twitch.tvPosted Sep 3, 2012, 6:15 PM UTC
For those who missed it:
Pre-sub (53:08): http://puu.sh/11Hq2.png
Post-sub (53:25): http://puu.sh/11HqR.png
Jihad4jesus subbed out, nine-t-nine subbed in.
Most matches allowed subs, either because both teams agreed pre-match or because neither team really cared and just wanted to play. ZFZ obviously cared about the extra $20, and hopped on the chance to rulefuck
Throughout my competitive history, I've always found it hilarious how shitty things get over some fucking pocket change...
Unless there was an admin available to witness the 'sub' in the early rounds, and in this case there was not, it would be the responsibility of the teams to make a dispute and reach an admin for clarification or for a final answer on the issue. If the teams did not do this and went forward with the match, the match stands as is. This is not the COD community. A match dispute 'after the match' will not result in overturning of the match unless a team was found to have been using hacks. No team was disqualified for making a sub. They simply were not able to make the sub with the reason given. The team that needed the sub did have a 7th player available to play who chose to instead ban CSN admins (from IRC) that were trying to resolve the issue. This player instead decided to uninstall the game and force his team to take the forfeit loss. No team was disqualified during this entire process.
Thank you to all of the teams and players that continue to support Tribes. Although this was officially a Hi-Rez event, CSN very much appreciats those teams and players that help make this event a success.
Unless there was an admin available to witness the 'sub' in the early rounds, and in this case there was not
May I ask why? It seems to me that in a game without replay functionality a tournament organizer would want to have someone present at all official matches to help stave off any potential issues that may arise? It certainly doesn't seem very professional to say, "Here's a tournament. There's money on the line. We don't want to commit the resources to ensure teams are following the rules, therefore teams are 100% responsible for policing their opponents."
A match dispute 'after the match' will not result in overturning of the match unless a team was found to have been using hacks.
Do you even have written rules for match disputes after the match? I don't see them on your website. If you do, where are they? If you don't, why not?
Although this was officially a Hi-Rez event,
Way to distance yourselves from the event. Can't have CSN looking bad, now can you?
In a related query, was the NASL event that you pretty brutally trashed also "officially a Hi-Rez event"? Are they allowed to distance themselves like CSN is doing?
I won't defend Mabel's behavior. I won't join the hate dS/ZFZ bandwagon. I will point out that the finals for a tournament that you ran were a goddamn clusterfuck. CSN's waffling on the you can't sub, wait, now you can issue as well as your inability to keep the finals under control contributed to that clusterfuck. This all happened not even a week after you lambasted NASL and accused them of contributing to the downfall of T:A as an e-sport. Then you come here, lay all of the blame at the feet of 1 player, and try to distance yourself from the event?
Fuck off.
CSN has no problem taking blame for any issue in which we made a mistake or a bad call. Not being able to have an admin in every game is always of concern, but you are a big boy and should be able to follow the rules that are laid out. If you or your opponent have a dispute about a specific rule it is important to contact an admin regarding this.
The finals for this event had nothing to do with CSN not managing it. We were immediately involved with the issue and were immediately looking to resolve it. It is really a shitty thing that the event was not able to be finished, but again, Mono was not disqualified because they were trying to make a sub. The player finished the map and we moved on to the next one. The forfeit comes from the fact that they were not able to field 7 players for the remaining maps.
How was the finals a cluster fuck when these issue were out of our control and frankly were out of the control of both teams. If there is blame for their team's forfeit it should be directed at the player that chose not to help his team. Look at this way.. had he continued to play and help his team field 7 players.. most of this issue we are discussing now would never have happened.
Again, and you can ask many in the industry, I am all about transparency and will never shy from taking blame when we have screwed up. We will not grow as a company or within a community if we are not willing to admit when we have made a mistake. CSN was not responsible for shutting off the internet and we were not responsible for a player choosing to bail on his team. I do apologize if the situation seemed a bit out of control, but I assure you that we were working on it immediately. Having both of our head admins banned from a channel of communication and having players not respond makes it very difficult to deal with the situation.
