Source
r/UnearthedArcana•
Phylea

Reddit is killing third-party applications (and itself). r/UnearthedArcana supports indefinite blackouts.

Official

Hello everyone,

After four days of the subreddit being Private as part of ongoing blackouts across Reddit, r/UnearthedArcana has re-opened.

If you don't know what's going on, here's a bit of an overview: Why The Blackout's Happening- From The Beginning.

We continue to support ongoing blackouts for this important issue, which affects not only users but also volunteer mod teams across Reddit, particularly for our related subreddits like r/DnD and r/dndnext. The r/UA mod team is still worried about the future of the tools we use to make moderating the subreddit manageable, such our u/unearthedarcana_bot, r/Toolbox, and more.

We know that no decision we make will please everyone, from the hundreds of join requests we received while the subreddit was Private, to the support we've heard through other channels.

One of the biggest reasons we've decided to reopen is because of growing concerns that Reddit is Threatening to Remove Moderators From Subreddits that Continue to Blackout. The mod team is passionate about this community. We want to see it continue to grow and flourish, and being removed and replaced by who knows who is a scary prospect.

Another reason is that we've received many messages from many users who reference content on the subreddit that they use regularly in their games, and we don't want to cause them hardship, particularly community groups that use some of the more accessible homebrew rulesets for specialized audiences.

We considered going Restricted, but that doesn't really accomplish any of the goals of the blackout (such as decreasing the number of ads Reddit serves), so we decided against that at this time. We'll continue to monitor the situation and may in the future change to Restricted or Private status again.

You are welcome to discuss all this in the comments, but please keep these discussions respectful. Rule 1 still applies.

Thank you, everyone, for your understanding.

Sincerely,

The r/UnearthedArcana mod team

Posted Jun 16, 2023, 4:59 AM UTC · edited

835167
Shadow_Of_Silver•

Even if the sub doesn't open back up completely, I don't want to lose all the stuff posted here, as it's been amazing. In addition to that, I'm not sure the blackouts are working.

Isn't there a mode thay allows for viewing but not posting? Can we do that?

174
PhyleaOPMOD•

Restricted mode only really inconveniences users. It doesn't hinder Reddit's ability to deliver ads, so we didn't find that option very effective.

71
Shadow_Of_Silver•

Fair enough. We just need the bigger subreddits to agree to indefinite blackouts, otherwise not mich will change.

21
rogue-monkey•

Nothing will change regardless, Reddit can remove mods and unprivate every sub at any time. The blackouts happen cause Reddit allows them to happen. I suspect the reason they've been allowed so far is cause the backlash from forcing subs open would be even worse than the current backlash but if it comes down to it and reddit doesn't want to backtrack then that is what will happen.

33
CaptainMoonman•

By waiting the two days for the original blackout plan, they give the average user the impression that things went as they were intended to and now things go back to normal, even if the reality is that the mods were replaced and discussion of the subject is banned.

7
thenightgaunt•

Sadly indefinite blackouts aren't likely to achieve anything here. Reddit leadership want to go publicly traded with an IPO and had originally planned to do that in 2021.

CEO Steve Huffman has basically responded with a hard "no". And it makes some unpleasant sense.

If they go public, the CEO and investors will want to have sole control over how users access the site so someone outside their company cannot mess with the service out of protest. That means no 3rd party apps like Apollo.

So they've got to balance that security/stock value side vs the issue of pissing off users and mods. And since the company stock is valued at something like $15 billion, the side they're going to pick shouldn't be a surprise.

Can anyone image any tech CEO these days, picking long term health of a product over making billions short term?

12
Sincost121•

I don't have much of a horse in this race, but I respect the mods wanting to do this.

3
Nihil_esque•

It would prevent posts from this sub reaching people's feeds. But something will populate them.

1
SeemsImmaculate•

Could someone create an archive on a different site perhaps? A huge undertaking, ofc but we can't allow this Library of Alexandria to burn.

1
Royal_Bitch_Pudding•

A migration of data should probably occur to something like Lemmy

4
Mechonyo•

Just put chache: in font of the post that is hidden.

