few weeks), and no effects, no automation, no DAW control, nothing. That said, you cannot go wrong by owning the Model D or the Keystep, but please understand that the DM12 is STILL at least 100x the value and possibilities -- and don't believe anyone, who says it sounds dull or bad. Not a single serious person said that EVER, including all the top reviewers on YouTube and other sources -- the very same people the DM12 trashers look up and listen to.
Thanks for the great feedback!
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I think it could be the other way around personally. Polyphonic is arguably more versatile (in different ways of course, they’re very different synths)
I’ve got a Mother-32 and a Korg Prologue, I got the Prologue first so I could get a few luscious chords out, while still getting some sick Unison mono thicc’ness. My Mother-32 is basically my “Moog” sound machine, as Moog definitely has its own flavour. I love messing with the modular side of it as well.
Grandmother Dark is the next $1000+ synth on my list, OP! But only because I’ve already got a lovely poly. This probably doesn’t help at all.
Totally helps! I'm thinking polyphonic to start. I also like the bigger keyboard with the Deep Mind 12. Maybe I get that first, learn the basics and can add the Moog later on.
Get the DM12. You would sell the GM, and never look back, once you are done with it. You will probably never sell the DM12. It can do too much for the price you bought it for -- most other synths will look overpriced and limited in comparison.
They are super different! But if you've done research into both and the differences between them, and you're fine with either feature set, I'd say the Grandmother. It's very subjective though, and it depends on what you are looking for exactly.
I had a Deepmind 12 and was never a big fan. It could sound good, especially with lots of mod matrix work, but it was never an exciting synth for me to use. I also personally think the keybed is Not Great, and it was never fun for me to play, but I've also seen people say they like it.
It is nice for pads and strings though, and some standard poly keyboard sounds, and its generally thin quality makes it sit really well in the mix (and the bass boost option and/or chorus help with the thinness, just like with the Junos it's inspired by).
But the Grandmother would make me want to actually play it, ya know? The base sound, how the different components work together, the better keybed (based on my brief time getting to play one), etc...
They are soooo different though, again haha.
Like... obviously the DeepMind-12 is polyphonic (and the 12 voices can be layered for poly and mono unison) and the GM is monophonic. The DM-12 has a 49 key keyboard with aftertouch, and the GM has a 32 key keyboard with no aftertouch, but a better keybed imo
The DM-12 has patch storage, plus a computer program to manage and transfer patches to and from the DM-12, and the GM has no patch storage at all. The DM-12 has an 8 bus mod matrix with a lot of routing options, but the GM is semi-modular with 41 patch points. The DM-12 has a sequencer for modulating parameters, and the GM has a 256 note step sequencer.
The DM-12 has three envelopes (one assignable) and an LFO, and the GM has only one envelope and an LFO (though that LFO can also go into audio rate). They both have two oscillators, but both of the GM's VCOs can do triangle, saw, square, and pulse waves, while the DM-12's first DCO can only do saw and square / pulse, and its second can only do square / pulse.
The Deepmind-12 has a lot of digital FX, which can be used 4 at a time, and many of which sound really nice, and the Grandmother has an actual spring reverb, which sounds really cool, but is obviously much more limited.
The GM's feature set can be expanded further with other Eurorack-compatible semi-modular synths (of which there are MANY these days, including inexpensive ones by Behringer), while the DM-12 is as self-contained and/or connectible as any other MIDI synth (though its voice count can be expanded by polychaining it with another DM-12).
So, the DM-12 can do a lot more on paper. It's a good workhorse synth even if I wasn't a fan of the stuff I mentioned above (and that's just my opinion; a lot of people love the DM-12). If that's what you want, it's good at it, especially for the used prices it goes for (so cheap!).
But yeah, I'd still go with a Grandmother any day unless I specifically needed a polysynth. It sounds really, really good, it seems fun to use, it's more fun to play (to me), and the build quality seems to be much better.
It's really gonna depend on what you want though!
(also, for that general $1200-ish price range... if you do want a polysynth, then I'd suggest also taking a look at...
I'd go with any of those before the DM-12, personally. Though, yet again... very subjective! And they all have different pros and cons, and the DM-12 isn't a bad choice by any means.)
this penguin knows of what it speaks.
a++++…
I strongly disagree Take 5 and Peak? This is a highly biased, and totally misleading opinion, probably only because the DeepMind 12 was made by Behringer.
