This would solve a LOT of people's grief problems. It worked really well in PS1. Don't reinvent the wheel. This has been said before, by me and others.. but it still is not in game. It needs to be. Badly.
Posted Nov 16, 2012, 5:58 PM UTC
I would say Outfit members, should have 0 greif, Squad maybe not so much, as you could randomly join a squad, kill them all then DC and lol.
Yes, you run that risk on the margins, but you could do the same for outfits if you wanted to troll.
If someone is killing squaddies, kick him, he gets grief. People police relatively well, and I'd rather lean on players to police the system as much as possible rather than an automatic system.
Grief is a great system for handling people that you have no control over and no relationship with. Squaddies and outfit members you have at least a limited control over.
Xcept that if you will get kicked from outfit for that you most likely wont be taken back, but you can always just go and troll random open squad
Yah, well you could do that in PS1, and it didn't really happen that much. You can kill the griefer if you want too.
The great thing about Planetside is that people eventually earn a reputation. People quickly learn if you're a douche and treat you as such. Persistent worlds are awesome.
PS2Beta had more people play then PS1 ever. PS1 community is not a good comparison to PS2. Don't do squads. Do outfits. Outfits police their members and it encourages people to join Outfits.
But with free accounts it is easy to just make a new char for trollin.
Entirely siding with Distalled on this one. PS1 had no grief for Squaddies/Outfit members, and it worked great. Playing with open squads, and while PS1 had a bunch of free members on, the trolling was very limited, practically never happened, if it did, you kick the person, problem solved.
How about no grief from people you have in your squad that are on your friends list? Seems like that would solve random people joining squads and killing everyone.
Yeah, Friends shouldn't generate Grief, I forgot about that. I think that should be really the defining factor, anyone on your friends or in your outfit shouldn't generate grief.
I agree.
It's easy for a random idiot to join a random squad and TK people.
Much more difficult for a random idiot to join a random outfit and TK people.
I would be more than happy with no outfit FF. Squad FF should remain in some form due to griefers. If you're in a squad with your outfit than it won't matter.
I've never been weapon locked in this game. What are you guys doing?
I've rarely been locked, and in Planetside 1, I was never locked in 9 years. While it may not be breaking my gameplay experience personally.. I know good, tactical players who suffer from this after hours of play.
Mostly this is getting grief from driving an AMS and having people run in front of you, killing them. Similarly as a MBT or ESF pilot this happens frequently.
Also, since players can occupy the same physical space, tight groupings of players will occasionally strafe through each other, momentarily placing one player far enough in front of another to allow rounds to hit. Both players can do little about this. People simply don't have the peripheral vision to compensate.
Another problem is grief point degradation. During a 5-8 hour play session, grief points don't seem to deteriorate as fast as they are gained.
Again, I'm not talking about people making silly mistakes, or being overly ambitious with spam weapons, grenades, and MBTs. I'm not talking about idiots running in front of a firing line instead of behind. In groups, these previously stated problems become exponentially more common through no fault of the operator, and eventually lock people up.
This may not be a problem for some players, but grief never really effected good players in PS1, regardless of the size of operations they were involved in. In PS2, it's a problem for one cross section of players who play properly.
Grief should punish griefers and allow for accidental problems inherit in a game, it shouldn't punish people playing together in large groups.
But...I've played with coordinative outifts and all the like...yet I've never been weapon locked. Sure I have ran through people and killed a few team mates by accident when firing too close to them...but never have it been so bad that I've been w-locked. What are you doing when you get weapon locked most often?
Vehicles I can understand, they kill friendly players even if you as much as brush someone at a crawl speed. That should be changed a bit so that friendlies don't die so easily.
Maybe I am just a bit more careful around team mates, but I've even intentionally killed team mates if he was standing on an enemy and I had to react...yet no weapon lock. :S
If weapon lock is this much of a problem, maybe a "mercy" option to the person who got killed would be good? An option to relief the team killer from any penalty if you know it was a simple mistake and not griefing. I'd like that.