3
Lives2DieAgain•

Having been unable to see previous posts the past couple days has been a bummer. Shame there isn't a way to reject being advertised on or a read-only mode so that we can still view posts.

42
rogue-monkey•

I agree this is a shitty situation for everyone but i feel the need to point out that the ability to reject ads would completely defeat the point of reddit existing. At the end of the day reddit is a for-profit company and their decisions will be driven by whatever they think will make them the most money. There really is nothing that can be done, reddit can unprivate every sub anytime they want, this is probably the perfect time for someone to swoop in with a Reddit clone

15
WithersChat•

Adblockers ^^

5
impishwolf•

We are here for you guys and each other. I just don’t wanna loose the history that is here. As someone who advocates internet archivism I’ve been super stressed. If we can help in any way I’m sure we all will be there.

41
Crayshack•

Same here. Even if they make the decision to close the sub to new posts, I'd want to still be able to access what has been posted in the past. I've got quite a few posts from this sub saved. On some of my old character sheets, I even have a link to posts for a subclass I'm using. Not for any of my active characters, but I want to be able to reference their material if they come up again and some of the stuff I have saved I haven't gotten around to using yet.

14
Decclo•

Might wanna look at r/datahoarder, or what's left of it. They work a lot in archiving stuff, including reddit.

Reminds me that I have to find and join their new meeting spot.

4
TibernusRex•

I have the utmost respect for anyone, user or mod, that decides on a principled basis that they can no longer support reddit and leave the platform.

That said, I strongly believe that this must be an individual decision. If a permanent blackout is instituted, then a handful of mods will have negated the entire community's freedom of choice.

Moreover, there is a plethora of content and discussion on this site that can be found nowhere else. While I'm sure there are others like myself who have built content catalogs in our own storage spaces, there would be no easy means of distributing that back to the community, and attribution for much of it would be next to impossible. The wholesale loss of r/UnearthedArcana would be a much greater blow to the D&D community (particularly that portion who is already opposed to acquiring additional 1st party content due to WotC's conduct) than it would be to Reddit, as an incredible amount of lovingly crafted 3rd party and independent material would be lost without hope for recovery.

The 48 hour blackout was inconvenient but ultimately a relatively reasonable tool to send a message to corporate. That said, I beg the moderators not to blackout the sub indefinitely. Leave it or restrict posting if you must, but please do not shutter the sub in its entirety and close up so much community effort and care in a vault inaccessible to those who spawned it.

41
Kayshin•

Sensible post. Especially in a sub like this. The blackout, even though I personally do not agree with, because it does absolutely nothing (not a discussion to have right now I guess), was ok to an extent. Restricting access and option to post homebrew stuff is not.

7
JenovaProphet•

Thank you for this well-thought-out response.

6
Why_am_ialive•

Agreed. This is effectively mods making a decision for everyone because it negatively effects them.

They have taken out ball and gone home.

Honestly a more effective tactic would be a mass resignation of mods across Reddit but they’ll never give up the ability to power trip.

5
Narzghal•

I agree with this. While I understand the reasonings that people are giving for wanting to blackout, I personally, and from what I've seen, a lot of others, don't care. We just want to be able to use Reddit and access the information that it provides. For every sub that decides to permanently close, eventually another one will be created to take its place. It unfortunately will just take a while to build up the content again, and be rude those so many people who created the content for the original sub.

IMHO, we tried, Reddit didn't back down, so now there's nothing else that can be done.

3
Kayshin•

This is a resource for tons of dms. Who in their right mind thought it was a good idea to remove access to stuff users made on here is beyond me. This is not the content of the mods. It is OUR content. Let us use OUR content.

29
Baelrog_•

Although I have sympathy for the mods, I tend to agree with this opinion. I believe taking everything offline is hurting the users the most, even though they have nothing to do with it. I'm fine with this strike to send a message, but I don't feel like repeating it is the way to go. It's a hard one though.

