Source
r/atheism•
Yuvithegod

Islam makes people less moral, not more

A commonly held sentiment, amongst both the religious and non-religious (such as Jordan Peterson¹), is that the morality from Abrahamic religions is good and thus should be preached and followed, even if they don't believe in the religion itself.

¹ "Christian Atheist"

My counterpoint is simple. We can obviously all agree that pedophilic acts is immoral, in fact the vast majority of people would agree with such.

However, there is a large population of Muslims who believe that it can be morally permissable for an adult to have sex with a 9 year old (or/and older) girl.

Why do they believe this?

Because their Prophet Muhammad had sex with (raped) a 9 year old (consummation of marriage). Saying that Aisha was 19 or something is revisionist and an act of kufr - rejecting the Saheeh hadeeths is akin to rejecting Allah. ²

Thus, these people, the vast majority of which are obviously not pedophiles themselves, are almost forced to defend pedophillic acts as moral or somehow acceptable, else they would be commiting an act of kufr and become a disbeliever. Where else do you find such a large number of non-pedophiles who staunchly attempt to defend the notion that a 9 year old can provide informed consent?

²

The saheeh hadiths state that the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) did the marriage contract with ‘Aa’ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine years old. 

Ruling on one who rejects a saheeh hadith

Hence there was consensus among the scholars that whoever denies that the Sunnah constitutes shar‘i evidence in general terms, or rejects a hadith of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him – knowing that it is the words of the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) – is a disbeliever, who has not attained even the lowest level of Islam and submission to Allah and His Messenger. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/122534

https://www.google.com/amp/s/islamqa.info/amp/en/answers/115125

Posted Jan 8, 2023, 12:19 AM UTC

19159
[deleted]•

Here's a taste of what one might find in good old King James:

  1. How to secure slaves
  2. That girls are dirtier than boys.
  3. That menstrual fluid is unclean.
  4. Burning a witch is necessary.
  5. Gay people should be executed.
  6. A rape victim should be stoned, should she not cry out loud enough.
  7. A woman should never usurp authority over a man.
  8. That beating a child is a-okay.
  9. That beating a slave is okay as long as he doesn't die, for he is property.
  10. That slaves should obey their masters.

That's just off the top of my head, without even trying. The point is this. When people say they get their morals from religion, I would say... I sure as fuck hope not.

63
YuvithegodOP•

Exactly. The majority of religious people are moral despite their religion, not due to it.

28
dragon_dez_nutsAtheist•

Same

1
SilvrePhoxAtheist•

When you to tend to perceive a monster of a deity as good, you also tend to believe you are good for worshiping that deity.

35
Error-Original•

Islam 100% makes people worse. People who without islam never would have hurt anyone go on to do horrible things. Worse yet they call themselves righteous.

19
JNMeiun•

I wouldn't go that far. Demagogues don't need religion to incite people and like wise desperate people will do what they have to do to survive. Religion just takes the demagogue's knife and hands them a gun.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
TheEffinChamps•

Jordan Peterson is not a good source for philosophical or ethical guidance regarding religion.

He has zero expertise in those fields.

13
clickmagnet•

If you thinks raping a child is bad, think on the defining quality of what it means for a religion to be “Abrahamic” in the first place. It means a man willing to stab his son to death because an angel told him to is a moral examplar. That story is almost explicit in its message: cast aside your own notions of right and wrong, however basic and obvious they may seem, and just obey. Even when the order seems immoral. That’s not for you to decide.

Furthermore, all religions require that people believe things based on insufficient or absent evidence. This is not in itself inherently immoral. But it is great practice for becoming immoral. For fooling yourself that the big idea you’re so passionate about is worth the cost of other peoples’ lives, even if it isn’t strictly supported by observation. Or for just shutting up and pretending to believe along with everybody else, regardless of what your intuition says.

Anyway, I fully agree with your post, but submit that it doesn’t go nearly far enough.

12
mownyisntreal•

source? When did muslim rape a child? When? How? Why?

-6
SnooConfections6383•

Prophet Muhammad raped Aisha. A child can not give consent.

9
clickmagnet•

It’s in the OP, the prophet marrying a 9-year-old. I have no position on whether he really did that, or existed at all.