Regarding match disputes after the match. The point here is that if 2 teams play a match and then realize afterwards that they played the wrong map order or something similar, because both teams played through the map, we will not overturn the results. The situation was the same for both teams and thus there was no real advantage. Besides, it is the responsibility of the teams to make sure the settings, maps and rules are being followed. I would love to have an admin in every map.. but not only is it not available, not efficient.. but it should be assumed that teams can work issues out .. (mostly) on their own.
From the very start of this event, a few specific teams, were very difficult to deal with and tried numerous times to circumvent the rules that were in place.
If I find that my admins were not acting in such a manner that is standared for CSN or that we dropped the ball on a specific issue, I will not shy away from taking responsibility for that. At this point though, the information that I have and in looking at the entire situation immediately after it was happening, I do not see that the admins made any sort of rash or wrong decision. The very fact that we tried to finish the event and tried to reach out to the player that was refusing to help his team, I think shows that we were intersted in seeing the event played out. It's one of my biggest issues in esports to not have events finished. Sometimes though, there is no choice but to resolve the issue according to the rules and move on. We have Mono several chances to find a 7th player and finish the match and at the end of it all.. they decided they would rather not play it. We simply could not allow them to move the event to another day. However, as stated, if Hi-Rez would like to see the finals played out and would prefer that the last few maps be played, then we will abide by that. They will get the information that we have and we will offer our opinion based on our rules that were in place and the reaction and decisions from the teams and they can decide how they would like to proceed.
Again, I do apologize if there are some that feel we dropped the ball on this. I believe that we handled the situation, which was crazy, the best that we could and reached out to both teams to find a way to finish the match (as scheduled) and it simply was not able to be done.
but you are a big boy and should be able to follow the rules that are laid out.
Except, you know, when the teams clearly don't...and then there is no admin to reinforce the rules.
We were immediately involved with the issue and were immediately looking to resolve it.
But you didn't. At all.
Mono was not disqualified because they were trying to make a sub.
Nobody has suggested Mono was disqualified because they were trying to make a sub. ZFZ told Mono that the rules prevented them from making a sub, which prevented them from fielding a team and forced a forfeit. And of course, nobody on the CSN side sorted this out properly.
Having both of our head admins banned from a channel of communication and having players not respond makes it very difficult to deal with the situation.
Don't you think at that point CSN should have stopped everything as it was to sort it out? A single player on one team nerd raging out and blocking you guys doesn't mean you throw your hands up and go "fuck it, too bad for them".
We simply could not allow them to move the event to another day.
Why not?
Regarding your first statement.... CSN was not aware of the early game sub and it was the responsibility of the teams to reach out to an admin regarding this issue.
Regarding our involvement.. we very much were involved right from the start and immediately were looking to resolve the issue. We reached out to mabel to play the match and gave Mono several chances to get their roster together and finish the match and they chose not to. We never threw our hands up sir.. we have been doing this for years and being banned from a channel or dealing with a baby was not the issue at all. It was a matter of communication. Not at any time did we give up on finding a solution or trying to communicate with the players involved.
We are not about to move the event to another day if zfz was there at the time to play.. the match started and was going.. AND, most importantly, Mono did have 7 players that they could field. It's pretty standard that teams will need to use other roster players at some point. Had the situation been in reverse... the same decision would have been made.
If an NFL team loses their QB in the 3rd quarter to an injury.. the NFL is not going to stop the match and move it to another day to be finished. The team brings in the backup QB and the game continues. If Mono does not feel that they could win with their alternate players.. then.. hmm.
John has to be professional so I am going to go ahead and interpret this for you kids that only speak reddit hate.
Mabel's fault... he is and always will be a cry baby
and since G2wolf was in game (mono knew this), it wasn't really zfz's call if frost could or could not play. Mono just decided to run with it, when we questioned it, and add it to the excuses column.