14
isitanywonderreally•

Complete lack of usable moderation tools (bots), all from third parties, is going to hurt users as much or more. Imagine your community moderators giving up and just letting whoever post whatever spam they want here. The crap to content ratio will be high.

That’s what failure to demand access to the API for moderation tools will do. Never lose sight of that specific, technical requirement when people start pretending this is just a social issue.

5
Baelrog_•

Fair enough. However, having no content accessibility for users is arguably worse than having poorly moderated but accessible content for users. I would rather have the mods allow people to access the forums, but as part of the strike lock the forum to prevent new posts (if possible).

5
Orn100•

That doesn’t block ad revenue and therefore doesn’t hurt Reddit.

-1†
Kayshin•

And this has nothing to do with the content that is already on here and freely available. And no, you do not need ANY tools to moderate. It might make your life a bit easier, but there is 0 need for it. I am an oldskooler. We used to run around on forums all the bloody time. We had admins and mods there actively keeping up, without any random tools and bots. That is active moderation, not having bots do shit for you. "HURR DURR WE DO NOT HAVE AUTOMATION AND HAVE TO ACTUALLY DO STUFF ON OUR SUB" is the complaint basically.

3
ejdj1011•

We used to run around on forums all the bloody time. We had admins and mods there actively keeping up, without any random tools and bots.

Question. Did any of those forums have 250k people, with only 7 moderators? Because those are the stats for this sub.

5
Kayshin•

Oh i totally have sympathy for the mods, that is something I might not have made clear, however this is not the way, especially in a sub like this. Other subs... Mabye. BIG MAYBE. A sub like this that thrives on user content? Never.

3
JesseDotEXE•

Completely agree, no need to blackout. Leave it open/restricted, use it less, and move to another platform if anyone wishes.

6
Kayshin•

If it goes restricted, either someone else, or I personally, will make a new one.

4
JesseDotEXE•

I think that is what we see with a lot of the subs. I'd say to the average user the API changes don't matter. This is unfortunately a losing battle and I agree the solution is not to burn it all to the ground.

9
robsomethin•

I think the fact that people (like myself) didn't even know there were 3rd party apps, and that the reddit corporate said they'd make exceptions for disability apps means the blackout worked.

Unless they go back in disability API, mods no longer have the moral high ground except that it threatens the app they like to use.

1
JenovaProphet•

Whether it goes restricted or private someone will create a new sub given enough time of the thing being inaccessible. So given that situation, plus the CEO clearly saying he's not backing down, and there being no unity between the larger subs, then this is a losing battle. Don't burn down the library to protest the bookstore. It won't accomplish anything except drive more people to the bookstore cause the free resource ain't there.

1
Orn100•

People who think about a bigger picture than a minor inconvenience today?

2†
flapflip3•

It is OUR content. Let us use OUR content.

Actually, it's not. Its owned by the creators. You've never even posted content in this subreddit.

The irony of you getting into slapfights throughout the comments, raging about people unilaterally making choices about "your" content, and even calling it "your" content is the first place is palpable.

-2†
Kayshin•

By OURS I mean the creators and the ones they have opened up their content for. That is not the mods.

4
flapflip3•

The creators opened their content up to anyone on this subreddit, which includes the mods.

Very weird to act like the mods aren't a part of this community or that they can't use its resources.

-1†
Kayshin•

I never said they can't use it, I said they have no right cutting it off.

3
KajaGraeMOD•

I waited, and thought about not commenting, until it got to here. I don't normally reply to opinion, but this one I'm going to. So with all due respect, take these facts to heart.

  1. Every active and past mod on this sub has contributed content to this sub, and you'd do well to remember that, given that I see not one content post from you. So I find it interesting that you keep commenting with replies about WE and OUR content when you have contributed nothing of the sort.
  2. We have 3 active mods for a community of over 250k users, so yes, we do need a helping hand from automation to help keep this community as good as it has been.
  3. Even if this sub went POOF in the blink of an eye, content posted on here does not just magically disappear. It's still available through the Homebrewery, GMBinder, Patreon, Imgur, GoogleDocs, and every other place it is being stored at. This is just a central repository to make it easier to find. So please don't make it out to be like us going dark for a few days was denying anyone access to their own content, when that couldn't be further from the truth. Especially given cached copies available.
-1†
Kayshin•

First off, I never said mods were not also possibly content providers. So thats a false accusement right there. Secondly, this content is mine as much as anyone elses, because it is published here to be an open resource. You are basically saying I cannot have an opinion on something because I do not personally put my content on here. What does that have to do with anything? I have been using this sub for YEARS. Why are you judging on that mere fact alone?

