Questions, and conversations about "Real" natural setups in Vivariums, Palidarum, and related habitat enclosures...

Hi Bioactive Members,

I'm a former Zookeeper, Park Naturalist, and Nature "Geek" that has been "lurking" in the background of forums, chat rooms, and the like regarding the "new" (???) bioactive craze over the last decade...

After being active as a Wilderness Guide, and designer of natural architecture for over 40 years now as well, I have been asked if I could write a book on "natural enclosures." After seeing what was out there this past decade, I had concerns I want to examine from the many in this hobby both as professionals now and as amateur hobbyists...

I am also posting this same "chat" on r/Vivarium regarding all the very..." toxic and industrial"... plastics, concrete, silicon, and other materials being used today to construct these enclosures. I know many of these (not all) are inert when dry, but working with them is a challenge and some of them do not have good long-term positive track records...

Here are a few of my questions to start (thanks in advance) to those that wish to respond. This will help me form a basis for the book's general outline and whether there is any actual interest in ...more natural construction methods...or if the "status quo" of industrial methods suits most in the hobby...regardless of the industry's poor track records for polluting the planet...

Since most folks in this hobby..." love nature"...do they ever think about the...massively polluting industries...behind many of the products they purchase that support the further degradation of our planet's natural ecology?
Are they aware of it how toxic many of these products are to work with in the "raw wet state" and the pollution created in producing them?
If they could learn alternative methods and understanding, (clays, wood, natural textiles, natural polymer finishes, limecrete for stonework, etc.) would that be a book they would want to read?

HUGE...THANK YOU...!!!...in advance for your response and conversation over these questions...

Posted Mar 10, 2023, 7:26 PM UTC

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Noctuema•3 yr. ago

I’d love to hear you elaborate a little bit about your issues with bioactive building, because the questions asked seem rather accusatory instead of conversational.

If you’re talking about sealants and expanding foam, it’s commonplace to only use aquarium-grade materials that are built with animal contact in mind. People antagonize over the safest and least toxic materials, there’s dozens of people discussing the safety aspect every week among reptile subs. New suggestions and ideas are being explored everyday. I know I personally have put in hours of research to narrow down my ideal materials. Most bioactive tanks have minimal non-natural elements; the background hardscape is usually the only intentionally designed non-natural material. The rest of typically stones, substrate, wood, real plants… real rock and clay is avoided for backgrounds because of the danger it poses to the animal if it fell.

People who put the time, energy and craftsmanship into bioactive tanks seem to collective just want the best most natural environment they can create for their animals. We as humans have taken them out of the wild and bred them and have become their sole caretakers; it’s our job to offer them the best life, one that allows them to display their natural behaviors.

The footprint of a bioactive tank is almost surely significantly less than a tank full of dozens of plastic decor, no? I’d love to hear your thoughts.

[deleted]•3 yr. ago

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Noctuema•3 yr. ago

Are you aware that most go to great lengths to assure the materials they use are as reliable as possible? Do you know the only unnatural element in most bioactive tanks is the background hardscape, which is already pet grade and sealed to prevent any issues? That people leave the material to harden for days to assure any fumes don’t interfere with the well-being of the animal in question?
Is a tank full of plastic decor and styrofoam much worse for the environment, taking into consideration the pollution from manufacturing, overseas shipping, packaging and being made of materials that are not decomposable? Are you aware that just about everything in life has an ecological footprint, and having a naturalistic tank is pretty low on that totem pole? That we use more plastic and non recyclables in a supermarket trip than we do making a bioactive tank that will last 5+ years? That our tanks include real plants too, which helps create oxygen in our environments as well?
Are you aware people already do use a wide variety of artistic mediums in our tanks, but are limited due to safety concerns, especially with animals that require high humidity (textiles have risk of molding/rotting for example) and animals that take in fluids through their skin (dyes and chemicals can be deadly!)

[deleted]•3 yr. ago

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Noctuema•3 yr. ago

I hope you can realize how pretentious you’re being.

When I say people do their research, I mean it. Sure it’s not everybody, but this community is active and intelligent and constantly questioning our practices. When we see pet grade, we research and look into what’s in the product. We ask around on peoples experiences and options. We weigh the benefits and risks. We do what any hobbyist reasonably can.

What I mean by bringing up the plastic decor is that for most people, that’s the alternative. Bioactive is significantly better for the environment. Mentioning that the footprint of a bioactive tank is lesser than that of a grocery trip definitely matters when you’re trying to position bioactive tanks as some major destructive environmental blunder.

This isn’t “traditional architecture”, this is hobbyists doing what they can within their financial means. We ARE limited by finances, accessibility to materials, time to learn and use them, space to use them, the extensive research that goes into making sure these things aren’t gonna kill our beloved pets- so. Many. Factors.

