Source
r/buildapc•
okp11

Before people throw PNY under the bus, you guys really need to wait for more information.

Listen, before Reddit goes full anti-CISPA meme squad mode, you really need to wait until more information is available about the PNY Optima SSD.

I am well aware of what Kingston did and it was unquestionably unethical. Here are my three posts about it which brought light to the matter:

http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/1ur11x/discussion_psa_about_the_kingston_v300_ssd/

http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/1vfbrw/discussionupdate_on_the_psa_about_the_kingston/

http://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/1zhxef/discussion_update_2_on_the_kingston_v300_ssd/

In Kingston's case, they DID change the NAND, supposedly based on availability, and it DID make the drive slower. If this makes you upset, nothing that has happened in the last 5 months should change that. Boycott them all you like.

However, Jumping to boycott PNY when we have almost no information about the supposed bait and switch is EXTREMELY RASH. We have ONE record of a person receiving a non-SMI based PNY Optima so we have no idea if this was in any way widespread. Silicon Motion is far from a big player in the consumer SSD Controller realm so it makes perfect sense that they wouldn't be able to meet demand. If that is the case, I don't blame PNY at all.

Most importantly, WE DON'T HAVE ANY BENCHMARKS OF THE SANDFORCE BASED DRIVE SO WE DON'T KNOW IF IT IS ACTUALLY WORSE. If PNY just changed the controller and is still using the 20nm IMFT Synchronous NAND that the old Optima used, then I guarantee the drive will perform either the same or better in basically every metric.

Should they have changed the controller without telling anyone? Probably not. But if PNY really only changed the controller then I 100% do not have a problem with this business practice. In that case they would have changed something that will either positively affect or won't affect basically everyone. You essentially would be getting an upgrade from the Optima to an XLR8 because the PNY XLR8 is a synchronous Sandforce based drive.

I've seen articles like this with outlandish titles claiming that the SSD might have changed NAND but include absolutely no evidence for this.

TL;DR You guys seriously need to hold off on your defamation quest on PNY. This news just came out 3 days ago. Wait for this story to take shape before going on a smear campaign that might hurt a company that possibly did nothing wrong.

I'm probably going to be buying a PNY Optima to open it up to see the components and then benchmark it. The only problem is that I want to make sure it is a Sandforce based Optima. If anyone has an Optima and wants to check the firmware to see if it matches up with the Sandforce naming scheme, PM me. It should look like this: 541ABBF0(or with similar numbers/letters). Maybe we can work something out where I can purchase it from you.

Posted Jun 14, 2014, 7:32 PM UTC · edited

605113
fco2013•

GG u/okp11 always on point with the SSD lowdown.

Seriously though this was my exact sentiment. All of a sudden people are freaking out that all PNY SSDs are crap now when the Article states it has only affected the Optima series. Plus as you said, unlike the V300 which is a well documented case, with have a single bit of anecdotal experience from a single person at the moment, so we need to see how this pans out before getting out the pitchforks.

84
cuteman•

Same thing happened with Seagate and backblaze. Then we come to find Backblaze's methods and procurement methods were amateurish and not to be trusted.

Lots of novices here jumping on bandwagons around here with little to no information.

Some random best buy employee cut me off at the intersection..... Fuck best buy, nobody shop there, let's boycott them you guys!!!

12
SPOOFE•

Then we come to find Backblaze's methods and procurement methods were amateurish and not to be trusted.

Huh? Didn't Backblaze present their data as simply observations from their own harsh use conditions? It was all the shrill forum alarmists that presented it as any sort of objective test.

2
cuteman•

Except their own observations were flawed due to procurement methods like buying external drives from Costco and pulling the internal drives for use in their enclosures.

Then there's the enclosures themselves that have larger temp and vibration variance in a few cubic feet whereas Google has less variance across entire data centers.

Their 'study' was majorly flawed. Like a child looking at a pizza and assuming the sauce is ketchup. It's their unique observation, right? Despite non typical use, it should count for something right? But any bargain basement chef knows pizza sauce is not ketchup, similar, but not at all the same, at all.

2
SPOOFE•

Did they ever call it a "study"?

2
Shmeves•

To be fair, Best Buy isn't really a good comparison. You shouldn't shop there, if only because they treat their employees like crap. And they aren't cheap.

