Source
r/ChineseLanguage•
AggressiveSloth

Struggling to recognise words outside of language app context

Studying

I've been trying to learn Chinese using Lingodeer but I find it nearly impossible to remember any of the words outside of the lessons.

For example, if someone said to me "是夏天了" that is a sentence I would be able to understand if I was currently in a weather/season related lesson but outside of that I just have this feeling of recognition but no clue what was actually said

Is this a normal process that I will overcome in time? Or should I just use something like Pimsleur instead?

My motivation for learning is just talking with my Chinese friends so I'd rather focus on being able to comprehend and speak basic spoken sentences than being able to read basic sentences

Posted Feb 12, 2023, 4:30 PM UTC · edited

3422
NicokeSenpai•

Well to be really fair I’m a native Chinese speaker and I probably would still take some time to register that in my head. But don’t worry, you’ll come to learn these things the more Chinese you speak. That phrase is pretty specific in a sense? So you would never hear if outside of that very specific setting about the weather so don’t worry too much

20
AggressiveSlothOP•

That's true but also what I mean is that I need some other visual prompt like hanzi/pinyin to actually make the connection in my mind.

Maybe I need to work on my pinyin knowledge so I can visualise the words in my mind without needing to have them written out?

On the contrary the few sentences I have learned as whole sentences(outside of lingodeer) I feel I can recall much better to the point where I can actually speak them and modify them rather than just seeing them as individual words.

3
NicokeSenpai•

Ahh okay I get what u mean. Many terms in Chinese usually come in “ sets “, typically 2-4 ( eg 太阳，眼睛，云朵 ) so in most situations it wouldn’t make sense to separate the words ( 太 and 阳 don’t make much sense separately ). A tip I can suggest is looking out for these terms because they’re rarely separated. For example, “ 是夏天了 “ has ” 夏天 “, which is another term that is grouped together. If you can read it together instead of individual characters you will sound more fluent as well.

Unfortunately I can’t give too much advice about prompts except that for now the only thing you can do is rely on context clues . In my opinion, Hanyupinyin is no longer needed for learning Chinese if you can read the character. Just in case anyone else is reading as well, please don’t learn Chinese as just letters LOL.

And point 3, this is in a way a good thing. Sometimes certain characters don’t make sense outside of long phrases. The only one I have at the top of my head right now is a saying that goes ” 三十六计 走为上计 “, which literally means nothing if you only look at individual characters ( direct translation: thirty six plans, walk as up Plan ) but it makes sense together, meaning “ if all else fails, retreat “.

Lmk if u hv anymore questions and I’ll be happy to answer!

8
Refold•

I think you could benefit a lot from getting more input. I've found that the more input I get, the easier it is to remember words.

Have you tried any graded readers yet? DuChinese is a great one for beginners, their newbie level is very accessible.

~ Lindsey

15
AggressiveSlothOP•

I haven't so I'll give that a go.

You bring up a good point about just getting more input though. I have been slowing down with continuing more lessons on Lingdoor because I feel the need to better memorise my existing vocab but do you think this is a bad idea?

Should I just continue trying to add more words even though I struggle to recall some of the old words?

6
Refold•

I'm honestly not sure. I used to struggle with the same thing as you when I started learning with Hello Chinese. I just don't think those types of apps are the best for remembering vocab.

When I switched to mostly using graded readers instead, my issues with forgetting words slowly went away.

4
AggressiveSlothOP•

I've just had a look at DuChineseand I think this will be great to use alongside lingodeer. Skipping through some of those lessons I can actually understand more than I thought I would be able to so hearing the sentences, I hope, will help me overcome that block.

5
Refold•

Glad to hear it!

3
mejomonster•

I think that's normal. I think there's both learnjng a word in a study situation where you purposely study it and are aware of trying to remember it (like an app or anki flashcards or a words quiz or notes), and then there's learnjng to comprehend the things you already studied but haven't practiced recognizing in normal conversations and media. So as you practice more conversations with friends you'll recognize the words you studied quicker/easier, as you watch shows and read more. It takes a little while to go from "I recognize 天气 on a flashcard and guessed the right meaning" to seeing 天气变暖和了 in a show or hearing it in conversation and realizing your friend went from saying they're tired and love drawing and switched to talking about the weather. It just takes running into the words you've already studied more in conversations and media.

There's also passive vocabulary and active vocabulary. Passive vocabulary is words you recognize the meaning of when listening/reading, and active vocabulary is words you can immediately think up and say when having a conversation. It's normal to have a bigger passive vocabulary based on words you have studied and gotten used to recognizing and comprehending in conversations and media. Whereas active vocabulary will be smaller and gets better by practicing speaking and writing so the words come to you easier when you want to use them.

