Going through NG+ made me realize...

Discussion

Being able to warp to any bonfire was indeed a bad move, in my opinion.

Edit: As some people are misunderstanding, I'm not talking about having the ability to warp from the beginning of the game. That's fine. I'm taking about being able to warp to any bonfire in the game instead of only certain ones like in DkS1. /edit

At first I really enjoyed the freedom it allowed. But after sinking over 100 hours into my NG playthrough, my NG+ run is making me realize how many places I only ever saw once in the entire game. The world ends up feeling very "videogame level" based. Like a Mario world, just warp to level 4-2.

I think it directly contributes to the complaints about the world not feeling as connected as DkS1. Obviously the design itself is definitely not as connected, but it feels even less so when you're constantly seeing the same short parts over again and skipping all of the connecting areas.

Thoughts?

Posted Apr 12, 2014, 9:35 PM UTC · edited

6390
Goodbye_Galaxy•

Agreed. I would've preferred a system with, say, "Great Bonfires" that can be warped to, each having a firekeeper somewhere, and then "Minor Bonfires" peppered throughout an area that cannot be warped to or from.

Of course, that would require completely different level design.

44
WearMoreHats•

I think this is the best solutions I've seen so far for it. I really enjoyed being able to immediately warp at first, but by my second playthrough I realised that I'd already forgotten how to get to certain areas and where other areas lead to. It's a real shame, especially since DS1 did such a good job of forcing you to become familiar with the layout and got around the issues of long travel times by adding shortcuts and clever level design.

18
sn4ggl32th\[T]/•

I must have a really good memory, as I didn't have that issue. I felt like the levels could have been a little denser, but I was overall satisfied with the experience in NG and NG+

11
Spartan1117•

So basically like Dark souls 1

11
Lefuf•

No. There are some areas in Dark Souls 1 that you just can't warp to, like Lost Izalith and Catacombs.

1
Chilli_Axe•

He mentioned that you can't warp from lesser bonfires, so it gives you less mobility throughout the level.

1
Danny_L•

I don't think different world/level design would necessarily hurt. I preferred the more real/believable and actually connected world of DS1. That being said DS2 is a great game and Bell Bro PVP is amazing.

3
[deleted]•

Yeah, the areas of the game feel pretty disconnected at times. Hell I still have no freaking clue how the Iron Keep can physically be where it is (going up an elevater on the Earthern peak takes you to that? Dafuq?)

2
giulianosseGiulianosse-BR•

connected world

Bingo.

The world of Dark Souls 2 feels a lot less "interconnected" than it did in Dark Souls 1. There are a lot less shortcuts between areas, so it tends to make the world feel a lot like "two different pathways leading to isolated areas" than "two different pathways that ends in the same place"

1
butterfly1763•

I like this idea, but maybe with a one-way warp available from normal bonfires, but only ever to the specific bonfires. So from anywhere, you could return to a blacksmith or whatever, but you would then have to go back through the area normally. Much like the terminals often work in MegaTen - longer dungeons usually have a large terminal near the beginning, with small ones that you can only one-way back to the large from. Hell, maybe even go a step farther, and include a rare item that you burn at a bonfire to allow warping to it from anywhere.

2
CrzdHaloman•

Well the bonfires at the end of the rat and bell covenant areas better remain warpable to. I do not want to be invaded just trying to go through the area again.

1
Tallim•

Actually I would have liked if you needed to light all the Sconces in an area to be able to warp to the bonfire there. Would have made lighting sconces mean more.

1
conscience1121Giving Blues Summons•

When I first heard about it, it certainly slowed down my hype train, and I still don't like it. I loved that feeling in Dark Souls 1 of inter-connectivity and the finding of shortcuts, and that doesn't really happen in Dark Souls 2 because of the warp ability. But once again, as with so many other small issues with Dark Souls 2, I can live with it.

31
TheRedJesterOP•

But once again, as with so many other small issues with Dark Souls 2, I can live with it.

Absolutely. I didn't want this to come off as another "DkS 2 is worse than the others..." rant, because I truly love the game. It was just something I noticed. I was thinking if they cut down the warpable bonfires to a half or third of the total ones it might help the feel of the world.