Yeah totally unrelated to the point of your message, but thought I'd be a stick in the mud.

1†
cuteman•

To be fair, Best Buy isn't really a good comparison. You shouldn't shop there, if only because they treat their employees like crap.

How do they treat their employees like Crap? Their average pay is well above minimum wage. Especially for full time employees.

And they aren't cheap.

Overhead costs. How does it work!?!

Yeah totally unrelated to the point of your message, but thought I'd be a stick in the mud.

Yeah, I don't think you know what you're talking about though.

6
iceburgh29•

Boycott PNY everything! /s

3
Neo6488•

I use a pny flash drive. Is it safe?

11
fco2013•

I know you're joking, but the sad thing is there are people actually saying that in the other thread.

5
celocanth13•

Lets not forget that it was a mod of the subreddit that started the PNY witch hunt.

38
JD_and_ChocolateBear•

He was posting as a user though, and not a mod.

10
PhantomTaco•

He's still a moderator of this sub, and as a more "public" figure he does need to be more responsible and careful about the things he says and does. It isn't asking for much that he considers getting his facts together before making a claim that drives a huge reddit mob into a frenzy like it appears to have done. Doubly so when it's something that (from what we can tell at least) doesn't impact end user performance, and may in fact improve it.

19
qwerqmaster•

The original thread surfaced on r/all, and all hell broke loose from there on.

I think bapc has reached a point where there's enough people here to have an exciting and active community, but any more would have detrimental effects against the original intentions of this sub.

28
[deleted]•

[deleted]

29
karmapopsicle•

Also, as that post still on the top of the sub proves, it's extraordinarily easy to sway the opinions of users, since a lot of them simply don't know better. They read one post and suddenly PNY is an awful company and nobody should recommend anyone buy any of their products.

12
[deleted]•

[deleted]

16
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
zekebefree•

Sounds like a plan... puts away pistol and torch.

12
jiraph52•

We've upgraded from pitchforks? cool!

7
FeverishAmishTrooper•

Only for special occasions. This apparently was one of them.

2
Sir_Leminid•

Ha! Under the BUS!

7
anonymau5•

Too late :( the train is in gear and heading right toward the shitter :(

6
PeeledApples•

Changing controller chips and chipsets in consumer devices is commonplace in the IT industry. You see it all the time with devices like USB WiFi cards, motherboards (particularly for things like ethernet and audio codec chips), firewire cards, and whatever else you might find. 99% of the time it's absolutely fine, because we as consumers are buying the headline product title and (to a lesser extent) its advertised specs, not the technical details. Until further info surfaces, I don't see any reason why this occasion falls under the 1%.

6
tomorrowis•

Yea it's not a situation where we know for absolute certain PNY was advertising an SSD with a V8 engine but ended up selling ones with a 4 cylinder. The Kingston stuff has been happening for nearly half a year, kinda surprised the outrage is boiling over now and in turn spreading to PNY; where we just don't have enough information currently for a definitive call

5
dylan522p•

No its not. The new controller isn't even worse. If anything it's a better controller. Plus they never advertised it.

Edit: I can't read.

5
tomorrowis•

I said it wasn't?

2
dylan522p•

You said they were advertising a "v8" and switched to a "v4."

Edit: I can't read.

4
Watashig•

He said that we don't know if PNY put in a worse controller or not.

8
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
hey_aaapple•

You have my congratulations. It is pretty rare to see someone admit he made a mistake.

1
logged_n_2_say•

kinda surprised the outrage is boiling over now

if true, kingston doing it once is bad, pny doing it again shows a real problem.

1
Superpowers810•

I'm still going to keep recommending the XLR8 SSD in builds. It's $10 cheaper than the Crucial M500 and a tiny bit slower

3
okp11OP•

I would say the XLR8 is actually a bit faster than the M500. Especially when factoring in any compression.

1
AndroidMercury•

So, is the XLR8 changed at all or just the Optima?

1
okp11OP•

Should just be the Optima

2
logged_n_2_say•

PNY in the past has been a pretty good company for the large amount of products they bring to market, but if this forces PNY to make an official statement and draws more attention to the kingston issue (which we are in your debt for fleshing out and drawing attention) then i feel it was a necessary evil.

kingston's response has been, underwhelming, to say the least and a trending topic can send warning shots across the bow of every major maker.

with all that said, PNY should be given the benefit of the doubt, and a chance to respond. if there is no issue we should try and minimize damage as much as possible (similar to this thread.)