What terrible way to look at this. It shows the kind of attitude I mean towards locking content. You, the mods, are not the ones who create the content on here. You might contribute, and in that case you have a different hat on, for sure. One of a content creator, that should be just as upset about people locking the content away that they have freely and openly made available to the public. If you didn't want that, then you shouldn't have posted it.

The problem with this entire discussion is that a tiny group of people feel they have to do something that is "correct" in their opinion. For many other subs that argument could be made sure, but this one is specifically made for homebrew and for people to expose their content. They use it regularly. Some (like me) on a weekly or even daily basis. It inspires me to make my own stuff, and to think differently and more creatively about the games I run and play in. And with me many others.

4
JenovaProphet•

There are plenty of posts that have only images connected to Reddit and nothing else. Also there are plenty of The Homebrewery and GM Binder links which are often only available on Reddit posts, and can not be easily found elsewhere. It doesn't help that the number of times I've clicked on a Homebrewery or GM Binder profile only to find none of the creations are made publically available by searching through the user's profile is vast. So yeah the content may be out there, but without a way to find that content it might as well not be.

Also, mods shouldn't have the right to take down a sub that is active and in use, or contains large amounts of regularly accessed community content. Pretty sure even the rules of moderation say so based on what I read. If you don't want to mod under the current conditions I'd suggest passing on the baton as it's clear that the CEO is not going to back down and that the protests are not large-scale and unified enough to make a difference. I appreciate this situation is really stupid and based on greed, but capitalism is gonna capitalism. Especially companies desperate to become profitable.

2
therealregalis•

Probably true of most of the people complaining with this line of reasoning.

1
Kayshin•

I never called it mine. I called it OURS.

1
IlliterateJedi•

I appreciate this staying open. This forum is a wealth of neat conceptual ideas and it's been one of my favorites to peruse for years.

29
Ozymandias242•

As many may know, Reddit is seeking to go public soon: https://www.businessinsider.com/reddit-openai-chatgpt-ipo-valuation-karma-2023-6

Reddit leadership is seeking to maximize that payday, will undoubtedly jump ship with bags of money, and leave whatever mess behind for the the new company and stockholders to clean up.

Nothing else matters to them.

22
Polygonist•

From what I can tell, it seems to be an attempt to prevent other mega corporations from using its data for free. I don’t necessarily agree with how they’re going about it all, but the rationale behind it makes some modicum of sense, having read that article

11
notquite20characters•

3rd party apps aren't mega corps, and they seem to be the active target of reddit's disdain.

Also users and "rebel" mods.

5
Blood_Wonder•

the third party apps that are abusing reddit's data are big corporations or at least commercial enterprises. Reddit owns the data on this site and has the right to restrict or charge for its usage. The black outs have only upset users and reddit corporate is sitting on the side with their furniture made of money as the users and mods all argue.

2†
Polygonist•

When you’ve got an AI chatbot made from mostly reddit posts, I can see why Reddit might be more strict with its data usage. Other companies are literally data mining for free from the site without repercussion. It’s basically stolen content. Are all 3rd party apps mega corps? No. But the big ones are leeching off of benefits traditionally only enjoyed by little ones.

2†
notquite20characters•

Are all 3rd party apps mega corps? No.

Are any? Which app came from a mega corp?

3
The_God_King•

I was reading elsewhere that there is a contingent of users from wall street bets that is determined to tank reddits ipo and are citing the game stop stuff as proof that they can do it. I personally they completely lucked into that whole mess, but I applaud the effort.

