Posted May 12, 2023, 4:03 PM UTC
It's pretty sad that Ferrari and presumably Merc will move towards the RB concept. One of the coolest things about last year was the variety in car designs we had across the grid and at the front, but it looks like that has all gone out the window.
TD39 really has ruined this era of machinery, as if everyone is going to pivot to a RB concept as it's the only viable design, it stands to reason they will remain light years ahead.
Honestly, this is what’s most frustrating about the 2023 season. The end goal for every team now is to copy red bull, leaving everyone a year behind in development. Seems like other solutions just straight up don’t work making it feel hopeless that we’ll see anything different in the next 2 years.
People hate me bringing it up, but even though the 2022-2023 regs saw a change in the floor and it backfired incredibly, the only way we’re going to see variety and by extension a different leader now is to change some of the rules. Something to incentivize a solution other than red bull’s floor and suspension combination, maybe bringing back inerters so floor stability is easier to achieve making more aggressive designs possible. Maybe scaling wheelbase length with minimum weight, or undoing the floor edge raise.
Either way, red bull staff obviously understand these rules far better than anyone else at the moment, meaning any change that happens may benefit them, but the goal would be to open the regs in a way that benefits their current car the least. Imo more complex suspension doesn’t really aid their car since it’s already so stable and low, while others could use variable damping to run their current designs
Convergence is par for the course
To this degree that we’re seeing?
It’s going to look exacerbated by the even tighter regulations, but yes. Pretty much every innovation that was deemed legal was copied up and down the grid.
Even if they want to “copy” Redbull, it’s not as simple as it sounds and unless they completely scrap their cars, they have to take what Redbull is doing and apply the logic to their own packages. It’s not like a couple of parts they can copy and swap out, redbulls entire package is optimised around everything they’ve done since 2022.
This is what Ferrari is doing, trying to extract elements of the RB19 that would sufficiently “plug in” to their existing package(s). Given that the floor is a huge portion of the RB19, that whole component is basically best guessing for other teams. They’ll still have to use their own heads and do a lot of the working to get to something that might resemble Redbull. Hell, they could find different designs that ultimately approach the same sort of conclusion.
That said, it seems like tunnel/sim/race parity has been somewhat disastrous for Mercedes and Ferrari
TD 39, weird Pirelli tires and shortened drs zones have given us shitty racing and "let's copy RB" era. Fia is always shooting themselves in the foot.
TD39 didn't do any such thing. No one ever failed the porpoising test and the flexing floor was never allowed in the first place. The TD just added an additional test to check for it
Out of 13 races before td39, Ferrari had pure pace to win 6 of them(excluding Silverstone. We know without max's car breaking down he was going to win it). Due to circumstances they won only 3. After td39 none. They had 0 chances of winning the race on pure pace. I don't think it's just coincidence.
Yes most likely due to the floor flexing which people erroneously thought Red Bull was the team doing. That was not some arbitrary change though. The FIA told every team before the season they wouldn’t allow any flexing in the floor region and would act the limit it if found. The TD simply added an additional 2 locations they tested flexing in. If that slowed Ferrari down, it’s because they were already breaking the rules not because of a new one. The only new rule added was a test for porpoising which Ferrari didn’t fail.
Here’s an article from last February about flexing floors being something they would stamp out: https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fia-wont-hesitate-to-act-on-f1-2022-flexi-floor-abuse/8248705/amp/
Wow, fia knew something was up even before the season started. I know why they want to clamp down on the flexing. But part of me thinks if the part passes all the required tests it should be allowed(if it is not fatally dangerous). At least make the rule change for next year. We got robbed of some excellent racing between max and Leclerc.
The rule change to raise the floor height is what killed the various designs imo
Which wasn’t in 2022 at all but there’s also no proof that’s true at all. Most engineers have suggested the teams have actually made the raised floor edges virtually irrelevant. Using a sheer force to in effect seal the edge anyway
Disclaimer: convogliatori can be translated to conveyor if you do it literally, but in the context of the tweet I thought he might be referring to the ducts and shapes used in the Ferrari to channel the air towards the rear - in a sense being a conveyor belt for the air towards the rear.