1
zaenger•

The thing that really gets me is that companies always release new skus of the same model with slight changes. Laptops, for example, were recently releasing new skus of their models with AC wireless around December. This is like getting mad at AMD for selling some r9 290s that could be flashed to 290xs.

I guess the issue is that they didn't tell anyone, but AMD didn't say some 290s were just 290xs that didn't pass certain inspections (I'm just assuming this, but this is what many tech companies do) and nobody was mad, because it was nice for some people.

1
bugzrrad•

I just received my Optima 240... SMI as advertised

1
okp11OP•

Well the thing is, they don't even advertise a controller.

7
bugzrrad•

Then what is everyone's problem?

3
Ramy1999•

I have no idea. That is what this thread is trying to point out.

6
MakeFake•

r/okp11, you are my favorite Redditor

You are like 1/5 out of all help out of everyone from over 200k people, and definitely the one who brings out the best information reliably

1
reddit4409•

I received an Optima 240GB with firmware version N0530A. Different from the N0307A reported for SMI controller and 541ABBF0 (or similar) for Sandforce. I may have a SMI controller, since the fw version number seems to follow there fw numbering scheme

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-2†
Squat-Tech•

So, does this mean no pitchforks?

---------€

-3
StarSlayerX•

Sorry man, I don't trust SandForce Controller after a series of failures due to that controller. I prefer the Silicon Motion Controller based SSD (Which was in Optima before the bait and switch) than SandForce.

When I buy a product I expect that it has the same components as advertised and not be bait and switched.

Is not about the performance. It is all about the components that I want purchased.

-5†
okp11OP•

The problems with Sandforce were resolved a long time ago. There is a reason Intel, Kingston, OCZ, Mushkin, Patriot, PNY, OWC, and many others stuck with Sandforce. Its a solid controller, especially for the price.

When I buy a product I expect that it has the same components as advertised and not be bait and switched.

This, I agree with but only if they actually advertise a controller. In this case, PNY doesn't advertise the controller. The only reason people know what the controller is is because Tweaktown reviewed it(and I'm pretty sure the one they reviewed they bought on their own, it wasn't a review sample).

While I would obviously prefer companies not change things around, I understand when they do it out of necessity. SMI is a relatively small player when you are comparing it to LSI Sandforce. We've seen companies switch to smaller NAND fab processes and different OEMs over the lifecycle of a single drive(OCZ, Corsair, Mushkin, Intel, and obviously Kingston) and when it doesn't hurt the consumer, I really don't have a problem with it.

32
[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
okp11OP•

Well to be fair, this sort of thing happens all the time without people noticing. Most of the time, people rightfully shouldn't care.

If you look at video card manufacturers they swap around VRAM on cards like no one's business. Its not possible for them to maintain a single VRAM vendor over the lifetime of a video card plenty of the time. They have to swap between Hynix, Samsung, Elpida, etc to meet demand. You'll find varying degrees of how much people care about this depending on the person, but the brand of VRAM can definitely make a difference when overclocking VRAM.

12
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0†
hojnikb•

The problems with Sandforce were resolved a long time ago. There is a reason Intel, Kingston, OCZ, Mushkin, Patriot, PNY, OWC, and many others stuck with Sandforce. Its a solid controller, especially for the price.

Actually, thats not true at all. Issues with encryption is still present (only aes 128b instead of 256b) aswell with performance degradation. And the BSODs are not gone either, as the core of the problem is still not fixed. So yeah. If lots of companies are using it, doesn't necesserly makes it good. (think jmicron 602; everyone used it, despite being utter garbage). There are contracts, that they need to stick with. And besides, everyone is moving away from sandforce anyway, what you see is just old drives, that are still being sold. Newly released drives based on sandforce are only from companies that have nothing (no nand fab or controller or firmware team) so they go with sandforce, since its the complete package.

I'm personally not buying anything based on sandforce ever again, because 3 of my SSDs (all being from different manufactures but all featuring sandforce) are causing me trouble, while other ssds work just fine (set and forget it pretty much applies here).