We are all just doing our best within our means. What we are working towards is MILES better than the standard most people keep their pets in. If you wanna bust someone’s balls about sustainability, you’ve got much bigger fish to fry. When half of the worlds greenhouse gas emissions can be traced back to 25 money hungry companies, the raindrop effect being referenced to a literal 3 foot tall reptile tank is such a joke. Take it up with China Coal (14.3 %), Saudi Aramco (4.5 %), Gazprom OAO (3.9 %), National Iranian Oil Co (2.3 %), ExxonMobil Corp (2.0 %), Coal India (1.9 %), Petróleos Mexicanos (1.9 %), Russia Coal (1.9 %), Royal Dutch Shell PLC (1.7 %), China National Petroleum Corp (1.6 %).

Either be nice, offer advice and alternatives, or leave us alone at this point. You’re not better than everybody here. P.S; I am college educated on humanitarian and environmental issues. Belittling people is a really poor way of getting them to consider your input.

TaisonMor•3 yr. ago

One of the main issues I see is that even with the attempt at mimicking a natural system, these setups are for the most part just way too small to be set up with only natural materials in the way that people want to set them up. The background for example has very few natural options and none are great. Real rock can work, but it tends to be very heavy and needs plenty of adhesive. Things like tree fern and cork can work, but still usually require adhesive and will decompose over time in humid environments. There are similar issues with using branches. Give them a few years and they are decomposing. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but it seems like the best we can do is try to balance natural and synthetic inputs to avoid the slow decline to an unsatisfying pile of dirt.

Whether it is environmentally friendly to keep animals in the first place or to try to keep them in the style that is currently popular seems like a slightly different conversation. If this was just about nature, these animals would never be seen because they would be happiest in their natural environment and nobody would visit them due to the carbon costs of traveling.

TaisonMor•3 yr. ago

Just to add to this for your third point. If you could give natural alternatives that would survive the conditions of the enclosures and we're economically viable, I'm sure people would be interested. Moreover, if you marketed those materials, you would have a nice business.

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

these setups are for the most part just way too small to be set up with only natural materials in the way that people want to set them up.

I would agree with you on much of that...

There is certainly a husbandry disconnect between many species and the "fake nature" many are doing and sadly others are emulating...

The background for example has very few natural options and none are great. Real rock can work, but it tends to be very heavy and needs plenty of adhesive.

There are many "natural options" this is a matter of knowledge base and skill set...not that there are no options.

All in all...weight is also a nonstarter...for a reason not to use rock when..."natural rock"...is the look someone is going for. Past the normal lifting capacity of the average person 75lb to 150lb most vivariums far outweigh that anyway, and when water is added it's more. Weight is simply not part of the equation...

Things like tree fern and cork can work, but still usually require adhesive and will decompose over time in humid environments...

No, they do not in many applications of such organic materials as "mechanical fastening" is an option that few ever explore or learn how to do well. Thus, once more, a false assumption based on a lack of skill set or not knowing other "natural" adhesive modalities........

Give them a few years and they are decomposing.

If the goal is a "bioactive" and "natural section" confined to an enclosure, the "decay" within balance is part of the enclosure. As for "few years" that is simply not true in all examples at all. When I ask in classes how much time it takes for wood to completely decompose to not be recognizable many guess a few months to a few years...when in reality...a log in a forest can take up to 500 to almost 1000 years to become completely decamped some species faster than others...

Again, this is more about "knowledge base" than "not using these materials...

I'm happy to be proven wrong, but it seems like the best we can do is try to balance natural and synthetic inputs to avoid the slow decline to an unsatisfying pile of dirt.

I'm not here to "prove" anything, as I am mainly openly now examining the hobby from a position that most simply are not looking at nor it seems, even have the skill sets to approach...The reason I am writing a book on the subject...

Whether it is environmentally friendly to keep animals in the first place or to try to keep them in the style that is currently popular seems like a slightly different conversation.

I would agree with that in many ways...

Too many anthropomorphisms there "pets" fail to really emulate the biome suited for them, but as stated, this is another topic of discussion...

these animals would never be seen because they would be happiest in their natural environment

That actually is not true at all...and it is also an anthropomorphic response because you are now "assuming" you know how a given species may...or may not...react to being in captivity...or...that they even understand the concept of "captive." Those that study animal ethology and also specialize in enclosure design (a profession I once was in but left) understand well that many species can be made "unaware" that they are "captive" at all by adjusting their baseline normative traits and needs while not losing normal behavioral parameters in the process...

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TempUserPointed123•3 yr. ago

I think you lost people with the copious amount of self-aggrandizing statements:

I'm a former Zookeeper, Park Naturalist, and Nature "Geek" that has been "lurking" in the background of forums, chat rooms, and the like regarding the "new" (???) bioactive craze over the last decade...

^^ Yet no examples of your actual work history. Statements like "new (???) bioactive craze" are by default inflammatory, as living terrariums have been around since before 2009. The term bioactive became popular in 2016-2017, but the hobby/"craze" has been around for a long while before that.

