Police sorry for 'appalling' rape campaign poster
uk.news.yahoo.com/west-mercia-police-sorry-fo...
uk.news.yahoo.comPosted Aug 3, 2012, 4:10 PM UTC
20114
uk.news.yahoo.comRape is always caused by rapists. That needs to be remembered at all times. But the inescapable reality is that some rapists will actively seek out people who are unable to resist. In addition, some people might have sex with you believing that you are consenting when you are actually too drunk to give meaningful consent at all.
These things can be made less likely to happen if you drink less, so making people aware of the possible risks of getting too drunk is therefore a sensible thing to do. That much is not victim blaming - it's just sensible advice.
I think that's all the police were genuinely trying to do here, but I do think that the ad completely missed the mark. If you're going to give that sort of advice, you need to make it very clear that only rapists are to blame for rape. You need to ensure that people know that you're not saying 'if you drink too much it's your own fault if you get raped'.
The police messed this up. Badly. But I do think their intentions were good.
--edit--
Just to be clear, since it has come up in the rest of this thread/topic, I very much acknowledge that rape culture is a real thing. I know that some people question it, and I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just giving the police the benefit of the doubt in this particular case.
23
Yeah, I don't think its indicative of 'rape culture', it was just inappropriately and insensitively phrased.
4
Ok, so I'm genuinely curious here, if the police messed up how exactly do you phrase the advice?
1
"Don't rape people, you asshole."
4
slow clap
1
Honestly, I'm not even sure that an ad campaign is the way to do it at all. But if they're going to use one then they should have said something that made it obvious that the message is 'we know it's never your fault, but here are some things you can do that might limit your risk a bit'.
1
So the police should stop advising people on ways to limit their vulnerability to crime...
It's no good saying the message should communicate a different message without demonstrating that this is actually possible in a medium which is available to them. I mean, so you're suggesting the poster should be:
"RAPE! We know it's never your fault, but you'll be less at risk if you don't get blind drunk and pass out with a bunch of strangers." Yeah, I mean it's too long won't fit on a poster and if you could no one would read it, but I'm sure the feminists will be happy (like hell).
2
It's no good saying the message should communicate a different message without demonstrating that this is actually possible in a medium which is available to them.
Except that there are other media available. Pamphlets, seminars, websites, the list goes on. You simply must treat rape victims with more tact than you do victims of other crime, because of the history of bad treatment and the substantial increase in the risk of mental health issues that come with being a rape victim.
0
"Protect yourself from rapists. Stay sober"
1
The police messed this up. Badly. But I do think their intentions were good.
No they didn't. I can't think of any other way to give out this advice - and this is the sort of advice I want the police to give out. Just like I expect them to give out advice like locking your windows and doors and not leaving valuables in clear sight in an empty car.
-7
I have no problem with this sort of advice being given out, but rape and sexual assault have to be treated differently than other crimes, because there is a hell of lot of precedent of victims being treated as though it's their fault, or as if they're lying, or as if they simply must be mistaken. Reports of rape and sexual assault are often not taken nearly seriously enough.
When you factor in the mental health issues that often stem from being a victim of rape and sexual assault, and the fact that many such attacks are not reported at all (possibly for fear of being judged, treated like a liar, and so on) then it becomes clear that if you're going to give advice to people about minimising their risk factors, then you'd better make damn sure that they understand that you're not blaming them for being attacked.
With rape and sexual assault, you simply must be a little bit more gentle with the way you get that message across, because you're dealing with a completely different situation than you are when dealing with burglary and car theft. This ad campaign didn't do that, and that's why it was messed up. The advice is generally sound, but the way that advice was given didn't take into account the need for delicacy.
7
[...] rape and sexual assault have to be treated differently than other crimes, because there is a hell of lot of precedent of victims being treated as though it's their fault, or as if they're lying, or as if they simply must be mistaken. Reports of rape and sexual assault are often not taken nearly seriously enough.
To me that sounds like you are just saying "This used to be done badly, so to balance it out we're going to do it badly in the opposite way - it's not enough to just do it correctly from now on."
