liquid vs mouz defense 3 game 3
I forgot to tag the title spoiler, so dont read further if you havent seen it yet.
VOD(courtesy of smog_alado): http://www.twitch.tv/tobiwandota/b/371333569?t=2h15m14s
Posted Feb 26, 2013, 1:04 AM UTC · edited
793500
For those people that missed it live (and don't watch rebroadcasts):
YouTube VOD Is Processing up soon
321
You're the man Tobi!
34
Ty was watched game but gona watch again :)
2
I feel sad for this cocaster
1
[deleted]
1
For those who dont want to watch the pick phase:
1
I watched this whole cast by someone named feeder noob when I could have been watching Tobi? Shit, it was a good game, but bad casting really ruins the excitement...
0
208
Classic Mike.
146
ez game ez life
58
#EGEL
15
#EGEL
13
Haha Mike is always a class act.
53
It's dat fuckin stache. And that grin. I just can't be mad at him.
1
Bulba's Dad @BulbasDad
@LiquidBuLba Don't forget to thank @LiquidKorok for the carry.
36
That's cool, I didn't know bulba's dad followed dota lol
0
Its not really his dad. Someone made that account for the lulz.
9
I honestly feel the responses you've listed should be in reverse order. Best responses for last. EDIT: To avoid confusion, OP's list has since been reverse ordered.
15
[deleted]
1
Well, referring to Korok's tweet, EG tends to throw harder than mouz, so that should be a stomp.
15
Haha wow how quickly Dota 2 changes. Had I read that last year I'd be laughing.
14
But you're laughing now!
2
What happened last year?
1
EG was doing well and Mouz was only popular for the Sing and Bamboe antics.
3
mouz doto was well known for its throws, while EG dota hadn't yet attained its reputation for throwing.
2
I read that list bottom to top. Seeing ixmike88 say "easy game" at the end was hilarious
14
walking out of the t3 so late, that uphill ward seeing so much, bulba blinking in and hexing the panda, black going 1v3. Oh god i cant take this.
3
I need EG.Weedman's response
3
Fluff's response and Bulba's response -- both possibly about something else?
1
mike is boss
1
[deleted]
1
don't forget https://twitter.com/shitixmikesays
-1
ixmike is L I T E R A L L Y a based god
-1
Rapier gyro cures cancer :D
173
Gyrotherapy reporting
75
As sick as I am of seeing Gyro every game, if that's what it takes then I'm all for the lesser evil.
26
I am not a huge fan of gyro but the fact that he is the best rapier carrier in the game always leaves room for the interesting.
14
I'd argue at least a tie with medusa. After all, it is listed on her core.
And who can forget skeleton king? ^balling ^^out ^^^of ^^^^controll
35
You can hit 5 target with medusa while you hit everything in a 1000 aoe with gyro, i still feel gyro is a better rapiere carrier (i know, flak canon doesn't have a 100% uptime, but the enormous range makes up for it especially in siege situations.)
13
Too bad he's useless for competitive play.
1
If Medusa gets a rapier the other team is doing something wrong.
1
At least a tie with Medusa? Are you serious? Medusa is like a retarded cousin of Gyro.
Gyro is useful & powerful ganker/utility all game thanks to all of his spells. And Flak is 1000 range, hits EVERYONE, no damage reduction, and spammable. Medusa is a bumbling fool with bit of extra HP.
-1
this game was a testament to how hard gyro can carry
1
Sweet jesus lawl... enjoy your avalanche of upvotes.
1
HOLY SHIT WTF I WAS SO EMO AND THEN I DON'T KNOW
166
I'M IN A GLASS CAGE OF EMOTIONS
76
GET OFF THAT ROOF SON, NIGGA JUST GOT RESUSCITATED.
6
[deleted]
1
And that ladies and gents, is DOTA2.
Never surrender, never despair.
109
People who bitch about forfeit in doto should watch matches like this man..
27†
except liquid forfeited game two. you can say whatever you want about people like me, but you can't say this without at least acknowledging the facts.
