r/AskHistorians•
Viae

What's your take on Postmodernism?

As part of my preparation for going off to study History at university this autumn, I've been reading a bit of historiography (What Is History by E. H. Carr, and I'm in the middle of In Defence of History by Richard J. Evans). Evans is quite strident in rejecting much of the postmodernist criticism of history. By this I mean the idea that true "knowledge" of the past is impossible, and that history is just textual analysis with no relation to a "reality". I'm interested in what the panel here has to say. How do you define postmodernism, do you think that it should be embraced, rejected or just ignored, and how has it affected your work, if at all?

Posted Jul 17, 2012, 4:34 PM UTC

1720
musschrott•

I think not many Historians will argue that history has no relation to a reality (however you want to define the latter). But - at least in German historiography - it is widely accepted that "History" is a construct: Bits and pieces (facts and sources) are put together (re-constructed, if you will) to give meaning and structure to the past. This construct gets more complete the more sources of differing views you use (multiperspectivity), but even using the same sources and data, two people can reasonably and justifiably come to different conclusions, different constructions (controversity).

This, of course, has something to do with the "death of the author" paradigm of history, as well as with human psychology: Even if a source (e.g. a letter of a historical person) tells us that the writer did certain things because of certain reasons, we can neither trust this person to tell the truth to whoever the letter was sent to (or at least not without further research into the relationship between these people), nor can we assume that the writer was even aware of all the facctors influencing his/her decision. You can take nothing for granted and accept nothing at face value; and motivation and intentions are the hardest things to discern.

What a laugh, though. To think that one human being could ever really know another. You could get used to each other, get so habituated that you could speak their words right along with them, but you never knew why other people said what they said or did what they did, because they never even knew themselves. Nobody understands anybody.

And yet somehow we live together, mostly in peace, and get things done with a high enough success rate that people keep trying. Human beings get married and a lot of the marriages work, and they have children and most of them grow up to be decent people, and they have schools and businesses and factories and farms that have results at some level of acceptability -- all without having a clue what was going on inside anybody's head.

Muddling through, that's what human beings do.

  • Orson Scott Card (hate the man, love the books)
22
dstz•

What a laugh, though. To think that one human being could ever really know another. You could get used to each other, get so habituated that you could speak their words right along with them, but you never knew why other people said what they said or did what they did, because they never even knew themselves. Nobody understands anybody.

I just figured out, about a week ago, that it was the whole point of Joel Coen's "Blood Simple" - and to a less profoundly interesting extent, of many of his following movies. I always enjoyed this movie but for me that was kind of striking (and late) revelation about it's core subject matter: nobody understands anybody.

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ViaeOPAnglo-Norman Politics and Economy•

Hmm. I'd take issue with the OSC stuff, but that's a good thing to remember, thank you.

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musschrott•

Why'd you take issue with the quote?

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ViaeOPAnglo-Norman Politics and Economy•

I suppose I just disagree; I think that understanding another human being is possible, or at least understanding them a bit. I'm not saying it's easy, mind, nor common.

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Crevecoeur•

I would argue that postmodernist critique has incredibly important ramifications for the study of history. Postmodernists ask difficult questions of sources and the practice of history. Their skeptical outlook forced historians to defend the foundations of the craft.

Derrida challenged the stability of facts, and forced historians to question how their perspective changed according to different situations. Foucault focused on the importance of discourse, especially the idea that history is mediated by the subject and the historian.

And speaking of German historiography, I think that the best defense of theory in the practice of history is in 'The Practice of Conceptual History' by Reinhart Koselleck. Like most Germans he approaches history in a Hegelian fashion (a contemporary digest of his work is a more efficient way of understanding Hegel, but he is a central figure in the philosophy of history). But a basic summary of Koselleck is that he draws the important distinction between history as a past lived experience and history as an academic discipline. Ultimately, what we study is not history per se, but interpret mediated sources to access a glimpse of the lived experience. As Gramsci said just because you can't create a totality doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

As regards the complete disengagement of the text from the reality, Koselleck says that it is vital to remember that those texts are created in a social world, and the imprint of the social world is inextricably contained within that source, but we as historians must view it obliquely to access it. So if I could respond to Richard Evans, I would argue that the discipline he advocates is critical, but to disregard postmodernism and its awkward questions is the ultimate corruption of the strict historical discipline that Evans advances.

1980s Postmodernism seems a little silly now, but its legacy has meant that history has become more rigorous in its research and narrative methodology. Don't be scared of theory, but remember that it must be contextualized properly with lived experiences.