5
sexysausage•

marry a 6-year-old, consumate at 9 years of age

to be precise.

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134

6
mownyisntreal•

Original source?

-5
SnooConfections6383•

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith #5134

6
sexysausage•

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5134

4
harry6466•

Jordan Peterson is a grifter and mentally unwell. Projecting his mental instability unto young men.

8
cyst16•

Heh, and don't forget that if you're not Muslim, you're already on the highway to hell. Incidentally, some pretty pious believers tend to arm themselves with this very notion and try to preach about Islam, hoping to have some more poor people joining them. It's called hidayah or something if I'm not mistaken.

5
PlagueOfLaughter•

I like to point at the very first pages of the Quran. They tell us that the people who don't believe in Allah (this includes both atheists and theists who believe something else), will NEVER believe because Allah is deliberately sealing their hearts, resulting in the punishment of these people.
Frankly the Quran is written like one big piece of propaganda and it makes my skin crawl. If that doesn't rise any red flags, I don't know what will.

5
gulfpapa99•

Which religion does?

4
Deaths_Rifleman•

All religion makes people less moral because they only reason they want to be good people is because of some future sky daddy retribution not actually being a decent fucking human being.

4
AceDaddy00•

All religion does

2
--harumph--•

And do does Christianity apparently ,(based on my observations on US over the last couple of decades)

2
MarleyTheDogg•

It literally says in the Quran to cut off the hands of thieves.

2
AriAnsarii•

https://youtu.be/yIfKScotM08 This is how they look at women

1
MatlockLegalAttorney•

Religion makes people stupid* There, fixed that title for ya to be more inclusive :)

1
siviconta•

Religion makes people less moral by modern standards. Morality is subjective not universal.

1
smilelaughenjoy•

Tha same can be said about the bible:

"Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - Numbers 31:17-18

"Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat." - Leviticus 26:28-29

It's not just Islam but even the Judeo-Christian bible. Even slavery is in the bible and it says that if a man beats his slave and the slave doesn't die within 2 days, then that's ok because he is his property/money (Exodus 21).

Abrahamic religions have inspired a lot more colonizing and genocides than what human beings bave naturally done. The idea to kill off other tribes worshipping other gods and to kill gay men, are things that make people see colonizing and genocide as something holy and commanded by their god.

1
Frankbot5000•

With the Catholic Church's track record on underage sex, it's seems one-sided to just be attacking Islam.

1
Mission-Landscape-17•

We all agree that x is wrong is a fallicious argument. Speifically a bandwagon fallacy

-8
YuvithegodOP•

Sure, I should've said:

"We all agree pedophiles raping 9 year olds are wrong because 9 year olds cannot ever provide informed consent to sexual acts." I did say that later anyway.

7
Mission-Landscape-17•

That doesn't really solve the underlying problem of establishing an objective moral standard. You stillenl up with a subjective standard on informed consent being valuable.

-6
YuvithegodOP•

Then why do you think it's immoral for an adult man to have sex with a 9 year old? If my moral reasoning I'd fallacious and doesn't address the underlying reason, can you explain why you think pedophillic acts are wrong?

7
Mission-Landscape-17•

The best I could do is go to maximising happiness, or human flourishing. But that in itself is a subjective goal that I can't justifiy, or at least I'm not aware of any purely logical justification for it. And yes here is a point of contention between theists and atheists as many theists are focused on getting the best afterlife rather than maximising human flourishing in the present.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

-8
YuvithegodOP•

I'm a British-Indian atheist. i agreed with comments that denounce similar occurrences in Christianity where it makes people worse.

The reason I didn't talk on Christianity over Islam, or on religion as a whole, is because I know very little about it. It would be wrong for me to speak baselessly on something I am uneducated with. Where did I claim this was exclusive to Islam?

In fact, I'm quite unsure as to why you built such assumptions so baselessly, where have I ever defended, or even said I like, Christianity?

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
MacroSolid•

facepalm

Islam has largely the same problems as Christianity, so atheists have every reason to critizise both. And no, christian right wingers hating on Islam is no sane reason to think noone else would bash it.

5