I teach this and several related subjects. I'm a former Park Naturalist, and Zookeeper and have been designing (on and off) biome enclosures at the museum and zoological part/aquarium level for over 30 years, mainly for private collectors but mostly for myself in the past decade...

^^ Ah yes, you've been involved in this "10 year old craze" this 30 years. So much so that you've been "Teaching bioactive terrariums" as a profession! So much experience! Any examples of your "30 years of experience" worth of work"? Or examples of these "great new sustainable" ideas you've got? Or maybe places where your custom installations can be viewed? Or maybe a single long term bioactive terrarium that you've built? Anything other than a resume with no references?

Let's be clear again about expertise here...I design and build traditional and natural architecture. I am a working timberwright, historical stone mason, Arborist, and Sawyer who also works professionally in numerous other guild arts from textiles to ceramics. I also have an extensive background in the life sciences. I do teach these subjects as well...

^^ Starting a paragraph with "Lets be clear about expertise here" perfectly illustrates your level of pompousness. I think you must have spent a few too many years in school thinking this is the way you speak to people and introduce yourself.

Invoking vocations like "timeberwright" and "guild artist" rather than "carpenter" or "contractor" speaks VOLUMES to one's actual capabilities. Again, this screams "academic" - not "skilled professional".

Since I have made glass as well and just finished another kiln for a student of mine I can clearly state that you do not know this subject as well as you think you do other than what you are "Googling" on the internet.

^^ So experienced in terrariums that you've literally made glass! How dare these insolent hobbyists question your superior methods with our clearly inferior "GOOGLING" skills. How DARE we form independent thought and perform independent research! Don't these people realize you are an architect, glazier, timeberwright, mason, arborist, teacher, sawyer, zoologist, park naturalist, and literal rocket scientist?! How dare these peasants speak back to you and your incredible intellect! My god - YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE AN AUTHOR! Your opinions must be held above all others!

You sound like an over-educated elite idealist preaching your "EXTREMELY WELL INFORMED" virtue-signaling opinions. This group may be willing to listen, but you've provided literally zero better examples with any specificity in any of the posts on this thread. Worse, your level of self-aggrandizement is borderline criminal. You said you were a "teacher" but you sound more like a college professor. Am I close? ;-)

Take a breath and realize there's more than one way to successfully take part in the hobby. How much can you contribute when your "special secret business dealings" prevent you from actually offering anything to the hobby in terms of information? If you want to sell a book by talking down to a bunch of potential customers, you should probably reconsider that model and speak to someone with experience. Maybe an entrepreneur, rather than an academic? Forums aren't supposed to be a one way street, and the unqualified cryptic gatekeeping is hilarious, especially considering you've listed "teacher" as one of your 326 expert-level professions.

Any ounce of credibility further went out the window with this statement:

I have shared with others that have, some of the materials are in R&D with a company I work with to develop them so I can't discuss them publicly yet

So... You are an educator looking to write a book likely meant as an instruction manual for the products you'll soon offer to the public, but you've got to make sure the public agrees with your "SUPER VIRTUOUS" product line first before you begin the project. Great. I bet the prices will be very competitive with well established, long proven free market options. You'll show them!

Maybe the OP should consider approaching hobbyists with respect, and try to imagine a world where they aren't the smartest or most experienced member of every group they are a member of? The hobby can be improved without egotistical bombastic statements which have zero actual examples to back them up. Just walking around and pointing screaming "THAT'S BAD! MY WAY - which I won't discuss - IS BETTER!" with an unwarranted level of self-confidence isn't the best path forward. Maybe provide examples of literally anything before trying this again. ;-)

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

Hello u/TempUserPointed123...

First, thank you for commenting with your perspectives...They are appreciated and I will attempt to go through and address each one...

I think you lost people with the copious amount of self-aggrandizing statements:

That seems to be the perspective of about 50% of those that have commented. I would offer that is an opinion of those that may be "feeling" things about this that I have only brought attention to, in a way, that some take offense to for some reason...others didn't...

As for "self-aggrandizing," I did not mean for it to be so, nor did others take it that way, yet some (like you?) seem to have. I'm 63 years old and have had several wonderful careers...A few of them aligned with this hobby. Sharing that is just a fact...nothing more...

Yet no examples of your actual work history...

Either you did not look or your speaking of something else (???) I know not which. All my contact info is on my Reddit profile including an abridged CV on Linkedin.

Again "craze" is what the industry itself uses as a term in their internal marketing (i.e. why it was in quotes) and took offense it seems that while others got excited to learn something so DM me further to get on a contact list when and/or how I publish some of these methods and means of construction...

The market of terrariums and related biome enclosures today is a billion-dollar industry and growing. Yes, it existed before 2009, but nothing like it does today...I know, as I have been in it since 1972. I've been in and out of this profession several times since then so I think I have a pretty good handle on what it is...