That being said, it's also been pointed out that the world itself was designed with this warp system in mind, so simply changing it now might just make it tedious.

18
urethral_lobotomy•

I didnt know about the souls series until dark souls1 was a year old but after a couple hundred hours in I bought demons souls and after a hundred hours of that I dug up some really old threads that were very similar to this type of thread.

In the old threads people were complaining about how they went from using the nexus to warp to completely different locations that each had their own amazing atmosphere to the open world of dark souls that felt like it had very little atmosphere.

I feel like they heard those complaints and they tried to mix the two different world designs together and in my opinion I think they did a great job of it but they forgot the people complaining were most likely the minority, just like the people complaining about this game.

But no matter what they do different people are gonna have different complaints about each game because thats just how people are.

8
Danny_L•

I think taking complaints about either system is kind of silly. Whatever version you prefer it will never turn you off enough because the mechanics of these games are what really keeps bringing us back.

3
Danny_L•

Changing it now would have to completely change the world design IMO. I agree with both of you I prefer the system of DS1 warping and exploring, but god damn if the combat and PVP weren't improved!

1
cpavanelli•

Think about the tree shortcut near huntsman copse second bonfire, never used it. ):

1
[deleted]•

I didn't even know there was a shortcut until just now.

2
butterfly1763•

I'm really split on this issue, actually. I agree 100% with the disappointment in the world not being connected. As for the level designs, this will be a controversial opinion, but I actually prefer the DS2/Demon's style of somewhat shorter levels. It lets them put more focus on the enemy placements and traps instead of on the player getting lost. That said, Dark Souls's huge open world style is pretty fun too, and I wouldn't be opposed to a future DLC/new Souls game more like it. As for the bonfire warping, it personally makes me want to revisit areas more often, since it's so easy to do. They're also much farther apart now because of the lack of shortcuts, and I feel like it'd be really tedious to walk from area to area they way they're designed. Of course, that leads me to think they implemented the bonfire system as a way of getting around having a less connected world...

27
TheRedJesterOP•

They're also much farther apart now because of the lack of shortcuts, and I feel like it'd be really tedious to walk from area to area they way they're designed. Of course, that leads me to think they implemented the bonfire system as a way of getting around having a less connected world...

This is true, it probably wouldn't help much to only change the warp system now without changing the world along with it.

5
praetor47•

bonfires farther apart? i don't think so... barring a few exceptions (areas that have only 1 BF like Wharf or Dragon shrine [fuck that place and those drakekeepers, btw :P]), the bonfires are pretty frequent. and yeah, it seems like the bf warping and abundance of bonfires made them quite lazy in their level design (they pretty much put bonfires instead of shortcuts so they aren't all that frequent, and rarely clever/interesting)

oh, and Demons didn't really have shorter levels than DaS1 or 2 (ignoring the final bosses levels ;)). it was somewhat varied in that regard, just like DaS1 and 2 :P

3
OIPR2 spammer•

It lets them put more focus on the enemy placements and traps

in theory, yeah. but i wouldn't say the enemy placement/design is particularly inspired for most of the game.. especially after doing those idiots outside velsdadt a few times in a row last night. "what's better than 3 enemies.. 8 enemies!"

i would much prefer openable shortcuts to more bonfires. huntsman's copse / skeleton lords shortcut is a good example, that is good level design. you bash through something and then it becomes much easier.

3
Lefuf•

Yup, definitely missed that shortcut. Could you enlighten me?

1
OIPR2 spammer•

from the lockaway (name?) bonfire, if you go along one side of the chasm there are all the little forest guys with clubs and knives etc. on the other side, the skeletons and casters. one of the skeleton tunnels has a level in it which opens a gate, the lever can only be pulled from the far side, which is right next to the boss fog. so once you get to the boss fog and open it once, you can run through it again to go straight to the boss fight. this does take some dodging of the skeletons but it's easier than running past the forest guys.

1
Lefuf•

Awesome, thanks!