I don't think the police should be given a hard time for Victim Blaming when all they did was make a statement that was mistaken for victim blaming.
3
To me that sounds like you are just saying "This used to be done badly, so to balance it out we're going to do it badly in the opposite way - it's not enough to just do it correctly from now on."
Then you think that treating victims of rape and sexual assault with a little bit of human dignity is 'badly the other way'.
3
Huh? The police also tell us to keep valuables in our cars out of sight and not to walk around dark alleyways holding expensive phones. Doesn't mean they condone robbery.
9
As far as I'm aware people who report car theft don't get cross-examined on the witness stand about whether they are sure they'd not consented to having the windows of the car bashed in and their radio nicked.
And quite often those posters are framed as "beware! pickpockets operate in this area!" and stuff. Whereas I've never seen a "beware! rapists operate in this area" one.
31
Also, you can leave home without your valuables, or put them someplace secure. Women can't do that their vaginas.
21
Well, technically some women have prosthetic vaginas and were born male.
-7
Yeah urr, you realize they still don't just pop out like a fleshlight right?
2
Whilst I agree you can't draw every parallel between the two crimes, I would suggest that it is reasonable to advise vigilance and caution in either case.
And actually, I do have an example from a friend who was mugged near where I live in London; he was walking with a friend down a street during daylight when they were approached by a hooded youth who demanded their wallets. They handed them over and then called the police. The youth in question was not convicted as the prosecution could not prove that the money was not taken without consent!
On another note, I was robbed a couple of months ago for £100 at a cashpoint late at night whilst drunk. The first thing the police officer asked me when I was giving my statement was "what were you doing taking out £100 in the middle of the night whilst drunk?" And honestly, he had a point.
2
While many of the complaints are making general points, I think it is the particular wording of this poster that has drawn ire.
5
To be fair... If it turned out that once in a while people had concented to getting their windows broken but were just lying about it, you would start to see people being cross examined for reporting their windows being broken.
1
Can I ask what relevance being cross examined about consent has?
0
There is a culture of victim-blaming in rape which together with other factors means there are very poor outcomes in terms of successfully prosecuting this very serious crime. These posters perpetuate the victim-blaming.
There is not a culture of victim-blaming for car theft resulting in people not being taken seriously when they report car theft. You might declare that warning signs are illogical on the same basis, but it's not comparable.
16
Is there a culture of victim blaming? Just got your word to go on here
Edit: down votes for asking questions? "Well thats as good as disagreeing!"
-3
[deleted]
1
Wait, what? Cross-examining a woman who is accusing someone of rape is victim blaming?
-1
As far as I'm aware people who report car theft don't get cross-examined on the witness stand about whether they are sure they'd not consented to having the windows of the car bashed in and their radio nicked.
That is the worst analogy I've seen in a very very long time.
-2
[deleted]
3
A committee of people who havent made an arrest in a decade.
11
[deleted]
2
Yup, and that also explains why nobody during the process said "Hang on a minute, shouldn't we consult victim support groups/isn't non-consensual sex always rape?", or that nobody listened to them.
Jump on the anti-binge-drinking waggon, thought the middle-aged men in the office, and we'll be safe. Thank goodness it didn't turn out that way.
4
"Life on Mars" in real life, the police were thinking in the 1970s when it was women's fault and no didnt always mean no..... Drinks don't rape people, people do...
1
I dont really see this as "appalling" - suggesting that people drink sensibly and get home safely sounds like fairly good advice. Badly presented perhaps, but "appalling"? Not really.
7
It's not suggesting 'people' drink sensibly and get home safely, it's suggesting women do that, not men. It's blatantly a veiled attempt at victim blaming.
11
It's blatantly a veiled attempt at victim blaming.
I can just imagine the scene at one of the police committees in charge of community engagement of a bunch of people gathered around to talk about rape within the force and what could be done to reduce it via a public information campaign about the danger of drinking too much and leaving yourself vulnerable blame women for getting raped.
