Source
r/allthingsprotoss•
FoolioABC

Sase's aggressive 2-gate expand: how to hold a 4-gate?

Hi guys, I started doing sase's aggressive 2-gate expand and really like it so far. my biggest problem with the build so far is holding a normal, decently executed 4-gate. even if i scout it i have a lot of trouble actually preventing the probe from dropping pylons outside my ramp. the guide to this build pretty much glosses over this, saying you will be able to prevent them from getting a pylon up near your base. i feel like this is the crux of defending a 4-gate, yet have been unable to do it with the units i have at the time when the 1 probe, 1 zealot, 1 stalker arrives at your base.

does anyone have replays of them beating a 4-gate with this build or any advice on how to hold? Thanks.

Posted Nov 15, 2012, 2:28 PM UTC

1025
FoolioABCOP•

Here's a replay http://drop.sc/275766. i play pretty shitty in this game, but you get the idea.

3
LewisKiniski•

This used to be my default PvP build too, because I really liked the 6:00 expo. I struggled with 4-gate defense as well. It seems as if their Zeal+Stalker+Probe combo always arrived at my lower ramp 10-15 seconds before my 2nd and 3rd stalkers pop. This makes it really difficult to deny the Probe, especially if they control their units well. I found that I could switch to Sentry after Stalkers 2&3, but often it was too late.

It was also really difficult to stop 4-gates with hidden pylons slightly farther away, because you don't encounter the Probe at all. It typically isn't with the initial Zeal+Stalker, and you can't really venture onto the map to hold a watchtower to see Probes going to random/suboptimal locations since 3-Stalker openings obliterate your 2-Zeal 1-Stalker squad.

If you like this build for the same reason I did, maybe you can try Grubby's 2-Gate Robo Expand. You can take that expo around the same time (if not sooner), have an early Sentry (which makes 4-gate defense trivial), and have Robo tech. The drawbacks of this build compared to SaSe's build are that you lose the ability to contain and you're inherently weaker to Stargate builds. The former isn't really a problem though, because you don't need to stall to get your Robo up.

I apologize for not posting a solution for this build - I was just in the same situation a couple weeks back and this is what I decided to do.

tl;dr: If you're only doing this build for the early expand, I'd recommend trying Grubby's 2-Gate Robo expand.

2
FoolioABCOP•

tbh, my favorite part about this build is that i get an expo while containing them so they don't get one. but maybe this is too greedy? i might have to fall back to this safer build.

1
LewisKiniski•

Denying an expo is nice, but you can't really do it without Sentries, and you can't do it indefinitely. You're also unlikely to kill them under any circumstances, and things like DT warp-ins behind you can really ruin your day. I really don't like having my army out of position like this. The thing I always found myself sacrificing in this build is safety: I'm investing in my economy and being really aggressive with that contain. That pairing doesn't lend itself to safety.

Most of the time, the build you're going to force to one base is 3-gate Robo. Most people who 3-gate robo and scout a 2-gate expo are going to 1-base anyway, since they're so far behind from the start. Additionally, when you force someone to one base they're probably going to do some sort of 1-base Colossus all-in, which you can't Probe through anyway, which sort of defeats the purpose of taking a fast, relatively safe expo. You basically can't hold this type of all-in, and have to hope you can win a base race. Basically, you force them to respond in a way that can be very bad for you.

The edges I gain by going 2-gate Robo are tech and economy, sacrificing units. This is in stark contrast to the SaSe 2-gate, where the edges gained are units and economy, sacrificing tech. I prefer the 2-gate Robo because keeping my army in a solid defensive position near my base mitigates the fact that I don't have a lot of units (a little bit). You can't really hide your tech disadvantage with the SaSe 2-gate.

In the end, a 3-gate Robo player is still behind me economically, and I'm better prepared to defend a Colossus all-in. I'm at best ahead and at worst even in tech with 2-gate Robo players, who can't kill me. I'm not in great shape against 1-base Stargate players, but I can definitely secure my natural and work towards defending mass Phoenix.