I can be completely wrong about this interpretation of course, and he might be referring to conveyors in the factory itself, as in the engineers have shifted direction for the philosophy of the car.
Either way sometimes it’s very difficult to find a proper translation for some of his tweets, but I do try my best :)
Thanks for the translation, it’s understandable, much appreciated
It seems ok to me as a translation. Convogliatori could be translates with funnelers I guess.
[deleted]
Technically speaking, the trip to Florida could not have been a pleasant outing for Ferrari. If for Baku the simulations had indicated Leclerc and Sainz as second force, the Miami track promised a very different picture, and so it was. However, the SF-23 fared worse than expected in terms of the tire usage window, falling short of expectations for long stages of the race. In other words, it failed to get as much out of the car as it could have. But it is hard to blame engineers and drivers, because this year's Ferrari is a puzzle.
In contrast to the debut in Bahrain, in Miami the narrow section of the chicane was the most profitable for Rossa. In Baku it had only happened in qualifying. This aspect shows that technicians decided to direct work toward a possibly soft set-up. Hoping to achieve high performance at medium-low speeds and using more load than the competition in the medium-high speed mixed section. But it didn't work. If Red Bull and Aston Martin could afford to successfully use the same aerodynamic setup in Baku, Ferrari could not. Leclerc, mistake aside, could have had a say for the front row while Sainz executed a decent first stint but these are ephemeral parameters.
New Ferrari uses tires badly
The new Ferrari uses the tires too much when they are new, and uses them badly when they lose their initial grip. The reason is simple, it keeps not getting the expected load from the aerodynamic platform. By taking away stiffness you get more from traction and on the curbs but end up exposed to harmful hopping in high-speed corners, which is later the reason for Leclerc's accident. The rear end suddenly becomes lighter, losing the suction cup effect dangerously, just enough to send the car's stability into crisis. Yet the SF-23 is an evolution of the old single-seater, but the F1-75 was a car that was good with all kinds of tires and on all kinds of tracks, bumpy or not. Although it did not have revolutionary mechanics it guaranteed aerodynamic stability by always providing a lot of load on the tires, although it paid in drag compared to the Red Bull. Today the stability is Aston Martin's.
The Aston gained 5-7 km/h in the straights.
It is clear, that for Ferrari-without heavy intervention in development-even second place may become a mirage against Lawrence Stroll's team. Who, it is said, is gaining more and more power, technical and political. The Canadian billionaire with further major technical insertions-after the arrival of Dan Fallows-is shaping the team, with the clear goal of getting to win the World Championship, and not in the long term. After some setbacks in Baku, engineers were convinced they had solved the problems on the new Drs device. The AMR23 was much more performant in the straights, which allowed Alonso to pass Sainz without too much difficulty and manage the podium place at will.
Ferrari's updated bottom is worth 1 tenth
The updated bottom should guarantee 1 tenth and is part of a significant 3-4 tenths package that will arrive in Spain. Returning to Ferrari's problems, the new floor has a different conveyor design to begin to reduce the out-wash effect, and has a slight forward shift of the diffuser ramp, then the throat underneath. It is just the first part of a larger package that will still need significant miles to be optimized. Right now in Maranello the upgrades planned for Barcelona, via Imola, are being produced, and the key word is consistency. The basic SF-23 remains complicated to tune. The front end is generating a lot of understeer since testing. A source confirms that "it's a reason why it's difficult to increase the rear load, which so far has put the balance in crisis in the front limited corners."