Seriously, Hanlons razor.
it's suggesting women do that, not men.
Rape statistics show that women are more likely to be raped than men.
8
Actually you'd be surprised at the victim blaming culture within the police force (reflecting society as a whole) so if you'd researched this and read all about it you wouldn't be surprised at all. Yes it's essentially safety advice, but the message underneath the simple wording is that if you get drunk you will be (or should be in some peoples eyes) raped. That's not the right message imo.
0
To give a perspective from the other side of the coin, if you always leave your house unlocked and then get all your possessions taken in a burglary, would you still expect your house and contents insurers to pay out because it was entirely the fault of the burglar? This ad campaign may have been badly executed, but its the equivalent of a police campaign to educate a home owner on what steps to take to reduce the chance of a break in. Giving advice to not overdo the drinking and to try and get home safely seems like a good idea.
4
Your instance is also victim blaming, although with perhaps more merit. A woman who gets drunk is not an advertisement for rape anymore than leaving your door unlocked means someone has the right to steal your property.
6
drinking sensibly is fine but why tie it to rape? It is appalling.
-3
Yahoo? Ugh
1
Iv been thinking about this over the last couple of days, I'm not sure where I stand on the whole victim blaming analogy.
The reason I'm unsure about it is there are countless examples where the victim of a crime (be that minor or major) could, using common sence not put themselves in danger In the first place. That does not mean they deserved the crime to happen to them, but I think it's healthy to admit our society is not perfect, and some people are potentially rapist or worse.
It seems to me that ignoring these horrible facts can contrabute to a horrible outcome, and we shouldn't be afraid, or apologetic to admit that.
1
[deleted]
0
It's victim blaming for one, its saying "don't be a woman and drink, or you will get raped" which simply isn't true, rapists cause rape, it doesn't matter what women do.
38
It's victim blaming for one, its saying "don't be a woman and drink, or you will get raped" which simply isn't true, rapists cause rape, it doesn't matter what women do.
Actually, it does. If we assume that rapists are out there and that isn't going to change any time soon, then the only thing women can control is their exposure to that risk. If two women have the same night, one takes care not to drink so much that she doesn't know what she's doing, sticks with her friends, and then gets a taxi home; the other one gets absolutely hammered, ditches her friends, and decides to stagger down dark streets alone to get home. One of those women is more at risk than the other. Is it her fault if she gets raped/robbed/beaten up? No more than its my fault if i get blind drunk and decide to walk home, then get mugged on the way. Like her, I chose to put myself in a position where the risk was massively increased.
This isn't about victim blaming, it's about not assuming the rest of the world will take responsibility for your personal safety.
3
[deleted]
1
It's victim blaming for one, its saying "don't be a woman and drink, or you will get raped"
No it says quite clearly: "Don't leave yourself more vulnerable to regretful sex or even rape. Drink sensibly and get home safely."
-4
No it isn't. Just becase you've read the phrase "victim blaming" doesn't mean you have carte blanche to use it anytime you feel like, especially when it isn't applicable here.
It's that dumbass mindset that's created this total non story in the first place.
Edit: I see the pseudo intellectual retard PC crowd have arrived. And a hearty fuck you to them all.
-5
No, it's good advice for those of us who live in the real world. The fact is there are bad people out there who will take advantage of people when they are vulnerable. If that poster stops someone from being raped then it's a good thing surely?
-9
American here - we have the same sort of controversy. Identical really.
Anyway, the reason these victim-blaming campaigns are seen as appalling, IMO, is because there is never a "don't rape" campaign. The only campaigns you ever see are "don't get raped." Why are they always ONLY talking to the victim, and never the perpetrator? If it were a more even balance - some signs give tips on how to avoid getting raped, other signs give warnings not to rape - then maybe it wouldn't be so appalling. But when the discourse is ONLY talking to the victim, then it just feels like the victim is the one to blame. As if the victim is the only one involved.
23
There is never a "Don't rape campaign"
I kind of hoped that went without saying. I saw something questionable happen once. I wouldn't have questioned it if alcohol wasn't involved. Actually, come to think of there are don't rape campaigns. At least in the UK.