43
Difference is they knew they had a another game to play, whereas in pubs if you're down 2 towers and it's something like 12-5 you have kids that are all 'gg sitting fountain' So yeah, not sure if I would want a forfeit in DotA 2
17
But what about when you're in a game and it's like 60-10 and the enemy team has like 10 levels on your team. All I want is a surrender option even if it requires 5 votes to pass. There are some games that are just impossible to win.
32
i have other games to play too (or more better things to do with my time in general). i don't opt for surrender just because i'm down 2 towers or something ridiculous like that, but i'd like to think i have (just as much as you have) enough experience to realize: when i'm being snowballed on, when i have a team that doesn't feel like putting the amount of effort it takes to take back the game, when i am making really bad plays and i see no back up plans from the rest of my team, or when i have the displeasure of having a cancer on my team that belittles either me, my teammates, the opponents, or himself, to the point of bringing down everyone else's attitudes.
there are some games that should be forfeited, it's a huge time saver for everyone and it benefits a lot of people over the one person who, right or wrong, is still outvoted by a majority who just do not feel like giving any more time to a game they deem as pointless. rarely in my experience of league of legends, which has a surrender option, have i felt bad about my team surrendering a game i believed we could have won, and when i had, it was a 1/100th game, which is hardly a reason to keep this system and dogmatic thinking that option to forfeit is somehow detrimental to the mindset of a dota player.
3
I don't know about you but I often play more than one game in a row.
2
Yes, I can definitely see the parallels between a late game comeback by a very farmed rapier Gyro and a decently farmed team against a 6-slots PL (with, behind him, a team with much less farm, I may add) after a game that was quite even, and the average 15-2 @ 20 minutes pub stomp.
The lesson totally applies.
17
[deleted]
1
To learn how to throw? Jeez.
-2
Never fear, divine rapier.
14
Lose rapier, now is ok to fear.
51
There's a game (not pro), that goes on for 160 minutes. There are 5 rapiers at the end of game, including a few that are just on the ground and completely forgotten. It's completely ridiculous. Luminous did a cast of it, just google 160 minute dota 2 and you'll find it.
1
I had the wonder of having my first pro Dota game I ever watched be Orange vs EHome at TI2. This definitely brought a similar tension for me.
11
For anyone that likes comebacks, I present to you the mother of all comebacks. LGD vs MUFC- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5g5roUluP4
7
what in gods name did I just watch?
4
"The Captain of NTH, EternalEnvy."
1
Games aren't as fun to watch when you know that it's a comeback game.
More enjoyable when you don't know if it will be a comeback game, like watching live on steam, or VODs w/o knowledge of game.
1
Disgusting throw by Mouz. Those buybacks were so fucking stupid.
Really well done by Liquid, shows the chinese mentality with "The game is not over before the ancient is down.". Liquid is getting scary good, jesus christ.
100
Yep, as much as teams can polish and work on their early game, laning and things like early rosh fights, practicing vs a rapier all in gyro at 55 mins is something that is much less seen and practiced against which is why I love the late game scenarios as pretty mcuh anything can happen.
14
PL with 7k gold and aegis with 2 raxes up. Also not to mention they had 2 raxes up prior and lost the teamfight which gave gyro enough for a rapier.
I don't know, his nerves got to him, could work on that.
3
I don't think PL is Black's best carry. As always his farm is really solid, but I think his item choices and micro mechanics held him back as a PL. Give him AM or FV and he'll play much better.
1
Not to mention the impatience on the top lane. PL should have had boots earlier, and used kotl's recall more strategically.
1
[deleted]
-24
Opening this thread and not expecting spoilers is madness
50
MADNESS!?
This is exactly right.
1
most match discussions are spoilers tbh. the OP should edit that in though
5
If someone goes into a thread like this and complains about getting spoiled they're morons.
1
Nope, you just should not come in this kind of topic if you didn't watch it live it should be OBVIOUS.
1
Any thread about a specific game is fairly obviously going to contain a lot of spoilers.
1
Title kinda gives away what's up inside.
0
NO HEX AGAINST A NO-BKB GYRO = HUGE THROW
94
An excellent example of sheep being better than most late game "luxury" items.
30
Like aggies on visage....
47
Like H4nni said, Aghanims on Visage is more like a Midas for Gyro.