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ViaeOPAnglo-Norman Politics and Economy•

That's a good summary of a moderate take on postmodernism, I think? Anyway, thank you, that's heartening.

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Crevecoeur•

I'm glad you found it helpful.

I think the best introduction to historiography is rather than read the polemic works of Carr or Evans or Koselleck is to pick up a couple historical readers. So an introduction to postmodernism, poststructuralism, and postcolonialism, and if any particular theorist piques your interest then pick up a short summary of their work. Because as much as I respect Foucault, Derrida, Barthes, Hayden White, Homi Bhabha, etc - their books are a nightmare to tackle. I think that the greatest injury to postmodernism is its own esotericism, and there is a strong intellectual snobbery against any one who deigns to have the work explained plainly to them. Ultimately, great ideas are often not explained very well.

5
Franktrick•

Well, you are not necessarily preparing for reading the postmodernist critiques by their enthusiasts (even though EH Carr is a straight up baller, love that last chapter on progress). I love postmodernist thought, though I believe it should be used reflectively and critically, rather than placed front and centre in the construction of a historical narrative. We should, as producers of knowledge, seek to understand the discourses we live through by unsettling them through examination of the past. It's a contradictory position, one which seeks to recreate the past in a fashion which is a unsettling of the present, and vis versa.

Or, with less gobbledegook, postmodernism is a useful way to critically doubt the automatic suppositions we make about people and the societies they inhabit, past or present.

On the hardest edge, supporters and detractors point out that there is a rejection of true representation. This is largely a criticism that is beside the point. It's not that true knowledge is being created in the production of history (a largely discredited paradigm to all but the most stodgy social historians), but that we must be aware of a the ways in which we structure meaning, and the lineage (usually called the geneology) of these structures. This applies to both the organization of knowledge (causational formulas, fact claims, etc) and the transmission of knowledge (the archive, the library, narrative forms, etc). Theirs are lessons that I believe all historians should be aware of, whether they deploy the postmodernist's tactics in a obvious manner or not. Speaking as a historian in a Marxist tradition, I find very little that conflicts with my creation of history on a deep level. Though I admit I find much more philosophically appealing in the critical tradition of postmodernism, the practical organization of history according to Marxist methodology is my chosen mode of representation.

For recommended reading, I am going to suggest three authors which represent (not make, important distinction) the most important contributions to my take on modern Postmodernist historiography:

  1. Michel Foucault, the most hated Frenchman since Pétain. He's not as hard to understand as you've been led to believe. Read Truth/Power, which is a collection of conversations with him on his worldview. Read the first part of the History of Sexuality and Discipline and Punishment (paying special attention to panopticism) to see this type of philosophy in action.

  2. Hayden White, who draws attention to the form and function of narrative storytelling and analyzes it's tropes in a deep (albeit unsettling) manner. Consult Metahistory first, and then The Content of the Form. You will find a lot of convergence with White's thinking and Marshall McLuhan's.

  3. Frank Ankersmit, loopy dutchman who takes much of what White says and runs with it, applying what we have learned about the construction of historical knowledge and more or less turns it into useful advice on what to do with it. In a nutshell, what he suggests is that a plurality of representation is preferable to weighting one perspective over another. There is much in common with gender/identity theory, from what I recall. While I'm not as familiar with Ankersmit as the other two, remember he was the most proscriptive of the bunch. I also read Historical Representation (2001) a long while back, so forgive me if I'm a little hazy on 'ol Frank.

Famous detractors of postmodernism are abound, but if you want some hilarious (and not altogether unwarranted) criticism of the PoMos, check out Brian Palmer's Descent into Discourse. Not all Canadians are friendly people. For something a little more constructive, I would suggest consulting Alan Megill's Historical Knowledge, Historical Error, particularly his chapter on causation. After reading it, you will be hyper-aware of the philosophical tradition that the 'sloppy historians' he criticises come from.

10
ViaeOPAnglo-Norman Politics and Economy•

Beautiful, I'd bestof this if I thought it would be appreciated by the general redditing population (elitism five!). Carr's last chapter on progress made my hairs stand on end, and when I read "and yet- it moves" I wept tears of sorrow that I would never pen anything halfway as awesome.

Evans reply to your second paragraph would be that a good historian does that anyway, and has been since world war one. Is this accurate?