Ah yes, you've been involved in this "10 year old craze" this 30 years. So much so that you've been "Teaching bioactive terrariums" as a profession! So much experience!

Though the tone in that comment is rather condescending and snarky, I will still respond...Yes, I have designed and/or built many for longer than 30 years if you want to get technical about it since I "sold" my first installation in the late 70s and my largest today in the early 80s. As another poster here already challenged me, and I addressed when and where they are at (or "were at," as I'm sure they have changed by now.) So either read the other comments or don't...

Considering I have actual "reference letters" on my CV your comment about no references is nonsensical. Are they from a zoo...of course not, the people to speak with are freaking dead...get a clue...!!??..I'm 63 and most of what I did in the profession (not all of it) was done before you were even born...as I'm guessing (please do correct me)...that you're between 20 and 30 years old...or I hope you are to be so judgemental with your tone...

Again, this screams "academic" - not "skilled professional".

I do have a great deal of appreciation for academia, but I also, most certainly know its shortcomings as well. Those shortcomings are precisely why I opted to "get a job" and travel over finishing a higher degree...

As for your other misguided opinions, your welcome them as you clearly have not made any effort to look at the body of my work that I have chosen to share, as I do not, nor am inclined to, share all of it as I really "don't care" what people think. The work itself speaks for itself and that is enough for me...

you've provided literally zero better examples with any specificity in any of the posts on this thread.

The post thread, and the way 50% have taken it, were questions about what..." the group"...might be interested in for designing, and creating enclose that do not rely so much on noxious industrial products...

This post...WAS NOT...about what I've done or can do, but as stated "questions of interest," and I have found very positive responses in 50% here. With the other 50% presenting as intolerant, obtuse, and rather arrogant themselves...

I'm still not 100% clear where you are at yet, as you just may have had a bad day...Your nest response to this one will shed better light on your actual position and pesonality...

You said you were a "teacher" but you sound more like a college professor. Am I close? ;-)

LMAO...Not even in the parking lot of the college stadium but maybe on the road going in the other direction...LOL...

Take a breath and realize there's more than one way to successfully take part in the hobby.

I do, and what I have seen are nasty plastics and other...UNNESSARY...industrial materials that should not be used...but Hey...have at it if you like them...

How much can you contribute when your "special secret business dealings" prevent you from actually offering anything to the hobby in terms of information?

That depends on you and your choices...currently, I have very little to offer you...but whether that would change is entirely in your hands...

If you want to sell a book by talking down to a bunch of potential customers, you should probably reconsider that model and speak to someone with experience.

The 50% I got are great, and I'm thankful for them...as for the other 50%...it is sad that so many are so close-minded and unable to take constructive feedback about their methods...but again, if they like "fake nature"...as many clearly do, then it is a matter of choice. I don't like it, but that is just my view of it...To each their own...

Maybe an entrepreneur, rather than an academic?

That is even more laughable, but you would have to know me personally to understand why that is true...LMAO...!!!

unqualified cryptic gatekeeping is hilarious, especially considering you've listed "teacher" as one of your 326 expert-level professions.

326...???...I listed that many...???...WOW...Do you exaggerate about everything in your life or just when you are condescending?

You had a chance to "ask questions" with all your posts, but rather spent time making false assumptions and soundly like a "tool" that is probably way more arrogant than I could ever manage to be...but again (???)...maybe just a bad day and your second go-round will be different...

Great. I bet the prices will be very competitive with well established, long proven free market options. You'll show them!

Since part of that pedantic and even more condescending comment has some sibilance of a question I will respond...

The book will mostly be about skills one can develop to build biome enclosures that are 98% (by mass and/or volume) all-natural and created from materials that are either free or of much less cost than running to your local industrial park and/or "big box store" to spend cash on crap materials meant for something else besides a natural enclosure to house a plant, pet or other creature...

The one I'm trying to work with a company on is a repurposing of a botanical-based product that is made only from plants and natural minerals which is highly durable and used in the "natural architecture" profession...yet could well be repurposed to the natural biome enclosures hobby and cost way less than what industrial toxic foam, silicone, and related by volume (current projected cost is about $2 to $4 per square feet of area) but I'm shooting for less if possible and all "profit" from this, on my end, goes toward more research, charities in this and related fields...

Maybe the OP should consider approaching hobbyists with respect

Hmmm...???..."Maybe" 50% of the members commenting could not be so "thinned skinned" and condescending to actually ask positive questions rather than making obtuse assumptions...

Maybe provide examples of literally anything before trying this again. ;-)

Maybe actually try looking and as stated...asking real questions...Try again with your next comment, and maybe this first contact between us can get turned in a more positive direction...

ZealousStrand•3 yr. ago

That depends on the welfare of my reptiles. For instance: clay and wood are well-known for porosity. How would you go about sterilizing should the need occur? Natural Sealant? Guarantee to not be toxic to animals?