7
AggressiveSlothOP•

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

Part of my frustration comes from the fact people say the best way to learn is the whole "comprehensible input" method but at this rate, it feels impossible that I could even get to the level where I'd be able to listen to conversations/read pinyin+hanzi and understand 80% of it

2
mejomonster•

Ignore any advice you've heard about comprehensible input for a moment. It is normal in a conventional study plan of classes/teachers/textbooks to study to a decent intermediate level, then the class will add having conversations with classmates or teachers or native speakers in chinese, and the class will add reading assignments of reading news for native speakers and novels. A class may also include graded readers (which is just reading material aimed to be comprehensible to you since you'll know most of the words - i liked Mandarin Companion books) at beginner and intermediate levels. So even a traditional learner will eventually do some activities of practicing using the language by having conversations, writing things, listening, and reading materials for native speakers. Eventually all learners do some practicing of the things they've studied, and it always is hard at first. It's hard to learn to recognize the words you've studied in an actual novel whether you know 500 words or 4000 if you're just starting to practice reading. It takes practice to eventually get better at recognizing what you've studied, and then of course it takes more years of study until you've studied as much as you need (so if someone starts reading at 500 words studied they'll still need to study/learn thousands of more words eventually).

It's okay, you will eventually get there. It depends on your learning style and study plan and preferences but you will eventually be able to listen to conversations and read hanzi. For some people it takes months (I know one person who pushed into intensively reading webnovels within 6 months of study) and for some it takes years (some people pass HSK 6 after 4-6 years before they work on reading novels). Some people try to have conversations within year 1 and start practicing that skill sooner, others wait 2-4 years. It's okay no matter how you get there. You will eventually be able to do whatever your goals are in the language. Take things a step at a time gradually like you have been, you're getting better every day.

4
Zagrycha•

Yes its normal, learning things like pinyin or characters is something that can take months to carve a little space out in your brain for, haha. personally characters themselves went in one eye amd out the other when I first started learning, with zero retention when I wasn't actively looking at them. eventually there was a time it got much better. now I can look up a new chinese vocab in the dictionary, and its just as good as looking it up in english, maybe not memorized but remmebered :)

that said, If your goal is talking with friends, I actually recommended learning to read the basics so you can text with them etc. However if your goal is only to speak thats okay, you may want to switch to hello chinese as you can choose only pinyin to learn.

What you are describing is a totally normal thing at early levels. However if it is lingering past its welcome, you may have to evaluate if it an issue with your study method being too passive/ ill suited/ etc.

Perhaps the active studying in hello chinese. where a real person says something to you, then you either need to pick what they said, pick the response to what they said, or say the response to it etc.

or else maybe something like graded readers where you can start reading things in actual real contexts. you don't mention your level or how long you've been studying, and of course everyone learns at a different speed. but if you are past the beginning and still have this issue maybe these thoughts will help :)

2
AggressiveSlothOP•

I'll give Hello Chinese a go too then.

I certainly found lingodeer the best for picking up vocab initially but I think a lot of it stays at that multi choice Q&A level that they are teaching with.

So given a choice between 4 words I would click the correct translation but I would struggle to understand the word in a sentence even when prompted about the topic

1
Zagrycha•

hello chinese may be good for you, it still has that style of question but it has a much bigger focus on learning grammar of many kinds with the amount of vocab it teaches you. and If you have the money the premium version has even more speaking and listening practice for beginners (some of the best at beginning levels imo).

you can go all the way through the regulars lessons for free however so you can see if you like it :)

2
SuccessfulEditor8337•

Pimsleur helped me a lot, actually. I recommend it. You need to listen to Chinese podcasts / videos every day as well, and actively focus on trying to recognise words you've learnt in the app.

2
Tom_The_HumanHSK18级•

Read, read, read, read. And watch simple things like Peppa Pig and Crayon Shin-Chan in Chinese.

Oh, and read.

1
AggressiveSlothOP•

But what if I'm not interested in learning how to read just yet? Will this still help me with speaking?

I plan to do a working holiday in Taiwan in 2024 so I want to be able to have some basic level of conversation by then which I know wont be easy

1
Tom_The_HumanHSK18级•

The most important thing is input. Also, reading is essential to progressing beyond beginner communication (take it from someone who refused to learn to read during his first year spending Mandarin)

2
AggressiveSlothOP•

Yeah, I certainly feel seeing stuff written down helps me remember so it's not like I totally reject that stuff.

but I do not see the value in spending hours trying to forcefully memorise Hanzi. I can already recognise a few characters just from exposure to them without consciously studying them so that is how I plan to keep it

1
Tom_The_HumanHSK18级•

Because one Hanzi can be used in many different words, which makes learning new words easier as you already know what the Hanzi could mean from other contexts. For example 明智，明白，高明 all have the character 明. If I tell you that 明白 means to understand, 明智 means wise, and 高 (another common character) means tall/high, you should at least have an idea what 高明 means, right?

That being said, this all depends on your goals. If you just want to learn survival Chinese, characters are unnecessary. If you want to communicate with native speakers on a deeper level (i.e. if you want to have higher level conversations, communicate more nuanced thoughts, connect through idioms/colloquialisms/memes), I don't see how you could do that without learning characters.

Edit: As an aside, learning Hanzi gives you access to the Chinese internet (and the Chinese part of Reddit) which is an experience in and of itself).

2
Dragonfly-danser:level-beginner: Beginner's Mind•

???Question here: Is there anything like Du Chinese using Traditional Characters. I was just now out there, but reading simplified characters always confuses and slows me down. Any suggestions much appreciated.

1