To what extent is historical truth non-existent, though? Are you/a postmodernist you willing to assert that, say, the Romans existed (where Romans are a group of people with control and inhabitance over and in the city we call Rome, and good god it was hard not to put quotation marks around every third word there.)? Or is it a blanket ban on anything except the present? Or are you saying I'm completely missing the point here, and should ignore that bit and focus on what postmodernism can teach me about textual analysis and the transmission of knowledge? I just have trouble agreeing with the idea that the past doesn't exist independently, or is that an idea I've misinterpreted?

I realise I'm probably talking about something which I don't understand in any way, shape or form, but it's hard to find someone who seems willing to talk about postmodernism positively, so I'm going to fire questions at you scatter-gun style. Please do inform me if I'm asking the wrong ones, and thank you very very much for both the post and the recommendations, I'll try and pick those up.

2
Franktrick•

Thanks for your praise!

I would definitely agree that postmodernism hardly invented the perspectives which many attribute to it. I would more look at PoMo as a response to more fully articulate and enunciate the growing doubts about the traditional Rankean historical traditions, as well as the breakdown of social historical tropes. For an interesting first person account of this in action, read Geoff Eley's autobiography, A Crooked Line. The man's a tit in real life, and was a real disappointment to meet him, but his writing is definitely captivating.

I would, however, doubt that the positivistic tendencies of historians fully disappeared. One needs only look at the recently emerging European tradition of Environmental History, or even at the residue of how we mobilize proof (footnotes, the weight given to material textual evidence, etc). I would say furthermore that what the Postmodern challenge is tasking the historian to do is something active: to aggressively assault what we believe automatically to be true or sacrosanct.

Moreover, the key claim of the Postmodern historian is not only that we must disrupt previous paradigms of thought, but also the acceptance that we do so by creating structures which replace them. This is what pisses off Marxists the most about Postmodernism. But this is not an argument for radical equality of perspectives, necessarily (what Charles Tilly calls 'Softcore Solipsism'), but rather an acceptance that the historian is not removed from the craft of knowledge production. Their fingerprints are all over the products they create, much like the reader's fingerprints are all over the products that they read, and interpret (and, thus, the knowledge they produce in the process).

To your question about the Romans, the Postmodernist might reply that it's absurd to assume that the Romans who existed in the historical past are entirely figments of our imagination. Rarely do you find a Postmodernist which rejects entirely the existence of the real. Be they might respond that the historians, or anyone else for that matter, is entirely unequipped to represent 'The Romans' in a true or sublimely accurate fashion. In other words, they would ask us to consider how the Romans stand in our imagination. The fact the the Romans existed is actually irrelevent. How we represent the Romans, and what effect does the narrativization of Roman history have on our understanding of human society, is more a question for the Postmodernist to answer.

4
musschrott•

You should apply for flair if you haven't already.

I also love your use of the the term "straight up baller" in a scholarly discussion of post-modernistic critique of the historical method. 10/10.

1
ViaeOPAnglo-Norman Politics and Economy•

So in reference to your third paragraph, it's a philosophy which calls for perpetual revolution in our understanding of history? Thanks for your follow up, I feel like I've learned a good deal about it.

1
hardman52•

I would suggest consulting Alan Megill's Historical Knowledge, Historical Error, particularly his chapter on causation.

Which chapter exactly?

2
Franktrick•

Oh shoot, I should have said epistemology, not causation. My bad. I meant chapter 6, "What did the Neighbors know about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings," as well as his rather vitriolic introduction.

Makes me look like the sloppy one!

edit - I should also say that Megill in no way (to my recollection) mounts an attack on Postmodernism, per se. But I believe his epistemological/methodological stance is very far away from postmodernist historical practice.

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pentad67Anglo-Saxon England•

In addition to the other works mentioned here, I found this book an excellent summary of the study of history and the influence of postmodernism.

1
cassander•

It's nonsense. There is some objective sequence of events that happened for specific reasons. The fact that it is difficult, if not impossible, to reconstruct does not make the quest for it meaningless anymore than Heisenberg implies all physics is meaningless.

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darth_nick_1990•

During my first year at university we were encouraged to explore many different disciplines of history, most of which were alien to me before hand. Postmodernism was one of the harder disciplines I looked into, and remembering E. H. Carr not to be terribly helpful in clearing the matter up. I would greatly recommend 'Studying History' by Jeremy Black and Donald M. Macraild. This book was part of the suggested reading and very simply covers the majority of historical trends e.g. Whig, Marxist, Revisionist etc.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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ViaeOPAnglo-Norman Politics and Economy•

Eh?

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