Source
r/Eldenring•
FunctionPlastic

CMV: being permanently locked out of build-making items because you talked to NPCs in the wrong order is fucking stupid

Discussion & Info

I know I can get people online to drop the items for me. I don't want to. I could also get them to drop a billion runes and upgrade materials, every weapon and talisman in the game, and completely trivialize all content. What I want is to start a character from level one and make it more powerful as a reward for completing content.

Locking me out of items is an okay punishment, I get that this is intentional. What is moronic however is the things I get punished for. It's asinine in a game that is famously cryptic and you have no way of predicting some outcomes, that whether you will get a super-important item for your build depends on whether you remember to talk to NPCs in the correct order.

Like the worst part of this is that it only punishes people who don't want others to drop items for them, as in it punishes people with an actual desire to stick with the "intended" way of playing.

Posted Dec 5, 2022, 10:25 AM UTC

032
uaiTrops:hollowed2:•

you only know about the existence of that item if you have searched or played before. so you should have been more careful with your progression

7
FunctionPlasticOP•

This isn't true. After the NPC died I searched and then found out I needed his item. So I've been punished for not obsessively following the wiki at literally every moment, to know in which order to talk with NPCs. If that is OK then where does the logic stop? Why not make it harder? Why not lock 50% of items behind an obscure sequence of events?

-3
fleetadmeralcrunch•

Do you not understand blind play through a?

0
danimidsommar•

the game is not “punishing” you but yes you did miss an item that can be challenging to get if you want to play blind. i played a mage on my first playthrough and didn’t get it until NG+. it was fine, my playthrough wasn’t ruined.

it’s kind of weird to be so intentional about a build that you miss one item and it’s “ruined” but also insist on trying to play blind. you do you though.

5
FunctionPlasticOP•

Sorry how is it "not punishing" me if it removes #1 talisman for my build?

-11
danimidsommar•

you’re assuming intent that is not there. the game follows its programming. you decided the talisman in question was the #1 item for your build and decided not to follow the quest associated with it closely. that’s on you.

4
FunctionPlasticOP•

the game follows its programming

Yeah and it's almost as if the programming implements rules that reward/punish certain behavior like virtually all game rules since the dawn of time.

you decided the talisman in question was the #1 item for your build and decided not to follow the quest associated with it closely

  1. This didn't happen. I only found out about the talisman later when I looked up what I was being locked out of. It just turned out to be one of the core build items.

  2. If by "not following the quest" you mean "you didn't speak to NPCs in the correct order" then that's true. This quest design is also part of what I am critiquing, especially in combination of locking you out of important gear in the first 10-20% of the game.

-1
WeaponFocusFace•

How do you know an item is a core build item for you if you do not know it exists?

If you've progressed through the game just fine without it, how core is it really?

1
FinneousPJ•

You're never permanently locked out of anything though. Multiplayer aside there are infinite NG+ cycles as well.

3
FunctionPlasticOP•

I mean of course, but it would literally take less time to start over. It's an incredibly long game and the item I'm talking about is in the first half.

1
DeusIzanagi•

Just out of curiosity, are you talking about a specific item? Because I can't think of any that get locked like that rn

3
FunctionPlasticOP•

Oh there are probably many, mostly the quest rewards. I'm talking about the magic scorpion charm. I did Seluvis' quest but forgot I have to talk with him before talking to Ranni at some point.

-3†
DeusIzanagi•

Yeah I know there are many quest rewards, I'm just talking about "build important" ones like you mentioned. And yeah that scorpion fits the bill, it can be pretty important and it's very easy to miss.

5
[deleted]•

I mean, 12% extra magic damage isnt that big of a deal, instead of hitting a target 10 times you hit it 9 to deal the same ammout of damage (unless the damage calculation is multiplicative but I dont have the faintest idea haha)

It's understandable for PVP where you might want to max out your damage but it's not like the whole quest becomes invalid just because it locks you out of something.

2
FunctionPlasticOP•

As I said elsewhere yeah I'm aware you can beat the game on SL1 with a club etc. The problem is that many people are motivated to play by their characters becoming progressively more powerful. If you know that your potential has been perma gimped in the first 10-20% of the playthrough can you see how this leaves a sour taste for those players, even if it's only 12% of their damage?

I mean I assume that if you knew you had to talk to NPCs in a specific order or else you won't get an important upgrade, you too wouldn't be indifferent.

1
[deleted]•

I played blind when I first got the game, but I had already played the other souls games so yea, I kinda knew I had to talk to everyone I could in an area before progressing through important bosses and dungeons. I even used a notepad to write down everything I knew about npcs and their quests.

But yea, this item is one I didn't get as well.

Forgive me if I was rude, I had not slept. But I swear, I have changed, I did change! I am better now, I shall try to not commit the same mistakes again. You have my word.

2
0diumStormblessed•

Not sure if this build is for PvP but scorpion charms are considered not worth it in pvp if that's any consolation.

2
Chronochonist•

ok

EDIT: OP had his baby feelings hurt and blocked me :(

1†
Orcling•

No suprise

2
SaberWaifu:restored:•

Fromsoft always rewards exploration and you only miss items if you are aware of their existence. I agree that the way their NPC questlines work is bad and should be reworked but you can get mad for having missed an item for your build only if you already knew of that item's existence. If that is the case then it means that you weren't doing a blind playthrough and you should have been more careful in following the steps to obtain it. If you started looking for items after completing the game then the fastest way to get the ones that are now locked is to simply go in NG+.

1
FunctionPlasticOP•

Fromsoft always rewards exploration

No actually it punishes exploration just as often. Open world game where certain questlines break if you visit certain areas, or don't do things in specific order.

but you can get mad for having missed an item for your build only if you already knew of that item's existence

How about: I found out that's the item I want after I bricked the questline and looked up what I was missing. Turns out the thing I'm missing is the #1 recommended talisman!