Like I said, I haven't been locked.. well I have once, but only once. Maybe you're not playing for 6-8 hours.. maybe you're not playing with 50 people in one spot, maybe you're just that careful.
Vehicles are greatly the source of the problem. AMSs, MBTs, etc.. but even if you ARE being careful you can still unintentionally hit friendly players despite both players using great tactics.
I too can kill a friendly player and still not get WL. The problem with that and the mercy system is that grief doesn't care if you kill or if you wound. Even yourself.
The mercy system won't mitigate this, and then the server has to track who you griefed and how much to return those points.
Simply not allowing grief for squads or outfits would greatly reduce grief to players who don't need an external system to manage other players. Grief should really be there to stop players you have no control over from exploiting FF, and to remind people to check their fire.
The problem with weapon locking in PS1 is that it was cumulative and only went down with real time. It didn't account for how much you played.
Back during my summer vacation from high school I got grief locked a few times even though I was careful simply because I played almost every day for a week or two.
For me the time I get weapon locked is when attempting to push out into the bio dome. I'll be attempting to clear targets from within the shield field but stupid people will just run through me as I'm shooting out and end up taking half a clip to the back before I can stop shooting.
Considering it takes considerable effort to push out of these camp-able rooms the chance of repeated shots to the back can be considerable.
Note I've only been weapon locked twice during beta.
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People love jumping on magriders, except sometimes they don't succeed so I'm to blame...
I feel your pain. My lightning is soaked in the blood of stupid LAs trying to perch on it.
Driving a sunderer with the zerg rushes. I've had people drive their flashes under my sunderer to kill themselves, 4 people run right up to the moving sunderer's side and get squashed within 30 seconds, you name it.
Or try being an engineer on your turret camping the enemy spawn as you wait for base capture. Everyone wants to get in on the action, and apparently running in front of your bullets is the best way to do that.
I worry that it'll be worse once we go live, too.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted, even in PS1 I've gotten grief locked from derpy zerglings playing chicken with my sunderer.
It's especially "wonderful" when I have my sunderer locked for my squad, so people jump in front expecting to enter before being squashed. And once you get locked out, you can get re-locked very quickly.
Very quickly is an understatement. You are literally 1 bullet away for hours.
I think you should get grief if your bullets hit a friendly for more than 2 seconds. This would help identify if it was 1 accidental bullet or actually trying to hit a friendly on purpose.
It's a decent idea, but what do you do about shotguns? C4? Grenades? The system as it is works fine, it just needs to allow players to self police in outfits and squads, where people can communicate properly instead of using a catch-all system.
There are also other uses for grief not including outfit members or squad members. Duels.
People can practice with each other, and outfits can scrimmage, or just have duels if they want. This was practiced in PS1, and was a fun way to play.
To be fair I think anyone who throws a grenade or detonates C4 near friendlies deserves to be warned and surely a shotgun is going to be quite difficult to hit team mates with seeing as it is a close range weapon?
I just want something implemented to prevent ME getting warned when a retard runs in front of my fire or turret. I always run behind my team mates when firing like anyone would in a war.
The system should work as it has in PS1, it warns you when you hit a dumb player running in front of you, but you shouldn't be worried about WL unless you're intentionally going around trolling.
FF is going to happen, you can't control other players, I just think as much as possible grief should only apply to those players, and not players that have the ability to punish players themselves.
How about if the grief counter, as it starts to cool down and approach zero, can go a bit negative? So if it goes from 0 to 1000 now, let it go to -10 or -20. That way some small amount of accidental damage can be done without bringing you to a positive grief score.
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I'm pretty sure I saw patch note that said they did it (at least from outfit), but judging by OP post something isn't working
I hope I missed it.. I didn't see it in patch notes.
It was definitely in the patch notes about 3+ weeks ago. It just wasn't implemented I guess or else it is currently broken.
definitely hasn't been in. Never saw it in patch notes, so thanks for doing the digging.
I've been weapons locked shooting outfit mates who were in my squad, so still grief, maybe reduced grief, I think I killed this guy 3 or 4 times, before getting locked.