5
I didn't notice but when did Visage start building towards aghs? I just dont understand that item choice, but I wasn't sure if he started building it fairly early (since it might take a while for him to finish).
1
Usually a really good item on visage, but familiars are such shit against gyro after 20 minutes it was a waste of 4k.
1
They started throwing way before that.
1
Not to mention not building BoTs on PL and just split pushing for the win.
1
[deleted]
1
This is laughable. Mouz must revise this replay and improve their skill, holy shit.
I really liked how Hanni analysed the whole game and predicted what would happen, spot on commentary. Mouz can learn very very much from his advises during their matches.
86
Here's what I think, Hanni was totally right about this. The game was a surefire win for mouz if they would've just chilled a little and took their time for decisions, since Liquid was nowhere near doing anything in reaction to 2 lanes being pushed out by themselves.
Instead of waiting for rosh with cheese and a surefire win, they wanted to force the Top baracks. First time, they didn't have the overview to at least kill the right rax. Second time after the rash and dumb buybacks, it was just a huge feed. They should've known that Gyro was on Rapier, they should've known that the fight can go badly. But nope, they still went on top and got outplayed hard.
In the end, I facepalmed more than hoorayed for Liquid. Sure, the comeback was amazing but on paper, it should've never happen. Hanni predicted every possible scenarios like a boss and if Kuroky even remotely thought like Hanni, he would've managed to beat Liquid's streak. I just think that a top-tier pro team shouldn't have done these misplays in succession. I'm just really sad for the Germans.
73
On paper there should never be any comebacks.
36
Thats not true. Variance means that you can have the possibility of comebacks, but what michima is saying is that this game had moved beyond he point where just variance could have swung it for liquid.
28
Variance is the boring comebacks though. The awesome comebacks always need a little "help" from both sides to happen.
4
There's a difference between coming back through outplaying your opponents and them outplaying themselves.
9
There is no difference between the two. In order to outplay someone, they have to play worse than you.
1
Wrong this game is filled with comeback mechanics.
Defender advantage/buyback advantage is a huge reason.
1
wat
-2
He's saying that "on paper" usually means perfect play from both sides and comebacks are usually only possible through someone making a mistake hence "On paper there should never be any comebacks".
6
Totally agree, just wanna add some things.
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KuroKy hit 3x the tombstone before going down, could've ended top barracks (at least)
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Black going deadalus w/o mkb(yo?!), and no bot (he had SHITTON OF USELESS GOLD)
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no hex
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no splitpush
It was mouz' game to lose, and they lost. WP Liquid to do what they did tho.
8
Black going deadalus w/o mkb(yo?!)
Actually a smart decision, as the crit gives roughly EQUAL dps to MKB's true strike against a target with 30% evasion. So many bad players don't care to do the maths on this though, so they end up buying MKB when they really should not.
He did need BOT, but it wasn't such a big deal since he lacked a buyback anyways.
no hex
This one is more crucial.
1
He didn't need the dps because nobody could've outdpsed him. Moreover, he didn't need the 1k crit when 3 illusions took down almost anyone. He needed to focus gyro and nothing else. If there was a... I don't know, a fed magina with magnus' buff, I would agree. Not in this case, though. (On a side note, rng, man...)
He needed BoT so he could've splitpushed. I don't see the point staying top all 5 heroes when he could've just rushed bot and get tped back by kotl. Either they get all 4 heroes top and he is left alone to bash on t4s, or they kill him while the 4 heroes bash on rax, and he buybacks and gets either BoT or tped by Eza.
He had, most of the time when they camped, over 5k gold which was more than enough for him to get bot and have for buyback.
0
The buyback was unnecessary, but mouz were pushing from the top river when korok got the rapier. Mouz were playing it safe, mouz just didn't expect liquid to meet them that far out.
It was a huge gamble, but a good one from Liquid. Liquid lost a tier 4 tower and were able to wipe the entire Mouz team giving them the ability to push for the win.
2
Mouz were playing it safe, mouz just didn't expect liquid to meet them that far out.
They shot a rocket which clipped a few players at least when they moved out of base. They knew liquid was moving out and they must of known that liquid was aware of their movements too.
1
the rocket actually didn't show liquid moving out. I think liquid purposefully waited for the rocket before moving out.
