I noticed how in LOTR Sam calls Frodo Mr.Frodo, out of respect. But I think this might be a common thing since the hobbit families are so wide that referring to someone as Mr/Mrs (last name) would be very confusing. Is this correct? (I don't know a lot about hobbits).
Posted Jul 12, 2023, 6:52 PM UTC
It's not a common thing among Hobbits. Sam is Frodo's employee. He is Frodo's gardener, just as his father was Bilbo's gardener. Sam's family is working class; Frodo, Merry, and Pippin are Hobbit aristocracy whose families are rich enough that they don't have to work.
Sam calls them Mr. as a sign of respect.
Well I wonder if it still applies to the rich families though, because normally the rich ones are the ones that are normally very extensive if I'm not mistaken. Thanks for commenting!
rich enough that they don't have to work
I don't know that this is the case. It certainly seems clear that the Brandybucks worked.
I mean, they can still work even if they don't have to.
Farmer Maggot calls Pippin “Mr. Peregrine” also.
Yes, And so does Sam. And Sam, Farmer Cotton, and Hob Hayward. So did the people of the Shire generally: "their admiration and respect were given mostly to Mr. Meriadoc and Mr. Peregrin and (if Sam had known it) to himself." It's a class thing. Sam calls Pippin by his first name at Cormallen and then corrects himself: "‘Why, look Mr. Frodo! Look here! Well, if it isn’t Pippin. Mr. Peregrin Took I should say, and Mr. Merry!"
I don't know if this reflects actual practice in the England of Tolkien's youth, with respect to what the common people called the sons of the gentry. But a similar custom used to prevail in the American South. When President Carter was a peanut farmer, all his workers would have addressed him as "Mister Jimmy." His mother was famously "Miz Lillian" to everyone.
The point is that they couldn't call Pippin "Mr. Took," because that's the Old Took. And he's not a kid in their own family, so they won't call him Peregrine or Pippin. But they know him well enough to call him "Mr. Peregrine" instead of "Mr. Peregrine Took" all day.
It's not necessarily a class thing, because it was seen as rude for even neighbors of the same, higher social class to address people by their first name, except under conditions of long friendship and great intimacy. Moving to a first name basis really meant something, for a lot of people in England back then.
Even among lower class English people, there were a lot of neighbors of the same social status who were always Mr. This and Mrs. That, because the personal closeness just wasn't there. Heck, it's still a thing in a fair number of places in America, although it's fairly easy to move to first names.
He could call Pippin "Mr. Took" if he wanted. Old Took refers to a single Hobbit that died long before the events of the books (the "old" refers to his age, not social position). The head of the Took family is called "The Thain", which Pippin later became, and the head of the Brandybucks is called the Master of Buckland, which Merry eventually became. Merry and Pippin aren't *just* members of the aristocracy, but they're both heirs to the very top end of it.
Frodo, for his part, isn't *himself* as high up, though he is a member, but he's well-connected through various bloodlines (he's pretty closely related to both Merry and Pippin, for example) to the point that not many people are in a position to get in his way, as we saw during the Scouring of the Shire when he forced the Sheriffs to escort him to Bag End to confront (he thought) his cousin.
I'm just here to say that it's "Peregrin". Peregrine is like, the falcon or something.
That's just a matter of spelling --it's the same word. So is "pilgrim." Any way you spell it, it means "wanderer."
I don't know, pillgrim might be what you become when you have a bad reaction to your medicine.
Argh, autocorrect!
The guy who owns the house is "Mr. Baggins." His son (while a minor) is "Master Baggins" or "Master Given-name;" and then after growing up, he is probably "Mr. Given-name" for as long as his father is alive. In this case we have Frodo as an adopted heir instead of a blood or adopted son, but the situation is similar.
Mr. Baggins' eldest daughter is "Miss Baggins," and his younger daughters are all "Miss Given-name." People who know Miss Baggins well, such as from childhood, will probably refer to her as "Miss Given-name" also.
So Sam grew up hearing his dad call Frodo "Master Frodo." When Sam grew up and started working for the Bagginses, he worked for Mr. Baggins (ie, Bilbo) and for Mr. Frodo.
Mr. Baggins' eldest daughter (if he has one) is "Miss Baggins," and his younger daughters are all "Miss Given-name."
Pride and Prejudice fans will remember "Miss Bennett" (Jane) and "Miss Elizabeth Bennett."
Confirming this formulation, here's Farmer Maggot "The farmer looked at him closely. ‘Well, if it isn’t Master Pippin – Mr. Peregrin Took, I should say!’" Signifying that he called him Master Pippin when he was a kid, but seeing him (almost) grown up, he changes.
I'm sure it's a class thing. Bilbo and his heir Frodo were landed gentry, and Sam worked on their land. Sam practically became Frodo's servant when they set out from the Shire.
There is a good amount of class distinction evident in LotR, especially between the hobbits, that gets smoothed over.
Merry and Pippin are the sons of the most important aristocrats: the Master of Buckland and the Thain.
Frodo is related to both families, but he’s more bourgeois (remember that Bilbo suddenly and unexpectedly came into a lot of money, he wasn’t always that rich).
Sam and his father are servants (and tenants, probably) of Bilbo.
Definite Edwardian vibes, big Downton Abbey situation.