3
There are tons of 'don't rape' campaigns... including this very one. Not that a rapist is going to not rape someone just because some poster tells them not to though.
-11
Actually in the "real world", women are far more likely to be raped by someone they know, or in their own house.
14
Absolutely agree, I had my phone stolen when I was drunk. There were other people around but the thief targeted me and had no problem taking my phone off me without me realising until a good while later, if I wasn't drunk I doubt I would've been targeted or at least could've put up some resistance.
(Of course I'm not saying a rapist is the same as thief, but they're both criminals taking advantage of someone being weak and disorientated)
-5
You can leave home without your phone, or put it in a place where it's more secure. Women can't do that their vaginas.
18
Please present your evidence for there being both a real world, and another that some people are not in, and that that poster would have, in any way, any affect on whether a rapist rapes someone?
-12
I'll ignore 80% of your comment because it's patently stupid. Most rapes happen to people when they are walking alone, usually after dark, often while intoxicated. This is because they are an easy target. It's harder to rape someone when they are in a group, are coherent, can run, scream, fight back.
-43
bullshitijustmadeup.txt
2
How is this appaling?
-1
A police campaign blaming victims for their misfortune, and telling men that it's possible to have sex without consent without being a rapist?
15
Did you even click the link? It basically says "don't drink so much that you wake up in a gutter with tramp-cum in your hair."
-10
Wow, people like you really do exist. Is 4chan down?
11
Oh I wish these people would just fuck off and let the police do their job.
Don't leave yourself more vulnerable to regretful sex or even rape. Drink sensibly and get home safely.
That's good advice, not victim blaming.
-5
I'm probably going to go to hell for saying this considering the nature of the poster...But the girl is really cute.
-11
it's a stock image - here's a non rape based version ironically enough advertising a Ladies' night
4
I think the problem highlighted is gender inequalities. While women are being cautioned to avoid drinking too much and plan how they get home bearing risk in mind, men are just gently told "Well, it could be rape if she's saying no. Watch out for that"
This always bugged me. Men can drink, go to the bar alone, stumble home drunk, not have to worry about drinks, go to the bathroom by themselves, and if they were to be raped by someone in an alley, no one would say "well, they should have covered up better and not walked at night".
Bullshit. If a man was attacked while walking home, alone, drunk at night, I'm sure pretty much everyone would say "It's not safe to walk home alone, drunk, at night. Don't do that.". It's not their fault that they got attacked but that doesn't mean that they couldn't have been more cautious about their actions.
We lock our cars/houses, keep pins on our phones, cover our pin codes at the checkout, don't flash money in public, keep passwords on our computers etc. It's not our fault if our stuff gets nicked, but that doesn't mean we don't take precautions to try and prevent it getting nicked. Where is the controversy over the police campaigns saying "Lock your valuables out of sight"? Are the police implying that it's the victim's fault if someone steals their things? Sounds like victim-blaming to me. We live in a theft-culture.
So you're saying when someone gets their identity stolen, or they're house broke into, your response is, "well, should have covered up your pin better" and "shoulda sprung for the full security system."? the fuck?
That's not what he's saying at all.
What he's saying is that urging caution is not the same as blaming the victim, and it's okay to urge caution, and it's okay to criticize people for not exercising caution.
From an idealistic point of view it's wrong. But it's totally valid advice from a pragmatic point of view. The number of women raped per year is high while men getting raped is virtually unheard of.
Women should be able to do all of those things, including walking home alone and feeling safe doing so. There are many things we should all be able to do, but it's just not the world we live in.
Men getting raped happens, but it's not reported as much. Although I believe it's far less frequent.
Dumbass. Do you understand that to a rapist "no" doesn't mean squat? There are so many cases of people getting falsely accused of raping and the "victim" getting away with it. It is sickening. Maybe it is better to get a notarized written agreement, before having sex with a woman nowadays.
Wouldn't matter since consent can be withdrawn at any time.
That's bullshit.