Source
r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker•
NotNullTerminated

What's the main selling point of the Shifter class?

Righteous : Builds

The shifter is a class added by one of the next DLCs. But I simply have no experience with and no feel of/for this class. I look at PF rulesets and read 'like a more martially inclined druid'; but what does it feel like in a game?

More specifically, if I read it right the main trick of the Shifter is... that they shift, i.e. that they can assume a form that is most useful for a given situation. But won't this result in just one, perhaps two, form(s) that are almost universally useful vs. a lot that you won't look at because it doesn't fulfill a useful role the rest of the party hasn't filled yet? Phrased differently, is the flexibility a shifter brings useful, or does it go to waste?

Posted Oct 26, 2022, 10:11 AM UTC

3967
Ephemeral_Being•

It's a full BAB class that uses natural attacks rather than weapons, and gets iterative attacks with its primary natural weapon (Claws).

It gets Monk AC, both +WIS and +1/5 levels.

It has built-in stat boosts.

A Shifter can easily grab three bonus natural attacks (Close to the Abyss, Triple Fin Helmet, Racial Bite or Gore) without dipping into other classes. A Skald gives another Bite or Gore, and a Witch another Bite.

It's basically a Monk, but with claws and fangs (plus access to armour and shields) rather than fists and quarterstaves. It has virtually the same problems as Monk when compared to Mutation Warrior, Primalist, or Paladin, but trades Monk's SLAs for raw stat boosts.

Best guess, it'll be an underwhelming class with uses akin to Rogue. Some builds will dip into it for a few levels, but rarely will you want to take all twenty levels.

41
_Rimiu_•

Man full martial classes with no toys are so bland and boring to me.

10
Silverjackal_•

Maybe because gish classes are so broken?

11
KillerRabbit345Azata•

Same. I'll give it a chance but I remember that Cernd was always benched when I played BG2.

Oh you can shift into a werewolf and the form gets more powerful with each level? How. Very. Exciting.

5
razorflossMagus•

Call me basic but I loved my wild shape druid especially with the mod that made it worth using in throne of bhal.

2
KillerRabbit345Azata•

I'm keeping an open mind. I didn't expect to like through the ashes but I was pleasantly surprised.

And the game needed another tank so . . . maybe.

Fingers crossed we both like it

2
Haddock_LotusWizard•

A monk with animal aspects don't seem bad in theory. Monk themselves can be good powerhouses if you build them right and have teamwork mentality (a character don't need to be auto sufficient).

3
Soziele•

Well keep in mind tabletop Monk is much stronger than the videogame one, thanks to some features that Owlcat didn't bring over.

But Shifter's main drawback is opportunity cost. It is a neat idea but other classes do the build better. If you want natural attacks may as well just play a Bloodrager, Alchemist, or a Monk with Feral Combat Training. If you want to shapeshift into creatures better to just pick a Druid or Brown Fur Transmuter Arcanist. Hell even Magus can do a monster shapeshifting build better.

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Mantisfactory•

Monk with Feral Combat Training.

This doesn't exist in game. That's a mod you're using.

As things sit, the Shifter will be the ONLY way in the base game to get iterative attacks with a Natural weapon. If absolutely nothing else, that would make the class worthwhile for people who want to build a combat-heavy, full-BAB, Shapeshifter.

Bloodrager can't wildshape, can't do iterative attacks with claws. Alchemist doesn't get unlimited shapeshifting from Master Shapeshifter because their ability doesn't count as Wildshape, while the shifter's does - also no iterative attacks and they don't have a Full-BAB, which matters less when you have Mutagen, but still matters for qualifying for feats.

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Soziele•

This doesn't exist in game.

I'm well aware, my entire comment is about why Shifter doesn't work well for tabletop. Should have been more clear about it.

Owlcat has the chance to make it work better here with the buffs to the class, plus the game is missing a lot of the tabletop content that makes Shifter a weaker choice.

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Keyenn•

It's a full BAB class that uses natural attacks rather than weapons, and gets iterative attacks with its primary natural weapon (Claws).