Also, I do not speak for zfz at all, as I am not in any type of leadership position, but I would play this over. I do not think playing it over is 100% fair to us as mono knows it can be difficult to beat zfz with their original game plan, so they can go back and practice some wildcard tactics like more shrike grabbing and soldier capping... but I'd play again out of respect for the individuals I do think are class acts on mono (the remiCs situation is pretty crappy), and the chance that buhlitz ctrl Ks IRL if they get beat.
Look pal, I don't give a fuck about the comp scene. I sure do love these drama threads, though. You sound like an ass trying to cover his ass and I sure has hell (if I ever break down and watch tribes) won't be watching anything you are involved in.
I don't like when the onus is on team's to do disputes especially in a game without demos. If the dispute works the other team likely will hate on you and if it doesn't work they will still likely hate on you for trying. Admins should be on top of shit but I know it's hard to find someone to be around for every match in the real world. If admins make a call then there usually is no bad blood between teams because rules and rules and admins are admins.
It's the same deal with comments I see where ZFZ should allow subbing or rescheduling or whatever. The choice shouldn't be on ZFZ or any team. Admins should make those calls or the rules should be 100% rock solid so there's no doubt about it. Rules should never put any choice on one team effecting another like that. It just leads to shitty situations all around where there is no good choice.
A match dispute 'after the match' will not result in overturning of the match unless a team was found to have been using hacks.
So with the exception of hacking, you guys don't reinforce any rules if they were found to have been broken after the fact?
This is a joke, right?
Also this:
No team was disqualified for making a sub. They simply were not able to make the sub with the reason given. The team that needed the sub did have a 7th player available to play who chose to instead ban CSN admins (from IRC) that were trying to resolve the issue.
Is a huge oversimplification and quite frankly CSN should have stepped in earlier and actually handled the issue, it was clearly extenuating circumstances. You guys dropped the ball on this one in a big way.
help make this event a success.
I think you may want to adjust your definition of the word success. Right now everyone but you and ZFZ consider it to be a failure.
Have you ever been a part of an organized league with anything, be it Baseball, Bowling, or even Table Tennis?? Do you realize how absurd you sound? For some reason you want to blame everyone but the people who messed up.
I've organized tournaments before, and if one ever ended for any reason besides "the best team beat the second best team" I would consider it a complete failure.
I'm not taking any sides here but if ^ was the case, the recent Olympic games would've been much more different :)
How CSN resolves tricky issues, how they arbitrate conflicts and how accurate their calls will all be reflected on their long-term reputation. If pro teams feel CSN can't organize a fair match I would think less will join in the future (some may disagree but a good/fair gaming experience should outweigh small cash incentive).
Whether physical-sports or e-sports, there are ALWAYS edge cases in how rules are enforce/regulated and judges sometimes make shitty calls (in re. Olympics). IMO the best thing we can hope is that CSN learns from this and improve future tournaments. This painful process is how precedence are set and rules are created.
I think it's good that you're calling them out though. Leaving ambiguity to fester only breed bitterness and future disputes. What I would like to see CSN do is more accurately enumerate how they will resolve similar issues in the future.
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Thank you sir!
Mabel was no longer a team member after DX. Therefore they had no available sub. And even then, as soon as remiCs was cut out by PAX, CSN should have come in and postponed the match.
Mono without remiCs is not Mono. Nobody but zfz will consider this a victory.
Nobody but zfz will consider this a victory.
I do!
a fucking ecard? really? i see enough of this shit on facebook, don't let it spill over to reddit, please.
Ecard for Esports :P
The part that scares me isn't the fact that ZFZ subbed without telling or asking. It's the fact that they did it in such a short time frame that there is a very large possibility that the sub was in spectator mode of the match and in contact with his team.
In spectator mode, in contact with his team.
Do any of you realize how serious this could be if they were?
No worries man, we can just go back and look at his player demo to make sure he wasn't.
lol get it because there is no demo feature
lol hirez
oh ho ho
Everybody was still at 0 kills, 0 assists, and 0 points - nothing had happened in the match yet, therefore subbing someone out had NO EFFECT whatsoever on the match.
So? It's still in violation of the rules, which ZFZ were stringent about adhering to. Why should their violation of a rule be given special consideration?
Well, if we start with the assumption that the rules are there for a reason...