2
as h4nni said get hex next time :D
28
Aghanims was just a terrible item choice on Visage. What did he think flak cannon was going to do mid/late game to his familiars? He could've made a necro instead and provided much more for his team, or a scythe.
2
This is the thing that makes the late late game so much fun to watch, teams rarely practice against it since a lot of teams would have gg'd this match in a scrim and you get a game like this maybe 1/10 official matches as compared to pre 20 mins work which is seen every game and scrim which ends up being 50 times as often as the ultra late game.
1
Anyone else think Black was too manly and thats what cost them?
-2
Improve their skill
stfu, like you are better.
-24
The angst, the AM icon, too good.
7
No, he's not. Then again, his job isn't to play DotA and his job isn't to do retarded mistakes like that buyback was or let a team come back from 2 sets of sentinel rax down when scourge has all their T2 up.
It is Mouz's job though, and they failed horrible at it.
4
I just really like mouz and really want them to get better, at least for TI3! :)
But seriously, watch the VoD again if you want. Listen carefully what Hanni said the whole time. And keep in mind, he analysed in a way as if he himself was playing on mouz' side (without calculating in the current positions of the Liquid players). I just believe his tactical insights was so fucking good that if Kuroky would've thought in similar patterns, this game wouldn't have been that huge throw.
2
You are a moron
-3
So are you.
-9
Holy. Fucking. Shit. My heart.
77
Liquid is going to give me a heart attack one of these days. I am not as young as I used to be.
#EagleTears
31
Eagle tears? Did the stream go down?
^^^^Someonewillgetthis
17
I am that someone
4
MLG Dallas 2011: Birth of Eagles
3
Never forget.
3
I was there. At the convention, where no one was able to play. Not at home, with the cute little eagles.
2
#HorseTears
ftfy, it is Team Liquid after all
8
I know everyone is going to talk about Gyro, Rapier, Korok, etc, and those are all amazing.. but holy shit, Bulba's Tinker. Just incredible. He fucking refused to let that Brewmaster use his ult.
76
[deleted]
56
TBH, Bulba's tinker only started making plays when Mouz started playing terrible at the end. Until that point, Bulba's tinker had been shut down very hard; very-low impact.
27
By getting shut down, you mean he got lanced once every fight.
1
[deleted]
-1
17 in a row.
68
THE YEAR OF LIQUID
37
LIQUID DECADE has a nice ring to it ...
10
My penis is rising.
9
New documentary pre-TI3: FLOODING!
3
Wasn't that 2012?
-1
Was postponed.
16
We had a fantastic 2012. :/
30
SET OF TWO YEARS OF LIQUID
3
Thought it was 17?
EDIT: yeah they beat 3D before mouz
15
yup its 17 :)
2
fixed
2
Sorry noob question, but can you clarify what this means? Does it mean they have advanced 17 rounds in a row? Because I know they have lost games in between all this success.
1
They have won 17 series (usually best of three games but sometimes best of one or best of five) in a row. This is the kind of shit you saw out of Zenith in their prime or Navi in 2011.
13
Or FIRE? We all know how that ended.
1
Yep, FIRE had a 13 series win streak at their beginning by mostly running that Force Staff Leoric strat IIRC. Source: http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/database.php?id=13221&start=170 (pages 18, 17, 16 - in this order)
2
I believe they've won 17 matches in a row, not positive though.
4
They had a similar streak last year about the same time under the name FIRE. They went 26-2 in their first big tournament matches.
1
Can't wait till they win 3 more and I can quote the bastion announcer.
1
dat feed by visage. giving 600 gold in 5 seconds for gyro
63
Seriously, what the hell was he trying to do? Land a 1.5 second stun uphill in the fog with his teammates nowhere near? Why? Those things have a range of 160 and 600 hp. How could Liquid have not killed them instantly?
7
He was trying to go for the melee rax which were low on hp. Visage familiars have INSANE burst damage and could easily have killed the rax if Liquid weren't paying attention.
18
This, if they got the rax, everyone would be like '500g definitely worth the rax'
3
[deleted]
63
Timestamped link: http://www.twitch.tv/tobiwandota/b/371333569?t=2h15m14s
54
Thx for the VoD
3
Are games 1 or 2 worth watching? Only have like 2 hours to blow.