Before you get the pitch forks, we were joking, and having duels.
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There's some other problem with grief right now. Don't know exactly what it is, but I was playing an Engineer who had a deployed Sunderer out at a biolab.
I'd routinely get grief warnings popping up on my screen, most often when I was dead. I was not using grenades or other explosives. I suspect it might have had something to do with the Sunderer itself.
But yes, I agree with the OP.
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Another point of the grief system is to stop AOE spam like tanks, rockets and grenades especially at chokepoints.
This change just allows squads/outfits (that covers a TON of people) to break the rules. Your supposed to change your habits from other games and not just blindly AOE everything/run over everyone.
PS1 vets know this and so do the devs, that's why the grief system is back in PS2. Devs please disregard any posts that call for elimination of grief.
So you would punish players who call a friendly rocket strike on their own position in order to destroy a large number of people around them?
If the choke points are a problem, then more than one squad is firing at the chokepoint and the AOE will still cause a weapon lock.
And, really, having the grief system in place will increase the precision of AOE spam while allowing your teammates to continue to do their thing. Friendly fire does not make your team stronger unless it is used intelligently.
I second this completely.
I don't agree it "badly" needs to be in the game. But I would appreciate this addition.
As someone who plays with a large outfit, and an outfit that plays well.. I hear "WEAPONS LOCK !@#$!@#$!@#$!@#$" wayyyyy too many times during a day. Especially from poor sundy drivers.
There are just too many ways to accidentally shoot friendlies while in large groups.
for solo play, I never get WL, and with small groups. It's not a skill thing, but more of a situation/mechanics thing.
Tank driving, i run into people all the time, because they don't look both ways before crossing the road or someone in a flash barely grazes me and BOOM explosion, dead. Flashes especially give a ton of grief because I think you get double grief for the rider and the vehicle.
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I just want it so we can practice dog fighting / target practice or whatever with guys. in the warp gate.
Just remember this type of thing can be used to farm exp, you can already do it with ammo packs.
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Instead of the current awful weapon lock, have it so after enough grief points have been accumulated, reverse friendly fire for the player so they damage themself instead of the person they hit. This shuts down griefers by removing their ability to team kill, incentivises not shooting teammates even more, but still doesn't force players out of the battle after a few accidents.
I've emphasized an important part. Can't think of any downsides. What do you guys think?
Great idea
I would want to have the penalty on constantly. I wouldn't have to worry about team killing anymore!
Most of my TKing occurs because I'm spraying a group of bad guys when a lone friendly with low health ends up taking one of my bullets. But I would gladly take that bullet for him since I can spare the health.
That wouldn't work out for a lot of reasons. I think my suggestion is pretty solid where it is.
Why wouldn't it work out? Did I miss something?
Trolls would grief by running around in other peoples fire to get them killed and would dive on grenades too.
Noobs would also stop caring about were they walk. "oh herpdy der I'll just derp in front of this guy shooting his mcg, nothing bad will happen to me."
I like it.
Though I did have a lot of problems on the crowded servers in a MAX.
There are so many people at the sites that the scattershot is guaranteed to hit a friendly. I got locked so many times just by focusing fire on an enemy, then blue's ran in front of me.
I like the sound of this. reversing damage.
It would have to be something like 4x amplification so griefer can't just take medic and heal whatever lashback damage he got
That really seems unnecessary. Griefers can't actually hurt teammates after this, only themselves, so piling on more damage isn't needed. The reverse friendly fire is to keep that incentive to not shoot friendlies while still removing their ability to hurt them. Remember that normal players that aren't intending to grief will get caught in this too, the punishment can't be excessive.
One thing i could see being abused is throwing a grenade into an area full of both friendlies and enemies, or using other explosive weapons like the liberator. You wouldnt hurt your friendlies but you could get a few kills at the expense of only one of your lives.
That certainly could happen and I'm not sure how to stop that. Hopefully that kind of thing wouldn't be common. Make self kills unrezable is a step in the right direction though.