Meanwhile, I recommended they go with the Deepmind-12 and Behringer Model D together instead of the Grandmother.
I owned a Deepmind-12 for two years and used it a lot. I currently own (and love) a Neutron and multiple Behringer Eurorack modules.
There’s no reason to be rude or assume some other motive. The OP wants different opinions, and they’re getting them :)
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I cut the "rude" (ad hominem) parts of my original comment right after I posted it (check please). But I found it mildly infuriating that the GM is even considered between the two. Also, what I saw was you gave alternatives to the DM12, but not to the GM, where there are much better alternatives for what the GM does too, with patch cables and all...
You gave me a LOT to think about. I am really grateful for you taking the time to go so in depth, and you obviously know your stuff! I have a lot to consider. Before reading your post I was thinking DM12. Now you got me thinking about the Moog! I really like the modular aspect of the Moog. I do play keyboard fairly well and like the idea of polyphonic and the ability to make nice chords. But then again, the Moog just seems like a killer way to get into the ins and outs of the synth world. Lots to think about and thanks again for the awesome feedback!!!
You’re welcome!
One thing to consider, and probably what I’d recommend in the end for you (sorry to throw another option out there haha), is… you could get the Behringer Deepmind-12 along with the Behringer Model D, which is Behringer’s mini clone of a Minimoog Model D.
You could probably get both together for the price of the Grandmother, especially if you’re willing to get either used, and while the Model D doesn’t have a keyboard, you could control it with the Deepmind-12’s.
Now I won’t say that using the Model D will be the same experience as using the Grandmother. It also won’t sound the same, as they are both Moogy in different ways (the Grandmother is based on the old Moog Modular and not the Minimoog, and they do sound different)…
…BUT it will help you cover similar general ground, it’s a good learning synth too (even if a bit small), it can actually do more than the Grandmother in some ways (three VCOs, one of which can also act as an LFO, two envelopes instead of one, etc), and you’d still have the Deepmind-12 too. Those two would complement each other well and cover a lot of sounds.
The Model D is not as patchable as the Grandmother though, so it might be a no if the semi-modular aspect is the main selling point for the GM, but it does have patch points, and could also be used to interface it with other semi-modulars later.
Again, I think the Grandmother has a major fun factor to it that you’d probably find super inspiring, and that I don’t think the DM-12 has (and, again, it is different from the Model D too). But I also get wanting polyphony! Especially if you’re used to playing piano, a monosynth might end up feeling limiting to you, particularly if you’re not playing along with a song, and so maybe this combo would be a good compromise.
Some relevant vids that might help you ~
https://youtu.be/yAq3eekKVGY
https://youtu.be/ciVigeCZiXA
https://youtu.be/So8B6HJ2chQ
Thank you for helping me fall further down the rabbit hole!!!
Much appreciate all the details brother!!!
I hope you find the right thing that makes you really happy! :) and the more I think about it, and the more I read what others have to say, I think the combo above will suit you well!
And to reiterate in case I wasn’t totally clear, if you think polyphony will be important to you—and it sounds like it is—then get a polyphonic synth as you might, like I mentioned before, end up just feeling limited if you only have a monophonic synth, no matter how good it sounds. I feel like this is especially important for people who come from more of a piano / keyboard background, as you will likely feel yourself wanting those extra notes unless you’re playing strictly in the context of a band or arrangement. You can always get a monophonic synth later or alongside it, whether something self-contained like the GM or a small module like the Model D I recommended above.
And while it’s not my favorite, the DM-12 is a good polysynth that has a lot of nice features and possibilities to it, and sorry if my original comment came across too harshly on it or anything, as I didn’t intend that! It would be a good choice, especially for the price it goes for.
Good luck! :)
Please don't buy a monosynth that has very limited sounds. Please don't. I have 2 DM12s, and a shitload of other vintage and modern synths. If I could only have one, it would be the DM12. Why? Because fully analogue 12 voice Polyphony with built in effects, that's why. It is a Juno 60 style interface (I have one of those too), so it is SUPER easy to learn everything you could possibly learn from the GM. And it only doesn't sound amazing if you have no idea what you are doing. Also, every single parameter is available for automation. GM is super limited, for special use. You can learn 10% of what you can learn with a DM12 (and it can do EVERYTHING the GM can do, and MORE!) Please watch this, and reconsider. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzMX0wip1JY
This is THE video that got me highly interested in the DM12 in the first place! Thanks for the post!!!
On the topic of sound:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ynm44MeqPfk