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

That depends on the welfare of my reptiles. For instance: clay and wood are well-known for porosity.

Yes, they are...but they are already in bioactive enclosures so the event of a pathogen needing removal will mean some form of invasive action anyway...

With the current trend, this is a case of complete tear down fully anyway as there simply is not the way to effectively sterilize everything inside the enclosure.

With a natural one (or more natural would be proper) they can hopefully "heal" in many cases...

This disconnect is the same logic that came in the food industry (still prevalent in many cities) that insisted that commercial kitchens, butcher shops, and the like...ONLY!!!...use plastic cutting boards because "wood" is not safe...Which was an "industry hype" by those companies petroleum-based companies selling (and lobbying) for the exclusivity of their products...When in reality, plastic has proven to be impossible, in most cases to really get clean the more it is used resulting in more "consumerism" (good for the manufacturer!!!) as the old plastic ones have to be thrown out. However, we have (and have now relearned) that many "butcher blocks" made of wood are naturally bacterial resistant and actually can be sterilized easily...which is why we still have some that are over 100 years old and in continued "safe" use to this very day...

How would you go about sterilizing should the need occur?

That is a good question, but thus far, I have not had a case where I've needed to other than water change, or "spot" replication in a "dieback" event for a given plant or animal.

With the natural enclosures, they tend to reach a state of homeostasis...as do some of the current ones that are more "organic" and less..." plastic."

Natural Sealant? Guarantee to not be toxic to animals?

There are a number of them, just not well used these days...Aquariums have been around for over 300 years...Silicone has been around for about 50 in the aquarium world...and the list goes on of the many out there "reinventing" systems rather than actually "learning" how it was done...

carnivorous_unicorns•3 yr. ago

How about you get off your high horse and instead of being passive aggressive asshole you tell us then how to do the job better? Because all you do now is point fingers and gatekeep at the same time.

ScorpioSpork•3 yr. ago

Exactly. This guy is arrogant, and nothing I've read so far in this thread has any substance.

[deleted]•3 yr. ago

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ZealousStrand•3 yr. ago

Apologies if I come out harsh, but you cannot base your premise on speculation of how things were done 300 years ago. They were still practicing bloodletting and giving mercury internally 150 years ago. The Industrial Revolution occurred within the past 300 years.
Taking care of the environment or even a concept of "non-toxic" was not at play.

On the subject of sealing: You cannot permanently seal wood using natural sealants. Reapplication is necessary to prevent leaks and breakdown of the organic structure. If you are referring only to using glass: that is no longer manufactured using perceived environmentally friendly methods. Most of these facilities use coal or oil to heat the furnace used to melt the media.

As far as us making a difference in the grand scheme of things: If our small group were to stop using plastic in our enclosures, it would not prevent the manufacture of plastic terrarium decoration. Those items not sold would sit in a warehouse and eventually make their way to a landfill. How does that differ from today?

I am personally more concerned with the trend to easily discard and replace wood-based items, which leads to increased deforestation and further destruction of our reptiles native environments. What is your stance on this trend?

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

Hello u/ZealousStrand,

I have zero issues with blunt or harsh if it is founded in actual knowledge and not your own biases or assumptions...

you cannot base your premise on speculation of how things were done 300 years ago.

Did you read any of the other conversations and posts as I suggested?

I teach this and several related subjects. I'm a former Park Naturalist, and Zookeeper and have been designing (on and off) biome enclosures at the museum and zoological part/aquarium level for over 30 years, mainly for private collectors but mostly for myself in the past decade...

There is no..."speculation"...on my part as I do this work at the professional level or why would I be considering writing a book?

The Industrial Revolution occurred within the past 300 years.Taking care of the environment or even a concept of "non-toxic" was not at play.

Actualy that is not true, but it was often ignored...

On the subject of sealing: You cannot permanently seal wood using natural sealants.

You are correct that the only known material to 100% seal wood (not a good practice) is wax as to even achieve 90% sealing with epoxies you have to use over 10 coats in many applications or "pot" the wood which is not cost-effective and is outside the context of this discussion as it is a plastic...

However, for some applications, you can coat the wood with a botanical-based polymer that is a natural product and it will render the wood "protected enough" to make an enclosure of certain types. In others, you would (as I have!) employ different modalities...

Reapplication is necessary to prevent leaks and breakdown of the organic structure.

No, it is not nor is that effective...Let's be clear again about expertise here...I design and build traditional and natural architecture. I am a working timberwright, historical stone mason, Arborist, and Sawyer who also works professionally in numerous other guild arts from textiles to ceramics. I also have an extensive background in the life sciences. I do teach these subjects as well...

If you are referring only to using glass: that is no longer manufactured using perceived environmentally friendly methods.

Since I have made glass as well and just finished another kiln for a student of mine I can clearly state that you do not know this subject as well as you think you do other than what you are "Googling" on the internet.