Ferrari can "copy" Red Bull solutions, but only in part
Ferrari can approach the Red Bull concept but there are insurmountable mechanical and chassis limitations. You cannot analyze what is underneath the car until you see it. Regarding what's on top, the SF-23 will change in appearance but without exaggerated visual upheaval. It will not be able to get an excavation under the belly entrances, like the RB19 or Aston Martin, simply because the chassis structure has very different encumbrances that prevent it. On the other hand, it is important to keep in mind that it is not by replicating the so-called Red Bull underframe that everything will be solved. What will change is the rear chute and some parts around the hood, the junction to the diffuser and the rear wing, delivering flows to the rear end differently, pushing them lower. What you want to try to achieve is more load at the rear by limiting drag through a more pronounced downwash effect. Regarding the rear suspension, the whole geometry should not change, but an upgrade will be introduced in the rear wheel attachment area. In terms of configurations, the scoop specification is a good mid-load rear wing, however, in some cases it has been too light, and in other cases it has brought excessive drag when compared to direct rivals, excluding Mercedes. Which suggests that there is work to be done in that area as well because, to achieve consistency in the race, the platform on which the SF-23 operates needs to be better calibrated when it comes to thrust - in kg of load - on the tires.
Imola will be another test
For so many reasons, Imola will be a very different test from Miami: there will be only one Drs zone that does not facilitate overtaking, changes of direction, inclines and big braking should relieve the Rossa. Nevertheless, to make time on the Santerno, the car must travel well on the kerbs and allow the drivers more aggression. The RB19 on paper is unapproachable; behind, Ferrari should be able to play its cards better: power, braking and a good aerodynamic coefficient with Drs closed to defend itself. Pirelli anticipates 2024 tire introduction Meanwhile, Pirelli Motorsport has announced that it has asked the Fia for permission to introduce a new dry tire specification from the next British GP,(July 7-9), under Article 10.8.3 of the Formula 1 World Championship Technical Regulations. The Fia has given the green light. The introduction of the new specification, which anticipates the use of materials planned for 2024, is necessary in view of the increased performance of the single-seaters - in terms of loads and speed - recorded in the first races of the season compared to the simulations that were provided by the teams to Pirelli last winter and in light of their likely evolution between now and the end of the championship.
Original article in Italian: https://www.corriere.it/sport/formula-1/23_maggio_12/ferrari-come-cambiera-imola-perche-non-puo-copiare-red-bull-aa9546f4-f0c2-11ed-a7ab-be01d764a27b.shtml?refresh_ce
How often do these specific claims like "3/10ths package" end up being accurate? I doubt very often
In this case as it’s Duchessa reporting on Ferrari, you can be confident he’s saying exactly what the team has told him.
Now if what the team expects from simulation data actually matches up with the real world is a whole different story, but the floor and different rear wings did match so they might’ve corrected the problems they had during winter.
Mercedes and Ferrari are both having correlation problems it seems like. Mercedes talks of their upgrades as been good in the simulation but is trash when put on track. Lately, Ferrari has been having the same issue. At least in race setups.
The ground effect rules and regs may be playing a part in that.
Exactly this. Thats why it seems odd to me that people describe an upgrade with a # value in gained time
[deleted]
Let me guess, next year is our year ?
No need to guess.
Yep
is a new floor being only worth a tenth normal?
Their suspension system is whats holding them back atm. The Merc and the Ferrari are both running (being forced to run?) higher ride height than they would like.
The Merc looks bad but its consistently bad and the drivers can adapt to the shittines of the car.
The Ferrari is just all over the place and is unpredictable. Leclerc said something along the lines of the mechanical platform not being stable.
A floor won't do much if its not being run close to the ground. They will tweak the existing floor to suit their cars limitations but it won't be worth much.
The rear suspension tweaks for Imola could be interesting. Lets be honest though, this is Ferrari we are talking about. They will most probably go backwards as the season progresses.
It wasn't a huge update. It was mostly an update to the floor inlets and the diffuser, rather than the floor body, floor edge and bib where a lot of performance can be found
Not but with new suspension and aerodynamic change is probably going to get better
Really hope they sort it out. The sport is better when Ferrari is fighting at the front.
I dunno 2021 was a pretty fucking awesome year.
The feeling when Ferrari wins is something else
[removed]
[deleted]
[deleted]
Obviously…
It was good. Until the end. The first half of 2022 for me was much better 😂
Don’t gives us hopes.
I think the copy RB suspension given FER poached a RB guy. Pull rods up from and push in rear, question now does the change also address stalling front and rear end for drs and breaking.
The News flair is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties.
Read the rules. Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
So, will the car lose performance? That’s how Ferrari upgrades usually work.