-2
okp11OP•

Issues with encryption is still present (only aes 128b instead of 256b) aswell with performance degradation.

I am aware. I am also well aware of the fact that it has both front and back end 128-bit encryption. I highly doubt there is more than a handful of people that actually care about this in an SF-2281 based drive.

And the BSODs are not gone either, as the core of the problem is still not fixed. So yeah. If lots of companies are using it, doesn't necesserly makes it good. (think jmicron 602; everyone used it, despite being utter garbage).

This is just not true. Sandforce fixed the BSOD issue on their end back in like 2011-2012. It was a firmware issue. It was rectified by every manufacturer I know of.

And besides, everyone is moving away from sandforce anyway, what you see is just old drives, that are still being sold. Newly released drives based on sandforce are only from companies that have nothing (no nand fab or controller or firmware team) so they go with sandforce, since its the complete package.

The only reason we aren't seeing as many drives released with the SF-2281 controller is because its over 3 years old.

There are TONS of manufacturers partnering with Sandforce for their 3rd gen SF-3700 series controller though, and it is going to be a monster of a performer.

3
hojnikb•

This is just not true. Sandforce fixed the BSOD issue on their end back in like 2011-2012. It was a firmware issue. It was rectified by every manufacturer I know of.

It wasn't fixed (issue lies within hardware, not firmware) just patched. I myself (and probobly bunch of other people) can confirm, that BSODs still exists. I'm getting them on all my drives, despite being replaced and updated with the latest firmware. And its not a matter of platform either (tested on different chipsets), its still there. Hell, even AnandTech confirmed this, when intel 520 series came out.

"The BSOD is caused by a bug in SandForce's power state logic that ultimately results in the drive disconnecting from the system while it's running. It turns out that Windows isn't a fan of you hot un-plugging the drive it's running on, which results in the BSOD. "

See, its a hardware issue, not software. Firmware just patched it, so it works for most people.

"Indeed most end user reports of SF-2281 BSODs went away with the fixed firmware, but we've still heard of isolated issues that remain unresolved."

Again confirming, that its a hardware issue.

"Intel did go on record saying that the 520 is expected to have far fewer F4/F7 BSODs than any other SF-2281 drive."

and again (why would drive be expected to have any f4 bsods at all if it was only a matter of a simple firmware fix?)

There are TONS of manufacturers partnering with Sandforce for their 3rd gen SF-3700 series controller though, and it is going to be a monster of a performer.

Yeah, if it ever makes it to market. Last time i checked, it still had quite a bit of issues and was delay several times. And other controller companies are launching their own pci-e based solutions that will mach or even beat sandforce already.

1
WedgeTalon•

It doesn't matter is u/StarSlayerX is correct in his distrust of SandForce or not. The controller is often a bullet point feature on SSDs. It doesn't matter that it wasn't a bullet point for this SSD, the fact that it is a differentiating factor in the market is what is important. To swap it is very shady. To draw an analogy, it would be like a mechanical keyboard swapping Cherry switches for knockoff switches made according to Cherry's specs and claiming it's ok because they only advertised it as a "mechanical keyboard". The knockoff may be just as good, or even better! But you chose that board because they used Cherry. It's the same thing with SSD controllers. I prefer Samsung SSDs and I expect them to be using Samsung's controller. I would be irate if I found out that it had SandForce or whatever else in it instead. The other post specifically stated PNY confirmed they did switch controllers. That is not acceptable.

-4
okp11OP•

This type of thing happens ALL THE TIME though on so many different types of hardware. I've seen tons of people on this thread and the other one reiterate this.

To draw an analogy, it would be like a mechanical keyboard swapping Cherry switches for knockoff switches made according to Cherry's specs and claiming it's ok because they only advertised it as a "mechanical keyboard". The knockoff may be just as good, or even better! But you chose that board because they used Cherry.

How about we draw another analogy? Lets say Kailh couldn't meet the demand of Razer for their switches so they switched to Cherry for a few batches. You think there would be rioting in the streets? You think there would be a post at the top of BaPC with 8,000 upvotes calling for a boycott? Nope.

I don't see this as any different. PNY's XLR8 is the next step up from the Optima. If they are giving consumers a synchronous Sandforce drive, they are essentially giving people a free upgrade, and people want to boycott them over this.