1
mitch13815BATHE IN BLOOD, ALL HAIL NAHR ALMA•

I don't get the shortcut in Huntman's corpse, push over a tree so you can get to the BONFIRE faster.

2
PopePolarBear•

My problem is that there is no reliance on shortcuts anymore, they just ramped up the amount of bonfires. instead of "oh wow I kicked down this ladder and I'm back at the first bonfire" its just I kicked down this ladder and I'm at a new bonfire. It creates a sense of Linearity, instead of one huge interconnected world we are just going from bonfire to bonfire.

17
Tallim•

It does screw up the (and I hate to use this word) immersion a bit but if you think about it the added bonfires fulfill the same role as shortcuts but without the tedious running about.

2
PopePolarBear•

they may fulfill the same purpose but at the cost of ingenuity and complex level design that Dark souls was praised for. See that castle in the distance, you can go there, and that elevator over there will eventually lead you to the back way, stuff like that was so ingenious, they really took the easy way out, I wonder if that was directly due to exit of the original lead designer.

1
Tallim•

What they seemed to be going for in DS2 was a mixture of DeS and DS1 in tone and mechanics. I don't think it worked out personally.

1
PopePolarBear•

I can see that, and I agree, it didn't work so well lol

1
Kalakashah•

Dude, I don't know how anyone can say it was fun having to go back to andre from anor londo for an upgrade or something and back.

14
TheRedJesterOP•

That's not what I'm saying. I'm fine with being able to warp from the beginning of the game instead of unlocking the ability much later. I just wish they kept warping to only certain bonfires instead of every single one.

Warping to bonfires next to blacksmiths and whatnot is fine, but there are so many connecting parts of the world you only ever see once.

14
[deleted]•

I want the repair box back so I can repair my damn rings at a bonfire instead of having to run to the blacksmith every single time. It's not an issue, its just extra time wasted for me to run back to Majula or Lost Bastille to get them fixed.

7
thebluegod•

They should have made the repair box an item you get from the Majula blacksmith after spending 10,000 souls or something. I can live with warping to reinforce my weapon, but having to warp back and forth just to repair my Ring of Life Protection is quite tedious.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
Kalakashah•

Perhaps you are right.

1
Chemoshofdeath•

Hey, they gave you dragon shrine to go through before that big dragon.... what more could you want?

But on a more serious note... most people just sprinted past monsters to get through places anyway I don't think less bonfires would have changed much

13
troglodyte•

And in DS2, many zones will despawn anyway. It seems unnecessary to force people to run through desolate zones.

I'm in the "I explore more now" camp, too, so I favor the current design (except forcing Majula for leveling).

4
thursdae•

I'm in the "I explore more now" camp, too, so I favor the current design (except forcing Majula for leveling).

I enjoy that due to it reminding me of Demon Souls.

5
marvellouschester•

But really, they should have added a second bonfire in dragon shrine closer to the boss. I really didn't want to run all the way from the bonfire to the dragon, running past the enemies, just to fight him for like 2 seconds and get 1 shot.

I took me a good while to end up clearing all the enemies there too so a second bonfire would've really helped for people who don't like to run past all the enemies like me

2
Uniform764•

I believe there is a second bonfire near the boss. Hidden behind a fake wall.

1
craftyj•

I think you're thinking of a different dragon in Aldia's Keep

1
Uniform764•

I might be yeah.

1
marvellouschester•

I checked the wiki before clearing out all the enemies and I didnt see anything about a second bonfire?

1
SovereignPaladin•

I disagree. I certainly didn't like having to beat half the game in DkS1 just to get the Lordvessel and be able teleport. It was cool the first time but not all of the many many subsequent play throughs. I remember before the second game came out hoping that warping would be availaible from the get go.

I wouldn't want to run through 4 areas just to turn in some covenant items and then backtrack the same 4 areas just to get back where I wanted to be.

If anything it just gets rid if a lot of tediousness.

I also pvp in a lot of areas and if I have a sudden mood change from Iron keep to huntsmans copse or Bellfry Luna I can do that.

6
Cold_damage•

I also pvp in a lot of areas and if I have a sudden mood change from Iron keep to huntsmans copse or Bellfry Luna I can do that.