It gets iterative attacks with a natural weapon you choose (not specifically the claws) only if you don't use any other natural attack at all. If it's kept as if in WotR, it's instantly dead on arrival. And if it's not, legend Shifter is instantly OP.

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Nstark7474•

From what I’ve been told, TT shifter is garbage, but Owlcat will do some homebrew to buff it, Like turning enhancement bonuses to stats into inherent. It really depends on what kind of support they give it. I think if done right it’ll be a powerhouse with Trickster and Demon.

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NowTheMoonsRisingWinter Witch•

oh wow shifter demon sounds amazing if the bonuses carry over to demonic aspects.

13
erikkustrife•

A 3rd party made a Shifer in a book called legendary Shifter that while still being balanced is so much better then pazio base shifter. With pazio base shifter the npc class warrior out preforms it and is reguarded as the worst made class in pathfinder bar none. It doesnt even do its job properly as a druid that ignores their spell casting and pet still makes a better shifter.

If we get a shifter like legendary shifter ill be more then happy.

0†
AlleRacing•

Shifter is pretty mediocre, but the warrior class absolutely does not outperform it.

10
Arturius1Paladin•

Correct your comment - Warrior doesnt outperform shifter in any way, they have the same HD, BAB & Fort but Shifter has more skill points, better Ref and also class features, the only thing that Warrior has over Shifter are proficiencies and ability to wear metal armor which I'd say don't trump better numbers, not mentioning ability to get pounce.

7
iamanobviouswizard•

TT Shifter was garbage on release. Paizo has since given it some buffs that makes it alright, makes it playable. I'd still rather play a Druid though unless I was playing an Oozemorph (which I can guarantee won't be in WotR because of complexity and RAW/RAI arguments even in TT) or maybe Adaptive Shifter so it could do with some more buffs.

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kalik-boy•

We won't be able to be a slime boy?

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iamanobviouswizard•

Not a chance. Even in Tabletop, Oozemorph needed GM direction. The way Oozemorph works is extremely odd---you pick a starting race, as normal, but Oozemorph actually removes that race (though you retain its features) and replaces it with Ooze. On release, it wasn't even clear whether you could use majority of magic items as an Oozemorph because Oozes don't have magic item slots. Paizo answered that with a FAQ, but I think Oozemorph as fun an archetype it is is just too weird and too complex for WotR

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kalik-boy•

That's a shame. Imagine the knight commander just being a huge blob lol.

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Dusty170•

Why choose a race and then have it replaced with ooze? Wouldn't it be easier to just choose ooze from the get go?

#Justchooseooze

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shodan13•

It's fun to play, but not super competitive depending on what you're running and what other people are playing.

1
Seigmoraig•

I hope that Owlcat really gives them some love because the ability score buff that we know about now it not enough by far. When you are at 30-40+ strength after buffs and equipment that +4 inherent bonus isn't getting you anywhere.

In the PnP game the shifter peaks at level 4, it's a neat dip class for a niche natural attack character concept but that's it. Then if your didn't choose the Weretouched archetype you would "lose" your armor as it gets melded in your animal form and no longer have it's armor bonus so you need to rely on a party member to come and put some animal barding on your sorry ass

11
Mantisfactory•

In the PnP game the shifter peaks at level 4, it's a neat dip class for a niche natural attack character concept but that's it

Why do people keep saying this!? It's fundamentally not true.

Shifter's Fury is level 6 - upgrades at 11, and that lets you get iterative attacks with a single natural weapon, taking the rest as secondary. And at 11 it gives you an extra attack the same as a Monk's flurry at 11.

Shifter absolutely has value beyond 4 - at least to level 11 if you're building a natural attacker. Same as the Monk, which generally wants to dip 1 level, or 11 for full flurry.

Also a +4 to three separate stats will always be worth something to a class that gets Wis and Dex to AC, and benefits from STR.

5
Seigmoraig•

Shifters fury exists to make the single natural attack forms viable. Take for example the Bear or Tiger, they get 3 natural attacks available at level 4. The Boar gets only 1 attack at that level which is a downgrade from the two claws he was using in his normal up to that point. Boar needs to be level 11 to get as many attacks as Tiger does at level 4.