8
Ozymandias242•

I don't think that has much of chance as Reddit is sitting on a trove of data that is some of the most desired for AI training: https://www.reuters.com/breakingviews/data-hungry-ai-models-could-help-reddit-valuation-2023-04-21/

From what I've seen, Reddit would make a fortune on that data alone, much more than with advertising. The Reddit forums could probably drop off the face of the earth, and Reddit would make a killing in it's IPO anyway.

3
Dark_Aster566•

good luck getting people to throw ACTUAL MONEY into screwing over one social media site as opposed to the gamestop stuff which was driven by outside forces lmao

2
Atrox_Primus•

The pathfinder subreddit is going private on Tuesdays because that’s the biggest advertising dollars day for Reddit. Perhaps you could go in that direction.

22
AidanBeeJar•

I actually really like this idea. Make it easier to manage, while allowing the community to exist, and still cutting into reddits profits

12
TheKeepersDM•

Not really cutting into Reddit's profits if everyone who wants to use Reddit is just funneled to other subreddits that aren't closed on Tuesdays.

3
flamel93•

If enough places do it though, it WILL be effective tho. I know I'm not the only reddit user who only visits a few subreddits for what THEY have - there may be other homebrew subreddits, but this one has the fewest reposts in my experience, and a good mix of complexities, & goofy vs serious edgelord tone!

I also only follow 2 different memes subreddits here, which I stick with because they have good enough mods and/or bots to keep the scummy racist/fascist posts out of; not just any meme sub can replace that. Not all subreddits with the same general theme are interchangable, and if the really popular ones go dark, people won't go to any other subreddit, they'll just find something else to do on Tuesdays when they know it's down.

I already avoid going shopping on Sundays because I know many places will be closed in my conservative town, finding someother website on Tuesdays won't be much harder!

3
SteakedDeck•

Well everything that could be done is done. There isn’t exactly much to do in a system and situation like this.

18
Magiwarriorx•

Would the UA mod team potentially look into alternate platforms?

17
HogtieHeidi•

Also wondering this. This is my favorite subreddit and honestly if the blackout continued indefinitely, this would be the only one i'd be upset about loosing. If the moderators of unearthed arcana wanted to jump ship to another platform, I'd follow.

7
JenovaProphet•

If they do that then leave this sub up, even if a restricted mode, simply so we can begin to archive the best content from people who no longer post or are living and make sure it lives in another platform. I'd be willing to help do this as I already have thousands of homebrews from here downloaded and organized, and thousands more in my favorites.

5
HogtieHeidi•

I'd be willing to help with this project too in my spare time if it's something the moderators wanted to do. 👍

2
JenovaProphet•

I vote for restricted mode, and only if all the DnD communities unite otherwise other communities will simply flourish while this piece of history dies, simply for the fact that there are a lot of people who don't post anymore and who don't even live anymore whose content is being hosted on here, sometimes exclusively. To lose that would be a bigger disservice to the Dungeons and Dragons community than to the bottom line of Reddit. Especially considering this isn't even one of the bigger communities in comparison, and the whole protests have been pretty disorganized and ineffective. Unless there's a total blackout between a lot of subs of importance, which at this point there isn't, I don't see this winning the war and just hurting internet history/DnD Homebrew community.

11
TrueGuardian15•

That's the key to the backlash. Nobody quit reddit for 2 days, they just locked down the subs. So people still used the app they were protesting, except now not even people out of the loop could use reddit because all the pre-existent tools reddit possessed became inaccessible. All 2 days of black out did was lower morale and piss people off.

11
JenovaProphet•

Yep, and all an indefinite one would do is destroy history and force new communities to pop up. Or as others have mentioned they'll just reopen the subs and kick out the mods, and so we will just have had lost access temporarily for no reason. Either one is pointless, and one actually involves the digital equivalent of book burning. Neither are good options, so really the only thing I can see doing is:
a. Just sticking with what we have and toughing it out
b. Putting this sub into restricted mode and start archiving the data to other platforms

2
KingKurto_•

blackouts only hurt the users. never do it again.