While warping from the beginning is certainly good, do you really need to warp to three different bonfires in huntsman's copse or iron keep? I think it would be fine to cut out the bridge approach and undead lockaway from the warp menu, as well as the last bonfire at iron keep. There are many bonfires that are merely a minor convenience and not all that useful. They just take away from the game's feel.

1
concera•

I think the convenience of it outweighs the emphasis on the world's connectivity. In DkS1 I was always frustrated as piss whenever I wanted to start a new character because everywhere up to Anor Londo felt like a speed run to pick up the Lord Vessel.

I'm also of the belief that the game is what you want it to be. If you want to see the world without the travel option, do a no bonfire run! It's challenging at times, but I find it to be part of a definitive Dark Souls experience.

6
thebluegod•

I don't know about others, but I have more of an incentive to replay this game because of the exact reason you stated. In the first game replaying meant running around to get the exact weapons I want and then dealing with the two bells. In this game it's more open at the start, meaning the beginning of every playthrough has a chance to be very different.

2
[deleted]•

I couldn't really believe it at first. I thought the bonfire intensity 1 meant that you had one available warp left. I was shocked when I realized I had unlimited warps to everywhere.

For me, it takes away the feeling of being on a journey through Drangleic.

5
erabeus•

I disagree. Let's say it was like DS1 and you could warp after getting through a threshold part of the game. In DS1, it was O&S, in DS2 let's say it's after killing the 4 big souls.

So all you have left to kill is the Old Iron King. You're at the Eygils Idol bonfire in the giant iron cow head. You've been going through the game alright with your fire long sword you got from the beginning of the game, but it just isn't doing the trick versus that giant lava cow. You need to uninfuse it, but you don't have the ability to warp yet because you haven't killed the final big soul, the Old Iron King. So you treck back through the iron keep to the furnace in the middle. You trek back through the keep past all the Alonne samurai and you finally get to the Iron Keep bridge bonfire. Now you just take the elevator down to the top of earthen peak to mythas boss room. Now just walk out of the boss room (make sure to kill every gravewarden and pyromancer so you don't get one shot) and you get to the central earthen peak bonfire. Now you go past the manikins, over the walkway flanked by archers, past another manikin ambush, to the bonfire after the covetous demon. Now you fight your way through 5 hammer wielders, some poison pots, past some giant overseers, through some poison pits, now you're at the very first bonfire of harvest valley. Now you have to go back to the skeleton lord boss room (technically impossible because there's a broken ladder). Go across the giant iron bridge, through the boss room, through the ledges with the rogue ambushes, through the main area of the copse, past felkin, through the moving doors past licia, now you're in majula! But wait, mcduff is in the Bastille. Now the fastest way would be to walk through the cave to the forest of fallen giants, past the hollow infantry, up the ladder to the ambush with the heide knight, past some more guys to the cardinal tower bonfire. Now go down the ladder, past some spear guy ambushes, up the stairs to the pursuers room, into the bird nest, to the Bastille, past 3 mummy guards, 6 dogs, and you're finally there! Now uninfuse your weapon for 1000 souls.

Great. Now you've got the correct weapon. Now it's time to go back to Eygils idol bonfire.

4
Zombieswilleatu•

.Ok. This is disregarding the shortcuts which were prevalent in ds1. It is also disregarding the OP, because they said the ability to teleport is not where they take issue, but rather the ability to teleport to every bonfire, rather than a hand picked select few, as in ds1.

1
erabeus•

The shortcuts completely trivialized levels. You could get through tomb of the giants in under a minute without fighting anything. You could skip most of the dukes archives. You could skip the entirety blighttown, catacombs, etc.

OP talks about how he only ever saw parts of the game once. How many times did you 100% blighttown, catacombs, or ariamis after you figured out the short cuts.

1
acederp•

i've been to the detph's once. fuck that place.

1
Zombieswilleatu•

I was more or less referring to the shortcuts between areas. Like the door in the sewer that opens to firelink, or the elevator from parish etc.