[removed]
Why do I have the feeling it'll fail spectacularly and the car will get even slower?
It seems that both, Mercedes and Ferrari, will slowly transition from their current concepts/ philosophies and move towards something in the realms of Red Bull design
With the Budget Cap is simply impossible to turn up with a brand new “B-Spec” car.
Even without it would be extremely difficult. We've seen the RB being close to perfect in terms or airflow from the floor and aero parts on through the suspension aswell as pushing air towards the DRS. Thats going to take an immense amount of fine tuning on track and in the wind tunnel to even get close, especially coming from a completly different concept without being able to use features of similair teams as a "cheatsheet".
Without the Cost Cap, things would be radically different. You’re seriously underestimating how much money, time and resources Ferrari and Mercedes would be spending to catch up.
A very important thing to consider is that there’s three race winning concepts on the grid (Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull), it’s fundamental to understand this to then comprehend why everyone is looking at Red Bull’s solution.
If you spend a similar amount then all you can hope for is to find something the other teams haven’t discovered yet. It’s the prescriptive rules more than the budget cap making cars converge as quickly as they have, in a bad way. Just because you have $400m to spend in a year doesn’t mean the other team with $400m won’t find improvements, last set of regulations was open enough to facilitate massive concept shifts, this not so much. I feel that no one’s gonna reinvent the wheel for the next 2 years with these rules because other options seem so pointless: why would you go with a shorter wheelbase? Why would you go with a further cockpit position? Why do anything not already done by red bull?
It’s much more simple and doesn’t necessarily have to do with money in the way you put it — consistency.
That’s why everyone is looking towards the RB18 and RB19. Those two cars have been the most consistent, adaptable, polyvalent and reliable (from a setup perspective) cars. The Red Bull is able to do well in wet or dry conditions, high or low temperatures, high or low speed corners, etc. The Mercedes and the Ferrari cannot do that.
If you were to place all three concepts (Red Bull, Mercedes and Ferrari) under ideal conditions where everyone is exploiting their package as best as possible, there’s no guarantee that the Red Bull would be the fastest. That’s exactly the reason why Ferrari and Mercedes kept their own cars and tried to develop them, they saw potential to be the fastest.
The reason why Ferrari and Mercedes are converging towards Red Bull is because of the reasons mentioned above. Their cars [W14 and SF-23] are simply too inconsistent and suffer / benefit massive from certain conditions and changes, whereas the Red Bull just works well. Why would Ferrari and Mercedes keep spending money and development to fine-tune a car that’s too problematic to work with when the Red Bull is able to do everything well?
The Aston Martin is the living proof that following Red Bull’s path leads to you have a well-rounded package that works well under almost every circumstance. They went from being a mess in all aspects, to be the second best.
Convergence thanks to stable regulations is certainly normal, as you explain, the difference is it would take many years to see everyone choosing one route. Everyone choosing one route so quickly despite having two other race winning concepts speaks about other issues.
They would spend 100-150 million more then Redbull, their budget was 400-450 meanwhile Redbull was like 300 million
Prove it 😂😂😂
The British teams publish yearly financial documents, you can look it up very easily
300m isn’t accurate, but Mercedes and Ferrari were spending around 450m a piece with Redbull funding two teams with 500m
With / without budget cap, if you’re spending the same amount and the rules are fairly prescriptive all you can hope for is to be more efficient in the same philosophy after a while. If we wanna see different cars either someone needs to find a ground breaking solution or the rules should be relaxed in some areas to shift the meta from year to year
[deleted]
Not that. They changed the side pods and cooling configuration and made slight revisions to the floor last season. We call it a B spec because it looked different but it was fundamentally the same car.
Actually we don’t call it that for those reasons, we call it that because the engineers themselves said the car is more than 90% different than either of 2022’s attempts.
I can copy paste all this if you want. Slight changes to the side pods and floor tweaks is so grossly misrepresentative
In 2022 they had the B-Spec since November of 21, when the new hirings arrived, the current car is the result of having red bull ex head of aero and I think the ex head of Mercedes aero (and many people working with them)