3
WedgeTalon•

If I were specifically tying to buy a Kailh and got a Cherry, yes, I would be upset.

It's like buy a Toyota and finding out it has a Ford engine. Maybe that Ford engine is faster, maybe it's even supposed to be better, but I bought the Toyota because I wanted the Toyota engine because I like and trust that brand better.

I understand substitutions happen a lot. But usually it's on stuff that doesn't matter. No one cares who supplies the wires or the screws because it doesn't matter. An SSD Controller does. There are people out there - such as u/StarSlayerX - who still don't trust SandForce, or alternatively who trust a different manufacturer more. In fact, I'm one of those. I buy Samsung drives because I implicitly trust their technology more than SandForce. If one of their drives was reviewed and had their controller, but then came out and for some weird reason had SandForce, I would be irate.

I really can see the argument you're making, and if it were a component that wasn't a differentiator in the market, I would agree. But many people select drives specifically because of the controller they use. Change who makes the connectors, who makes the casing, who makes the pcb, but don't touch the controller and the memory chips. Changing those are like changing the CPU and GPU before shipping a prebuilt system.

0
[deleted]•

[deleted]

14
dylan522p•

Which was also 99% user error.

9
honorface•

I would be scared of buying GM because of this recall crap.

Why would you buy something if there are other options that had not made a mistake in the past?

5
[deleted]•

[deleted]

12
Wesside•

Has Tesla done a recall?

-1
karmapopsicle•

Why would you buy something if there are other options that had not made a mistake in the past?

Because at this point they've been proven over and over again to be solid performers, and they do a fantastic job at a very reasonable price?

4
dylan522p•

Did you even read what the recall was about. It was so stupid but they had to make sure if anyone was an idiot they were not liable.

-5
honorface•

wtf are you smoking? Having your car turn off because you bumped your keys is horrible.

8
thescreensavers•

I don't buy SandForce anymore either, that's nice that they are better now but the damage was done.

-1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-6
okp11OP•

You are saying they should be able to swap out a crappier product with zero notification due to supply problems.

Where is the proof that it is a crappier product?

7
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-5
okp11OP•

If it doesn't matter why did you say that its a crappier product?

Do we know that they haven't changed the product number? Have we seen a Sandforce based drive's packaging to see if there isn't a different model number? We have a firmware revision on a drive from an anonymous source. THAT is what we know.

I would obviously like for them to to change model number probably more than anyone here, but I've seen this happen with DOZENS of products over their lifecycles. You know how many video card vendors change their VRAM OEMs over the span of a product's life? I don't see people boycotting the video card brands that do the exact same thing without telling anyone(and it is almost every video card manufacturer).

There are literally four companies that have the ability to control every component in their SSD. That is Toshiba, Samsung, Hynix, and Intel. Every other SSD manufacturer on the planet relies on other companies to supply them with NAND, controllers, and random other ICs.

If they are rebadging a synchronous Sandforce drive as an Optima, what is unethical about that? Do you know what the step up from the Optima is in PNY's lineup? Its the XLR8, a synchronous Sandforce drive. They would be giving you are free upgrade. So its worth boycotting a company because they are essentially bumping you up to their next best SSD in their lineup? Just because another company couldn't meet their demand for controllers?

Its obviously not ideal. No one is arguing that. I'm not even saying that PNY should get off scotch free. We've seen companies make PSAs and change names and that is without a doubt the best way to handle a situation where they plan to permanently change something. However, there has to be a point where its just not worth the fuss. We don't know how widespread these drives with Sandforce controllers are. If it was literally one or two batches don't you think that it is a bit excessive to make a completely new product with no brand recognition that will have a lifecyle of a few months? When you are just giving people a drive that meets every criterion for why they bought it?

10
TheCompleteReference•

If it doesn't matter why did you say that its a crappier product?

Funny how you know I said it for all changes, but you have to make your case on only part of it because you have no case.

If you are only going to argue against changes for crappier changes, then you already concede that you are wrong. Because non crappy changes should get a new version number too.

So its worth boycotting a company because they are essentially bumping you up to their next best SSD in their lineup

Only if they didn't change a revision or version number on the outside of the box. Why are you so against them doing this? Many tech manufacturers change revision and version numbers when the product changes. Why should PNY and Kingston not do what others do?

What exactly is your reason for hating consumers?

-2