1
lordvelka•

Whoever goes through the majority of the game with just one type of weapon or shield is a noob and would deserve the punishment of having to go back all the way, taking that whole route would teach a lesson, fortunately for them DaS2 is noob friendly.

0
erabeus•

Not really...

I beat the whole game with the Greatsword and no shield.

I certainly didn't learn any lessons.

1
lordvelka•

Exactly what I was saying the game is a lot more forgiving, I can't see someone beating all the bosses in DaS1 in their first playthrough without a shield always, simply because it was really difficult to avoid some magic attacks like those from the four kings, possible yes but certainly a lot more difficult to pull off in the previous game. So off course you didn't learn any lessons, it's DaS2 ;)

1
anEnglishmanPraise the Sun!•

I think its good to be able to warp to all bonfires if you made sure to experience the game 100% the first time. It allowed me to focus on other things and I appreciated the freedom it gave.

3
fuckboystrikesagain•

It's a lot of Demon's Souls mixed with a lot of Dark Souls so I can't complain.

3
Puppy_Bot•

I think the teleporting feature should have been like it was in DKS1, where you get it after defeating a certain boss. I think in DKS2 you should have gotten the teleporting ability after completing drangleic(?) castle (mirror knight), or when you kindle all the primal bonfires. I would have been okay with that.

But on the other hand, say someone were to venture into the gutter area. There is no way of getting back to the main area without teleporting. Either there would have to be an item where you can tele back to the main bonfire, or maybe use your curse-mark to drop all your souls/humanity to tele back.

Also, the need to teleport would have been completely useless if you were able to levelup/repair at every bonfire. But since they took that out of the game the ability to teleport was almost required. Unless there was an item like I talked about in the last paragraph.

Overall, I think that if they had designed the game a little better, i.e. somewhat easy access to the main area without teleporting, or being able to repair/levelup at other bonfires then that would have been fine. But I wouldn't say that teleporting is all that gamebreaking at all. I definitely think that the fact that you can use life protecting rings an infinite amount of times is worse. I have 8 life protection rings in NG++, and about to be 9. So as long as I have 1 of my soon to be 9 rings on I don't have to worry about dying or losing my souls, I can just teleport back and repair them with the insane amount of souls I get from bosses. Also, say for some reason you break all the rings and die without a ring of life protection on, as long as you put back on another ring those souls that you dropped won't go away, because technically you haven't "died" yet. Those ring's are a total exploit.

3
ProBluntRoller•

Sorry i just dont count having to run all the way across the map just to do one thing as a positive in dark souls

3
DirektLine•

Yeah, I loved the fact that you could look down on, say, Blighttown from the Burg and just about see where you were going.

On the other hand, how many people became used to just getting the Master Key and taking the route that opened up?

2
kingchess33•

I have to say though, one of my favorite parts of DS1 was how you could take all those shortcuts from the start of the game. Something I liked to do was take that route down and fight Quelaag as the first boss of the game, stop by the Everlasting Dragon to say hi, or run reverse upper blighttown to start the game with a whip or Iaito.

6
OIPR2 spammer•

making new characters in DS1 was basically speedrunning the first half of the game. somehow this was really fun though..

1
eternal_wait•

No big deal, enemies most likely don't even respawn in the areas i've been to, like from majula to the forrest of fallen giants and between the first two bonfires in the place that the carriage flies you to. I've farm them all to extintion. I've really only been to those two places, am starting my first ng, i may go back there once i get my hands on some ascetics to see what else i can find.

2
outlooker707•

I think they put in too many areas and so quite a few are forgettable. It would have preffered less-more fleshed out areas.

2
coghosty•

Titles like this always tend to....

2
coghosty•

bother me. Why not just say what you mean to say in the title, then go in depth?

2
bivage•

They replaced running around and getting to know your world with loading screens and getting to know the positions of bonfires on a menu screen that hasn't loaded fast enough.

I think the biggest fuck ups was making NG+ cooler than NG and locking certain spells and items behind covenant ranks, turning PvP into a fucked up CoD style killfest - omg omg omg i only need 10 more kills and I get my super gold camo ladle omg

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1