Before I go about saying what I have in mind, how far in the match did MME substitute?
What relevance does that have towards whether or not it was a rule violation?
ZFZ wouldn't let them sub (even though it was a reasonable course of action) because "it's against the rules".
In that case, ZFZ isn't allowed to sub - even when it's perfectly reasonable because "it's against the rules".
Quoting RowanDoyle...
It's fair enough to stick to the rule if the game's been going for longer than fucking 30 seconds and if I recall correctly mMe wanted to sub way into the match. This is completely different.
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Hey chill out man.. I thought you were a pretty cool guy when you had that 24 hour stream-a-thon but you've been pretty uncool about this situation. If you really want to play a tournament to see who the best team is, have a rematch. Forget the prize money, play some tribes. That is if mme gets their players together.
Only a handful of people on both sides handled this shitty situation with dignity.. Too bad, really. =\
ZFZ didn't let them sub in Frost for Mabel, saying "rules are rules".
Expanding on your statement for more clarity:
I saw this. They were not allowed to switch during a map with that exact quote from a zfz player.
The only sub for Mono I saw happening was between maps and not during a map. Titan is saying this in his first paragraph too (possibly messed up the wording and meant to say it was a mid-map sub?)
The second paragraph then says that Mono was able to switch mid-map (or does it? Depends on what he wanted to say in the first one), which they were not.
Yea, I really don't understand what the fuck he's talking about. There were screenshots with members of ZFZ explicitly stating "rules are rules".
If you are so intent on calling someone out, why not Mono after tucking tail and running after losing the first best of 3? Convenient this all went down after that.
They knew what was coming and figured they'd better find an excuse sooner than later.
lot of deadstop fans here on reddit to vote you down arent there?
forcefields are banned? ahahahaha.
Only on DX where there is no gen to destroy.
still a silly rule.
'oh this is awkward to deal with, so lets just not deal with it'.
Don't humour that shit, the rest of us have to put up with the map in its full doombringer glory. Drop the map.
'oh this is awkward to deal with, so lets just not deal with it'.
sums up every banned item entirely.
The alternative was worse maps.
No, DX is a terrible map that isn't well designed for how T:A is designed. The deep pit and elevated stand with excellent cover make it incredibly hard to displace the D on this map. You only have a few places to approach from and even then the D is well shielded from your harassment. No gen makes it just stupid.
Who won?
ZFZ, mono had to forfeit because they were unable to sub and therefore unable to field a team
Come on people !!!
Do you think this kind of bitching "post mortem" is helping anyone. No, it is just holding the dark shadow higher over TA. What happened is unfortunate, community made mistakes organizers made mistakes, but it's better to learn from them and avoid it happening in the future.
And if you truly hate Titan or Mabel or John or whoever just send him a PM(noticed, singular) abut how much you hate him and how much of a dick he is. Get it off your chest and move on(I believe it's better to say that to peoples face rather then going behind them and bitching).
There is a difference between constructive criticism and what is going on there. And we are all grown ups here(at lest I hope we are). Do you think this helps TA be a better game? We all love this game(otherwise we would not be here), just try to make it better not worse.
So much sweet sweet drama. Thank you very much US Tribes scene. :)
ZFZ is a bag of dicks. Been saying it for months.
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that's being pretty pedantic
Oh so you mean that's being exactly like ZFZ?
I'm not saying people should be anal about the rules, I'm pointing out that if ZFZ is going to be anal about the rules they should be held to them by the same standard. Which means disqualification.
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Why should the time elapsed make a difference in context of rule violation? ZFZ wouldn't allow them to sub, but they subbed themselves during a match. How is that not hypocritical? Because ZFZ did it faster? If it's pedantic to call them out on subbing at any time, then it's pedantic not to allow mono to sub either - both effectively allowed the game to continue with teams at full strength without disadvantaging anybody. When they broke the rule is entirely irrelevant.
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The only thing left to do is give first place to LgN, we had no subs to sub with the entire tournament!
I think u mean tao br0. Errbody gettin tao'd this tourney lol
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