1
[deleted]
1
This vod is working so poorly for me : (
1
Amazing game! Anyone else think Hanni is a great co-commentator?
Also - kind of feel bad for Black. He was amazing, while Fata and Kuroky made a ton of misplays all game. He would have been much better off on the inital NTH.
56
Kuroky wasted like 5 familiars to Gyro within 30 seconds.
44
Aghanims on Kuroky was more like a midas on Korok.
110
I'm not even sure why he bothers with the Aga's. His familiars were getting eaten by both their carries well before it.
8
Flak cannon kills them even when gyro isnt targetting them. I agree that hex would have been so much better.
6
Indeed. It's a great item when you're not playing against Medusa or Gyro. Otherwise....
1
6
6
Should also feel bad for pas, those were some sick clock lategames plays - completely cracking the base open with that one hook on 3!
25
Yeah that was really impressive from him, first time I have seen him play clock and I am looking forward to it in the future.
7
He knew to target tinker every time since bulba went blink over force staff and if he could shut down tinker, the fights would be much easier for his team. But he even one upped that, and got 2 or 3 man cogs each time.
1
I love how Hanni uses any opportunity say someone should by Boots of Travel.
25
Not anyone. He wanted pl to buy it to split push the lanes and the ms on the illusions really does add a lot of dps. Honestly if he got them over that crystallys, the game would have definitely been over. I don't know what he was thinking. They weren't lacking for dps at all.
18
Crit on PL illusions also means they kill creeps faster and less chance of spawning more illusions. I also think it's a mistake to get Daed on PL most of the time.
12
Plus giving crit to SD's copies did help to push that Dire mid tower as well.
1
I'm not saying it was a bad idea. Its just that Hanni is known for rushing BoT on every hero he plays.
1
True that, Fata had ~2sec too either use Cheese OR Ultimate, did neither, died and Liquid changed to game and won, GEGE FATA.
7
Kuroky buying a aghs against a gyro was straight up retarded. Gyro probably had half his late game rapier off familiars.
1
he just moans about everything.
-5
he was unbearable, Would rather have Synderen.
-11
Real men go rapier
48
Reinventing Throws.
36
Filthy throw by mouz. I can't even begin to grasp how in the flying fuck they lost that.
Kudos to Liquid for fighting it out.
34
it was an entertaining game, but nowhere close to "Game of the Year" material. You have to have both teams playing well, not making big mistakes, getting the right items, and making the right decisions for a great game.
And EternalEnvy was on the money when he said that Dire should have gone more blade mails and used them effectively. Clock had the right idea but just never executed the Blade Mail correctly.
1
Black bought back to get rosh since it was coming up really soon, liquid knew that with the rapier they had the advantage in a 5v5 engagement as long as bulba could keep brew from splitting by permahexing. So I think there is some justification for the buyback from black. Only thing I think he did wrong was building crit over mkb. The damage difference for pushing is 0 and he already melted the supports so mkb had more dps vs gyro than crit.
Liquid taking that last fight to mouz was just a really good call since they knew that if they tried to turtle mouz would just use brew ult to take korok out of the fight with cyclone and then just focus rax. Mouz made some mistakes, but really it was liquid playing extremely well and some really good calls by fluff which allowed them to capitalize on it.
Oh, and kuroky getting aghs vs a gyro......
1
'MURICA.
33
NA doto is best doto.
0
Shut the fuck up you shit eating xenophobe
-4
Jesus Christ. Take a joke. I'm not even American. There's no reason to get your jimmies in a rustle.
0
WHAT THE FUCK
-Liquid`BuLba
FUCK THE WHAT?
MOUZ?
OKAY!
~BULBA
https://twitter.com/LiquidBuLba/status/271719648087650304
I see you changed your mind.
which game was that referring to?
Some game at Dreamhack Winter where No Tidehunter abused stack and pulls to farm their carry and win, that is exactly what they did in this game.
[deleted]
How exceptionally professional, not that I would expect anything less from you.
DAT BLACK RAQEQUIT
Biggest tinker plays ever EZ.