Since this topic does involve all sorts of modern technologies it is not ever going to achieve 100% "organic status" but it could improve dramatically compared to the noxious and unnecessary methods currently being used...

Most of these facilities use coal or oil to heat the furnace used to melt the media.

Actually, most do not...they use electric heat now for better furnaces, some use wood (a renewable resource) while others are turning to "biogas." However, that is moot as stated, not all elements of modernity are going to be avoided yet the ones that can...should be...

As far as us making a difference in the grand scheme of things: If our small group were to stop using plastic in our enclosures, it would not prevent the manufacture of plastic terrarium decoration.

That is not a "reason" that is an excuse and a justification for not wanting to change your position or status. That is the obtuse notion that a "raindrop" is not important...yet when combined with a storm it makes mountains move.

"Pretending" or "wanting" to ignore your individual carbon footprint (regardless of this hobby but lifestyle as well) is a choice...you can make it or chose to..."make excuses"...for not trying to make a difference...

Those items not sold would sit in a warehouse and eventually make their way to a landfill. How does that differ from today?

That again is justification...not a solution to the issue or response to the question...

I am personally more concerned with the trend to easily discard and replace wood-based items, which leads to increased deforestation

Actually, it does not, because a lot of it (not all of it as it should be) is a "by-product" so you want to get your fact straight about what "sustainable forest,"..."urban forestry"...and related topics are and how they can be utilized...

ZealousStrand•3 yr. ago

Since this conversation is no longer about bioactive setups, we can take this to private conversation if you so choose.

Apologies to those in the group.

WanderingJude•3 yr. ago

I'm not sure if bioactive owners are primarily also nature lovers. Like I'm sure if you asked most people if they liked nature they'd probably say yes, but I think for most bios the driving factor is the love for the critter that lives in it rather than a wider fascination with nature and ecology. So no, I don't think pollution is at all a primary concern of most bioactive builders.
Aware of toxicity when raw, probably yes. But again no with the pollution.
I'd guess that most people would not go out and read a book on that subject, but many of us would be interested in a website, article, or YouTube series.

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

I'm not sure if bioactive owners are primarily also nature lovers.

I think you may be correct and something I find very odd...???

People who...do not...really love or care about nature as a whole, yet they wish to take and make some form of "fake nature" inside the space where they live. That strikes me as a disconnect in some way...

Even if they "love the critter," do they really think (believe) that sticking them in something laden with industrial materials is a "good idea" compared to more natural ones?

If that is all true, then you are also correct that they don't care about pollution or what is happening to the planet...which again...???...seems like another massive disconnect...

I'd guess that most people would not go out and read a book on that subject, but many of us would be interested in a website, article, or YouTube series.

So, in your view, the "media source" is critical for getting this information out there. Thanks for sharing that perspective, I was wondering what kind of impact that had on this topic.

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WanderingJude•3 yr. ago

Even if they "love the critter," do they really think (believe) that sticking them in something laden with industrial materials is a "good idea" compared to more natural ones?

In my experience there is definitely conversation and concern around what is safe for the animal when cured, but no emphasis on natural vs industrial. Silicone, for example. Lots of discussion on what brands and types are safe when dry, but no discussion on pollution or natural alternatives. The focus is on safety, effectiveness, availability and durability, and that's where a natural substitute would have to prove itself superior.

they don't care about pollution or what is happening to the planet...which again...???...seems like another massive disconnect...

Again, I think if you asked people they'd say they cared. But I don't think they'd feel like they could actually do anything to measurably make a difference. It does not feel to me like making my bioactive background out of natural rather than unnatural materials will make one lick of difference in the grand scheme of things. Reptile keeping is a niche hobby. Bioactives or people who do DIY backgrounds are a niche within a niche. If we all switched to natural materials, would there really be any change in the trajectory of climate change?

Most people do things for the climate if:

it is just as easy or easier than the polluting alternative, or
it's a little difficult but they believe it will have a big impact, or
they are forced to

To make a widespread change in bioactive building habits you would need to either find something natural that was just as easy to find and use and afford as the popular materials today, or you would need to provide proof that the current materials are definitely harming the reptiles who live with them. I do not think pollution will draw people many people to inconvenience themselves more in what is already a fairly expensive and labor intensive process.

the "media source" is critical for getting this information out there

Absolutely. The majority of the conversation around building these is online. Any attempt to influence a change would have to be as well.

OfSalt14•3 yr. ago

Very well said! I’d also like to add that for vivarium hobbyists, cost is a huge driving factor. Unfortunately lots of industrial materials like silicone are cheaper and easier to use than making/mixing/curing more natural materials like clay. I would certainly love to create a vivarium with a lower ecological footprint, but the availability of such materials I feel like is small.

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

Hi u/OfSalt14

Thanks for commenting and sharing your viewpoints...

vivarium hobbyists, cost is a huge driving factor.