If you started looking for items after completing the game then the fastest way to get the ones that are now locked is to simply go in NG+.

Actually this happens in early game. So I completely bricked my potential in this playthrough permanently in the first 10% of the playtime.

It would literally be faster to just start over.

-2†
TheRunicHammer:hollowed:•

The game rewards exploration and frequently checking back with NPCs, all of From’s games do. Also, if this item was so important for your build, why did you not look it up to make sure you got it? Regardless, this item won’t make or a break anything.

1
FunctionPlasticOP•

The game rewards exploration and frequently checking back with NPCs, all of From’s games do.

Yeah I know. It also punishes doing this at least sometimes, like in my case: if I didn't check in on one NPC I would now be able to progress another questline and get my item.

It can also punish you for exploration, like if you visit areas out of order. My argument is that this is pretty bad game design in an open world game.

Also, if this item was so important for your build, why did you not look it up to make sure you got it?

I didn't know it existed before I bricked the questline.

Regardless, this item won’t make or a break anything.

Yeah I'm aware some people beat the game on SL1 naked with a club. But people have different motivations for playing. One of my motivations revolves around getting my character more powerful. If a game perma-locks me out of a big chunk of power in the first 10% of playtime this is a pretty big punishment. I'm not saying that it's never justified, but I am saying that it's definitely not justified as punishment for talking to NPCs in the wrong order.

0
TheRunicHammer:hollowed:•

Then you should have checked that NPC, as I said, it rewards going back and talking to them frequently. Also, isn’t visiting areas in any order you want the whole fucking point of an open world game?

If you didn’t know it existed, then it’s no big loss, it’s not like your build was centered around it then.

This singular item isn’t going to prevent your character or build from being strong. Sure, you’ll do a little less damage but it is no-where near as big a deal as you are making it out to be.

Besides, this sounds like your first Souls game, but in Souls game you go in the first time expecting to miss stuff and mess up questlines. There is a reason most people don’t make their first character their “optimal” one, especially if playing blind.

3
FunctionPlasticOP•

Then you should have checked that NPC, as I said, it rewards going back and talking to them frequently

But rushing to check in with another NPC is exactly what bricked this one. I had to know the correct order in which to talk with these NPCs.

Also, isn’t visiting areas in any order you want the whole fucking point of an open world game?

I agree. This is exactly why I think "visiting A before B will brick a bunch of questlines" is bad game design. It worked better in a linear game that had a fixed order of visits.

In a linear game this leads to the player being punished for not exploring enough. I a non-linear game this leads to the player being punished for exploring, beating the whole purpose of the open world.

If you didn’t know it existed, then it’s no big loss, it’s not like your build was centered around it then.

This singular item isn’t going to prevent your character or build from being strong. Sure, you’ll do a little less damage but it is no-where near as big a deal as you are making it out to be.

My motivation to play is getting my character to be more powerful (within certain self imposed constraints). This is a very common motivation for many players.

I'm aware it's not the end of the world and that I could beat the game without that item. But it's a significant hit to my motivation to play the game.

Besides, this sounds like your first Souls game

It's not. I played DS1 and DS3. It is the first one where I care about stuff like this though.

but in Souls game you go in the first time expecting to miss stuff and mess up questlines

This isn't my first playthrough. But I didn't expect that whether I would be locked out of the #1 or #2 best talisman would literally depend on which NPC I talk to first.

0
Lunar_Worshipper•

Funny since this game barely punishes or even allows players to do anything that might ruin something.

1
FunctionPlasticOP•

I'm sorry what? You can ruin entire questlines by just going to a certain place in the wrong game state. It's the only game that I know of that allows things like this in fact.

1
Lunar_Worshipper•

How many quest lines get absolutely ruined by going to certain places at certain times outside from getting the Ashen Capital?

1
Hopper1974•

As far as I remember there are only a handful of things (items) you can truly lock yourself out of (two or three are by progressing really quite far in the game beyond what it likely expects you to do). You mainly miss dialogue (because a lot of NPC lines just skip to the next point/location).

If you are a true completionist, then there a couple of things (e.g. certain puppet ashes) that you cannot get in one play-through (though you can get 100% Trophies/Achievements in one play-through - with a little 'scum-saving' right at the end to get the different endings).

There is one very obvious interconnected line where returning a certain item to a certain character (long quest-line) will cause a certain NPC to die and prevent access to an item if you haven't progressed his quest to a certain point.

But the first (main) character says that, without worry, you should speak to the second NPC and gain whatever advantage you can from him (that is kind of a hint from the game). And talking to the second NPC (and following his line, having just been told, in effect, to do so, will reveal his final plan and one should likely be able to work-out this is not going to end well). So I pursued his line until I had gained the 'advantage' (as the first character [the game] recommends), and then decided not to go through with his final plan (because it was obvious that the first and obviously more important character's line was still nowhere near completion).

There is enough in the respective dialogues with each to piece it together. Cryptic yes; but not to the point of being unable to make a reasonably educated guess as to what to do. And it is a pretty rare example - hardly something that occurs multiple times in ER.

1
Hephaestus_Stu•

OP is salty AF. Take my downvote.

You're not permanently locked out of anything. NG+, or make a new character.

The game doesn't expect you to make all the right decisions on a 1st blind playthrough, and it makes sense that there are good rewards for doing difficult and convoluted quests.

0
FunctionPlasticOP•

Your post is garbage, misses the point, and contributes nothing to the thread.

1
sido132•

If someone could drop me a billion runes I would appreciate it🤣🤣🤣 I’ve never played the game before and finding it near on impossible, i will keep trying but again if anyone wants to drop some bits to help out, much appreciated 😂😂

0