Granted, I'm still a shithead diamond player, but I just found the SaSe 2-gate to be too difficult to execute. I'd lose a lot to 4-gates, a little bit to DT rushes, and a lot to Colossus all-ins. This switch to 2-gate Robo has removed a lot of those stupid (stupid/insta)-loss situations while still granting me some economic advantage most of the time.

1
SwaziSC•

You will have more firepower at 5:45 than them and with your superior Stalker count they should never get a Pylon up at your ramp (or even close to your secondary ramp). Warp in 2 Sentries as soon as your Warpgates are done and then use Forcefields to defend your ramp whilst going up to 4 Gateways before expanding. Expand as soon as you can handle their army and then counter-attack. If they have tried to expand then your counter-attack will kill them, so the worst case scenario is that you will force them to make a lot of Sentries in order to defend their main base from your counter-attack.

This is what the liquipedia article says on how to defend a 4-gate, it seems like you should have 2 zealots and a stalker to their 1 stalker 1 zealot so you should be able to keep them away fom your main ramp with a little micro until the next two stalkers pop.

2
Gemini_19I <333 HerO & Trap | Mod•

But then the problem of the first warp in comes in. He's gonna have another pylon further back on the map somewhere and he'll still warp in 4 more stalkers before you can.

2
SwaziSC•

The article says you should be able to warp in 2 sentries witch will give you enough time to force field the ramp and warp in more sentries untill you can forcefield forever. As long as there is no pylon that can warp into your main (and even if there is with perfect force fields you're fine). I've never tried this build but I usually open phoenixes and am very used to holding 4 gates with almost pure sentry/zealot.

2
Gemini_19I <333 HerO & Trap | Mod•

Perhaps I should try this build out again sometime.

1
LewisKiniski•

You can't wait until your first warp-in cycle to FF your ramp. You're getting 2 Zeals and 5 Stalkers before warpgate is done, and we're talking about a 4-gate defense. This build's core is 1 supply behind a 4-gate core, and puts 2-3 fewer chronoboosts into warpgate.

He has to cut Stalkers 4&5 (at the bare minimum) and chrono out a Sentry. There's still an awkward time there where you have 2 Zeals, 3 Stalkers, and your opponent has 3 units, and 4 warping in. You can't prevent that from coming up your ramp until you have a Sentry, which is being chrono'd out really late.

1
SwaziSC•

Without every doing the build or seeing a replay yet it's hard to know the exact timings but it seems like you have more units out every step of the way. If you have 2 zealots and a stalker to his 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 1 probe so you shouldn't let him get a pylong anywhere near your main ramp. Then it seems you should have 5 stalker 2 zeal to his at most 1 zealot 5 stalker after his first warp in. Again you should be able to hold this off untill you can warp in a sentry and start holding this way. Maybe I'm not understanding the timings right and should go try the build before continuing to comment on it.

1
StereoMarx•

Once you scout it (chrono saved up, one gas) go for 2 sentries instead of your last stalkers and add 2 gates (and eventually a robo) instead of your nexus. Hide an expo if you can, then move out once you have enough. I'll look for a reply once i'm home.

1
FoolioABCOP•

if you could find a replay i would appreciate it!

2
StereoMarx•

I'm in the library right now, but I'll check if I have one. Otherwise, if you're on EU, I can show you in a couple of hours.

1
FoolioABCOP•

Unfortunately, on NA :(

2
StereoMarx•

Darn, I have a NA account, but I haven't downloaded it yet. I'll dig up the replay later tonight then.

1
Iridium1•

Make sure you get all the chrono's correct too. It's vital that you get your units out as early as possible, especially vs 4gate

1
FoolioABCOP•

my understanding is it's just 3 chronos on the nexus, and then dump 4 into stalkers 2-5 off of the two gates. is this correct?

1
Iridium1•

I'm not sure, i used to do this build but i don't anymore. Aren't you supposed to chrono your warpgate at some point, or am i missremembering?

1