11†
DMKhalsifax•

But being a social justice warrior AND a mod gives DOPAMINE!

4†
SarKrieger•

Not to be that guy but... It's not working, why punish people who want to participate in the community?

11
Kayshin•

Becasue the mods needed to feel like they had power on this website that can easily replace them. They are scared for their bubbles to burst and other people to take over, possibly making the place better then before. Modding is a first come first serve thing, which is absurd in its own right. The nice group of 20 people that mod 150+ subs (which is fucking impossible to do) are now worried that they cannot control the narrative anymore.

All of this was a mod power trip.

5†
SuperVaderMinion•

Because reddit mods want to have control of their own little bubbles?

3†
SarKrieger•

Power trips gonna power trip I guess.

3†
Arthur_Author•

OGL Drama 2.0, lets go.

11
Shinra8191•

For real, people like us can't seem to catch a break. All thanks to corporate greed.👍

1
Evolioz•

I'm all for indefinite blackouts. We didn't get WotC to back off from changing the OGL by not putting up a fight, and it's the same thing with Reddit: if you want them to listen, you have to hit their bottom line.

Besides, with Reddit now threatening to forcefully keep some subreddits open, it does sounds like the blackout was way more effective than they want us to believe, and in my opinion, we should keep protesting until they completely back out from touching the API.

10†
Dark_Aster566•

We got WOTC to back off by a majority boycotting their products. A majority isn’t boycotting their products, nor is there even a boycott in the form of just not using the dang site.

15
CamunonZ•

^^^^^^^^^^^^

1†
Zellorea•

I'm really happy for the subreddit to be back open (As you said, I constantly reference material posted in this subreddit) But I also support the blackout so it's definitely a difficult position to be stuck in.

This subreddit is possibly the biggest repertoire of high quality homebrew on the internet, so losing access to it for that time.

10
RyoHazuki23•

I'm all in favour of an indefinite blackout, but I totally understand its infeasibility for community health.

I hope the mod team consider trying Touch Grass Tuesday to continue protesting sustainably. r/Pathfinder2e is looking to use it, and the rationale they explained for it seems sound.

9
ryanjovian•

49 million users gotta suffer for the temper tantrum of 1 million others. I think the best part is you guys continuing to act like it’s a cause that is worth fighting for and not the tyranny of the minority. Grow up.

7†
robsomethin•

Especially considering the only possible moral high ground was won. As long as reddit keeps their word (hard to trust a corpo but you have to wait and see), disability apps for the blind, hard of seeing, hard of hearing, what have you, are going to be fine.

3
CamunonZ•

I know it sucks, but please keep it open.

A worse site is still better than no site at all, SPECIALLY so for a massive archive of content like this one, which is used and referenced daily by millions across the globe.

7
CamunonZ•

Lmao downvote me all you want, it's the fucking truth and y'all know it.

-1
nivthefox•

The biggest reason why the API changes are bad is that they would have hindered users with disabilities. However, Reddit has promised to work with the developers of accessibility apps and ensure that they can use the API for free.

To me, everything else about Reddit's API change seems reasonable, after that. They are a business, and running a site like this does take money. They have three options: ADs, which we know don't work because everyoner uns an ad-blocker; Donations, which even Wikipedia struggles to make work well enough; or Monetize non-core features.

Monetizing the API for non-accessibility usecases isn't fun for any of us, but at this point I feel like we've gotten the victory we should have wanted: accessibility is free.

And now that I've written this I'm sure I'll be downvoted to oblivion. o7

Let the hatred flow.

7
Voidhunter797•

Ah yes because Reddit asking for more money than could ever be paid by these companies is doing so to keep the sites lights on. Also if you think Reddit will actually invest in fulfilling those promises I’m sorry to tell you but the likelihood of that is slim to none.

Reddit is just locking down the site free access so they can pump it’s worth to outside parties so they can sell the company for even more of a bag and than dip. They don’t care about the health of Reddit because if they did they wouldn’t need to change the api access in the first place. They are just making promises they won’t care to fulfill to pacify people for a bit.

1