+4 to stats is great on paper until you compare it to other martials, once buffed to 40+ it's not that hot. +4 stats compared to the Slayer that gets a ton of sneak dice and a combat feat every even level ?

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MorgannaFactor•

In tabletop, the main selling point is being worse at shapeshifting than a Druid that trades out Wild Shape and relies on spells for shapeshifting. Yeah, its that bad - its a martial entirely based on shapeshifting and bad at it. The secondary selling point for the Shifter in tabletop is being so bad that it entices players and GMs to allow the third party class "Legendary Shifter", which is still lower in power than a full caster, but also actually the best shapeshifting fighting class now, especially since it makes awful archetypes of Shifter - such as Oozemorph - actually good and playable in their own variants.

Now this all sounds bad (and it should) but its not like a Shifter is unusable. They can still gain pounce by relying on their lycanthropic form with the correct archetype - use weapons while pouncing like that, or turn into a tiger to tear people apart. They're still way better than say, chained Rogue and chained Monk (which you wouldn't know from Owlcat's catalogue as Owlcat wisely went with Unchained for both classes). They're not a balance nightmare like a Summoner (the class) despite using natural attacks. They've still got decent flavor, too. They were just a horrible disappointment when released and required a lot of erratas and archetypes to become less wonky.

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erikkustrife•

I have got a player playing a MimicKin LShifter and i love it.

6
MorgannaFactor•

Nice! I play a Giant Shifter LShifter in our mythic home game, and got the feat to have access to Wild Shape. Its tons of fun as a class.

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Yosharian•

It's pretty terrible.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

5
TheAkasharose•

As a fellow preacher of the way of the rat, the concept art we got from the Season Pass 2 announcement makes it look like a male human, so a new race is unlikely.

I can dream, though. Tiefling was bundled with Kineticist, so I hope we get a new race - even if it's just making Goblin or Mongrel selectable.

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Soziele•

See that is the trick. Obviously the human is a wererat, so the assets will have to be made for normal ratfolk too. /s

Would be nice to see another race added though, that is for sure.

3
Mr_ungovernableAngel•

I don’t know much about Shifter beyond that it’s kinda trash because it has some inherent issues

I also think in this game it won’t exactly be top tier mainly because weapons and their effects are very good and loosing that for claws won’t be the best

However with your question about flexibility, I don’t rate being flexible very highly because your kinda encouraged to specialise in a select few things so I doubt it’s flexibility will be a great asset

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colma00Druid•

I also worry about support given to make shifters and what I assume to be their natural attacks more worthwhile (mythic abilities and the like) will just make it a perpetual bottom feeder compared to an angel merged druid or something. I hope not though.

4
Mantisfactory•

The game is lousy with natural attack buffing stuff that the Shifter will be able to use. It's overrepresented in the gear pool already, most likely because the Demon path is heavily premised on Polymorphing into things with natural attacks - and because Mounts were a big deal coming into Wrath.

If there is a way for Shifters to get unlimited Minor Aspect usage, and considering the datamined abilities give Inherent bonuses, that would be more than enough to keep them comfortably viable - even on Unfair.

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Damseldoll•

I'm really hoping that they sneak in something more than the buffs bring something that stacks. The Kineticists added in kingmaker were OP if you knew how to play them. Adding a washed up druid monk but worse than both won't sell a 12.99 DLC.

Two major problems with druid wildshape they could fix for shifters. 1. Almost all natural attacks by race or class are suppressed and you only get the form attacks. Imagine a dinosaur form Shifter with a bite, two talon attacks, Shifter claws, gore from the Demon path, barbarian rage power claws, dragon disciple natural attacks and more. The second problem is polymorph characters lose buffs from certain spells like enlarge person.

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Ahris22•

The shifter is a nische option like most other classes in wotr, i personally have actually wanted a class like this for a long time.

Regarding how useful it is, though, you could ask that about the majority of the classes we have and only find a handful that are useful to YOU but i bet that every one of them is useful to someone else. It's all about options.