I agree 100% and why I asked those questions to begin with...

I'm confused by all the $$$ being spent when there is less (or equal at worst) material cost to build with that don't cost as much...but they may take a bit more learning to use...

Unfortunately lots of industrial materials like silicone are cheaper and easier to use than making/mixing/curing more natural materials like clay.

That kind of is confusing to me....Have you used clay before and had it cost more money or been more difficult to use?

Most of the clay I have used over the years was free and super easy to work with...even small kids in the Museum could build with it...

I would certainly love to create a vivarium with a lower ecological footprint, but the availability of such materials I feel like is small.

Some of the natural materials may, depending on location, cost money but the certainly wouldn't cost more than all the foam and silicone by a huge margin...

Clay out of the ground you can dig yourself is typically free, as stated before and most people can find a place to pick up rocks or wood litter from trees to use.

I do agree that this is some learning that has to take place but these are not, by any comparison "harder" to learn and work with than all the nasty chemicals, foams, and plastics now being used...

It is a choice rather than anything else...Which one do I want to work with...natural or industrial?

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

and that's where a natural substitute would have to prove itself superior.

Considering that "terrariums" and related "enclosures have been in practice since the early 1800s and over 2500 years ago in Greece perhaps further back in Asia (still a lot of historical research going on there!) this is not something that really needs to be "proven" but more (I guess)..." re-learned"...by those in the hobby...

So much has become "monkey see... monkey do" by only one DIYer following another DIYer without any great depth of research and knowledge we now have a hobby trying to "reinvent" itself without actually knowing its own history or possibilities...it would seem...

I don't think they'd feel like they could actually do anything to measurably make a difference...If we all switched to natural materials, would there really be any change in the trajectory of climate change?

That is the failure (or laziness???) of what some call the "raindrop" effect. People don't care or wish not to care because they don't "think" or feel they can have an impact yet forget that a single raindrop is nothing but a "rainstorm" and is often cataclysmic...That is true in many aspects of our daily lives...

you would need to provide proof that the current materials are definitely harming the reptiles who live with them.

Considering the "newness" of the hobby, by the time it happens (when...if...and where) by then it would most certainly be too late...

I do not think pollution will draw many people to inconvenience themselves more in what is already a fairly expensive and labor-intensive process.

Again the "laziness factor" which I have shared and you are very correct about. People, in general, go with what they "think" is the way of doing something and it tends to become normative within a culture be it primary or a subculture...

Absolutely. The majority of the conversation around building these is online. Any attempt to influence a change would have to be as well.

Thanks again for sharing that insight...

-2

hannah2sophie•3 yr. ago

This reads as if you have a very narrow definition of what is superior. Just the fact, that something was done 2500 years ago, does not make that method superior. It MAY make it more environmentally conscious, but that does not make it superior in general. As I have tried to show in my other comment, the action of building an enclosure doesn't exist in a vacuum. That makes the question what is superior very complex.

To be honest, your posts and comments read as if you are someone who is very sure that they know best, but at the same time has lost connection with the real world of the "normal" people. Calling someone lazy because they invest their energy and financial resources in a different way than you deem right is very arrogant.

Don't get me wrong, I also find some established behaviours in the pet community to be worrisome or contradictory (for example enclosure sizes or collecting animals)

If you truly want to reach people I would advise you to rethink your use of language. No one responds well to being insulted (monkey see monkey do).

u/wanderingJude makes very good points and I think the three options he presents are very good starter points if you want to consider how to motivate people to switch materials.

I you can truly provide easy accessible knowledge that shows simple methods (achievable by people who don't have much experience in crafts), that also don't break the bank, are environmental friendly and safe for the animal, I think people would be interested.

On that note: One of the advantages of industrial materials is that skills can be easily transferred between materials (drilling a hole is the same in most materials and silicon applies the same on different materials) and most materials work for vastly different requirements (plastic doesn't care about humidity, textile does). This isn't the case with natural materials. If you forgo industrial glue you will need to develope multiple skills (textile needs sewing, wood can be fixated mechanical or with special glue, stones need to be embedded in some type of clay or mortar), which makes construction vastly more complicated. And in terms of requirements I reckon you would need some kind of modular system of building components that can be combined to achieve the perfect environment for the species. That would cut down on the planning required and make it easier for people who aren't well versed in the properties of each material and their interactions.

beetgreeper•3 yr. ago

I’d definitely read that book.

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

Thanks!!!

[deleted]•3 yr. ago

[deleted]

Yeinstein20•3 yr. ago

Hi, very interesting questions. I will try to keep it short.

I am currently planning 2 bioactive enclosures for my snakes and thinking a lot about what materials to use. As these are my first real builds it is quite hard to find the "perfect" solution. Number one priority for me is safety for the snakes directly followed by durability and nice looks. Environmental impact is also an important factor but not the biggest priority as there are other areas where I can change much more. But of course if I have a choice between natural and artificial materials I will try to go for more natural. It is a bit difficult researching for suitable materials as there are so many different techniques to build an enclosure and most people only present the looks but you rarely get insights in how well it works. So if you have any suggestions I would be happy to hear about them. A book might just not be the best way to get information out there as there are much faster ways of providing information via videos or just a blog.

I would love to read/hear a discussion about the pros and cons of different materials from different perspectives, which I would find even more interesting than a presentation in some form of one person, maybe that would make a good YouTube series in like a podcast style.

jaycwhitecloudOP•3 yr. ago

Hey u/Yeinstein20...

Thanks for engaging positively in this discussion...!!!...about 50% of the group, thus far, has been great with helping in examining the questions and wanting to learn more, while the other half keeps downvoting like crazy...!!!???...Must have "hit a nerve" somehow...LOL!!!

I will go through and respond where I can to each of your points/questions...

I am currently planning 2 bioactive enclosures for my snakes and thinking a lot about what materials to use.

Snakes are what got me started in all this "way back" in the 70s...!!!...and I was a "bad boy" as I started with the "hot ones" but had great support and teachers...

I would love to support/help you where I can to get started...

As these are my first real builds it is quite hard to find the "perfect" solution.

I remember that feeling myself all these years later. It is part of the reason I dedicated part of my life to really trying to "learn" what they actually need and what they don't...

"Bioactive" as it is now called is a movement that really got it started In Germany and a few other Zoos trying to replicate biomes to stimulate breeding behavior in some animals...Frogs were a big focus, and then it spread from there...

Now, it has become both an "art form" and a pleasant way to present an animal species within a simulated biome of a given region. Some of these are fantastic...some...???...not so much...

"Saftey" is critical and should focus on...what the snakes actually need...and not on what we humans, "think they need," or how we "want them to live."

"Nice looks," will depend on your aesthetic, how much you can (or want to spend?), and the skill sets you are willing to develop as your interest in the hobby grows...

Environmental impact is also an important factor but not the biggest priority as there are other areas where I can change much more.

Thanks for sharing that and it is more than acceptable to prioritize your focus on "where" to lessen your "carbon footprint." I have zero issues with that.

In reality, the first "target market" I'm trying to address in the book (and possible product line) is exactly those goals...KIS..."Keep It Simple"...and aesthetically pleasing as possible without a lot of $$$ and still provide a good habitat for the animal in the enclosure...

But of course if I have a choice between natural and artificial materials I will try to go for more natural.

Snakes don't need much...just some basic environmental and behavioral challenges to address and they are very happy.

You know you are "doing good" when an animal won't...or... don't want to come out of its enclosure. Food and sex (like most things...lol) are the only two major stimulates for snakes that will get them to come out of a well-designed enclosure...

A lot of folks will use plastic containers for this...me included in some cases...but I started to transition to mostly glass later and then a combo of wood and glass just because I learn too much chemistry about "microplastics" and what they are doing to the general health of the planet.

More complicated enclosures of glass, ceramic, botanical polymers, artificial stone, etc are more of a challenge, but for me was worth it...

It is a bit difficult researching for suitable materials as there are so many different techniques to build an enclosure and most people only present the looks but you rarely get insights in how well it works.

100%...!!!

Part of the reason I started getting "dragged" back into the hobby by old friends and colleagues is the DIYers out there are basically "experimenting" with living animals (and their own health) with all kinds of "weird" ideas that most have no clue about...!!!...Kind of like..." monkey see... monkey do"...without really trying to learn more about the history or alternatives...or...even really learning how to design and build shit well...

So if you have any suggestions I would be happy to hear about them.

I probably have lots of them...some I won't be able to help with now as I'm working with a manufacturer to help me develop their product into a package that you would be able to purchase and use with guidance for making some of this...the other...I'm trying to get down into a book...

For now, though, share with me the species of snake you are trying to keep and I will gladly tell you how I would keep them...I will also share some of the basics of what may interest you in learning other skills to develop naturally built enclosures (or even houses for that matter.)

A book might just not be the best way to get information out there as there are much faster ways of providing information via videos or just a blog.

Thanks for that feedback...

I'm getting that a lot from folks here, but others want books too as not everyone has computers and screens that are a hobby...even in this day and age...LOL

I'm hoping to start a channel on this topic or find someone that will be in proximity to me...(Milwaukee, Wisconsin area)...as my "full-time" work (this is a hobby now for me and no longer a profession) is natural and traditional architectural design and facilitation...

I would love to read/hear a discussion about the pros and cons of different materials from different perspectives..,

Those details will literally..." fill a book"...LOL...and part of the reason I started this post thread is to see if folks would be interested (50% are and that is enough for me to spend more time and money on the effort.)

Thanks again for posting and due please share your snake species so I can give you some "basics" on how to get going, but you probably already know those. Feel free to ask any other specific questions you may have...