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Ahris22•

The shifter is a nische option like most other classes in wotr, i personally have actually wanted a class like this for a long time. The main selling point is obviously the focus on having a variety of natural attacks without having to be a mage to get them, the Shifter has a D10 hit die and the same BAB as a fighter.

Regarding how useful it is, though, you could ask that about the majority of the classes we have and only find a handful that are useful to YOU but i bet that every one of them is useful to someone else. It's all about options.

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Natmis•

I just really want them to put in the Weretouched archetype. They already have models for some of the werecreatures too, so it would just need a bit of a tweak. But I doubt they will since they usually tend to stick to archetype that aren't too different from the base class or that get a features from another one. I can say that adaptive shifter will definitely not be included or if it is it won't work like the one from PnP version.

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GozenkaTentacles•

What can be said now is mostly speculation.

But it is certain that, since the class will be a major part of a DLC, it will be made in such a way that it is quite powerful or offers something new for minmaxing.

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shodan13•

Furries.

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ISawNightwishInLAMystic Theurge•

So is the Shifters shifting more akin to the Druids shapeshifting, where they assume the form of an animal, or more of a werekin thing where they Shifter becomes an anthropomorphized animal?

2
Damseldoll•

They do have wild shape but they also have aspects that aren't full transformations.

4
drpepstep•

Honestly it’s underwhelming sad that any martial class plus a brown fur transmuter outclasses it. They should honestly buff it like give it dragonkind 3 and something to set it apart from the above combo.

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chowshep•

I guess I’ll wait to see how the class and it’s possible archetypes are implemented in the game before passing judgement on how a Shifter rates with other classes.

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Meeeto•

Owlcat is gonna have to work overtime to buff it, coz TT shifter is fucking ass and a contender for shittest class

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Tink2013Rogue•

U/OwlcatStarrok are you seeing all the shifter comments about how they seriously stink in pathfinder. A few tweaks arent going to fix them, they need something major. Do aspects and claws beat level 9 druid spell casting? I think not.

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ScytheSe7enMagus•

I'm sad they went with Shifter when Druid and Hunter are already there. I wish they'd add Investigator already, it's like a cross between a Rogue and an Alchemist and a Slayer.

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LysanderFlare•

Yeah but it's true that Shifter may be imbricated good in the old Sarkoris context compared to, say, an investigator. And three of his archetypes fit dragon, demon and trickster pretty well. I'm pretty glad they choose this class but a little affraid coz of how mediocre the class is in the P&P.

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ScytheSe7enMagus•

I think Summoner might have been a better pick, it's a very flavorful class

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LysanderFlare•

Sure but they said the're not gonna do summoner, too much work for eidolons...

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ScytheSe7enMagus•

Yeah, it would be a ton of work, whereas they already have the assets for Shifters with 2 Wild Shape classes & such, but it is for a DLC and Summoner's a great class, even Unchained.

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AllIsOpenEnded•

There is a mod that adds it.

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ScytheSe7enMagus•

For Righteous? I only saw it in a Kingmaker mod last I looked, about a month ago.

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AllIsOpenEnded•

Yep!

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ScytheSe7enMagus•

Which mod is it? I went looking and couln't find it.

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DarkSoulsExcedere•

Of all the new classes they could have chosen. They chose the most boring one... man a medium would be SO DAMN COOL for a solo run. But no. We get claws and shit fighter.

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Tink2013Rogue•

If you look at the class they had left not in the game, you have Summoner, Gunslinger, Vigilante, Vampire Hunter, Investigator, Swashbuckler, Medium, Mesmerist, Occultist, Psychic, Spiritualist, Ninja, Samurai, Anti Paladin and Shifter.

Ninja and Samurai aren't thematic. Vigilante and Vampire Hunter are super niche and from other literature. Summoner, Gunslinger and Swashbuckler have been shot down because their mechanics are too difficult.

Investigator is just a rogue/Alchemist. The rest are just occult classes. Shifter is a base class.

They picked it cause so many others disqualified.

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DarkSoulsExcedere•

Yeah I know why they picked it. Doesnt make me hate the shifter any less.

1