r/HVAC•
hendem

Am I the victim of Furnace fraud?

I used to live in an upscale condo, and after buying a house started renting it out. My tenant calls me and tell me the furnace is on the fritz. I go over and take a look. I lived there for 8 years and never had a problem with it. The furnace is a Carrier 58PAV07 that was installed in 10-1998. The issue was it would start up the burner for a few moments and then go out. It would cycle like this for a while before it would quit.

Not sure what to do and not wanting to leave my tenant without heat I called the HVAC company that installed the furnace in the first place. I expected to get a voice mail and would need to call them during work hours the next day, but nope they answered and said they would have a tech over in about an hour.

I needed to leave but my tenant was there. An hour later I get a call from the tech and he says "Oh it is a flame sensor. Easy fix, will cost 280". Ripoff I know but whatever $280 probably won't have an issue with the furnace for years to come. Then a few minutes later I get another call. "Your heat exchanger is cracked".

What!? He said "You need to come look at this, right way". After lots of insisting that I'll need to get a second opinion on it he convinces me to go over there. He shows me how one of the burners goes a different color and gets much larger than the rest once the blower starts. He says my heat exchanger is shot, I need a new furnace and it is unsafe. He turns off the gas to my furnace and sends a sales guy over. After some back and forth we settle on $1700 for a new furnace. (A number I was not very happy with I know HVAC markups are obscene). I set it up to be installed on the next day on the condition that the furnace isn't any longer under warranty. The salesperson says "Our company installed this furnace and while we don't sell Carrier anymore there is no way this unit has warranty and Carrier warranties don't transfer between owners anyways."

So the next morning I call Carrier and I give them the serial number for the unit. They inform me that the heat exchanger is under warranty. I halt the furnace install. Carrier is very insistent to me that I must use a contractor on their list on their website. Which is my area is a list of exactly ten. I call them all and only two return my call. Of the two one quoted me on the phone $1050 in labor to replace the heat exchanger. The other says they should look at it and confirm the heat exchanger. This contractor does a CO test and says that their detectable CO being emitted from the furnace, 8 ppm with a starting reading of zero. According to them, bad enough to warrant fixing, but not necessarily deadly. They quote me the same $1050 in labor to do the heat exchanger, or $1200 for a new furnace. Mean while I speak to the original HVAC contractor and they offer to replace the heat exchanger for $800 even. I say I'm leaning towards just replacing the heat exchanger, and the second contractor gets back to me and says they can't get the part for three weeks. So I say fine lets just do the whole furnace for $1200.

So today I go over to my condo and the furnace is sitting in the hall while they are about 75% though installing the new one. I use this an opportunity to inspect the heat exchanger myself, and I can't find a crack or defect in it anywhere. Except for one issue. A sheet metal screw near the burner that was burning abnormally is missing, leaving a whole though the heat exchanger. How did that happen?

So is it likely that the first HVAC tech could have removed the screw in an attempt to get me to buy a new furnace and is it possible the second HVAC company didn't notice or didn't want to tell me?

TL;DR; Two HVAC companies looked at my furnace. Both agreed that the heat exchanger is bad. The second was way less expensive than the first. I inspected old furnace and only found a missing screw in the heat exchanger.

Posted Nov 24, 2014, 11:30 PM UTC · edited

061
Can_not_Be_RepairedLicensed Contractor: HVAC|Plumbing•

No about the screw. There wouldn't be one in the heat exchanger. However if his CO detector found any CO then yes, you need to replace it.

5
hendemOP•

Each heat exchanger has four sheet metal screws the hold it in place on each end (intake and exhaust). Removing a single screw leaves a hole right through the heat exchanger. (Crap design if you ask me)

1
Falinman•

This is how they are all done. The hole just goes into the airstream, not into an area of the heat exchanger that would have combustion byproducts. The screws sometimes back themselves out by themselves over the course of many heating and cooling cycles. I've seen this hundreds of times, and will normally just put the screw back in. I really wouldn't consider this a cause of the bad heat exchanger.

4
hendemOP•

To bad we didn't try putting it back in before the whole furnace was replaced, but it sounds like it wasn't likely the problem anyways.

1
Falinman•

No, it wasn't the problem, but I really do understand how you feel. At least you had it confirmed with another company. No one wants to see Old Reliable bite the dust, but it happens. Good luck with your new furnace.

3
GoblinMarauder•

Theres no screws that go through the heat exchanger. Your probably looking at something else that is attaching it.

3
hendemOP•

With the 58pav070 I know what my eye and hands saw. There are four screws directly though the heat exchanger to hold it in place on each end intake and exhaust. I tried to google a photo. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Carrier-Bryant-Heat-Exchanger-Cell-Kit-320723-751/301388663614?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3D0600ef591721426f92e866761c16977a%26pid%3D100011%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D270939600388 On this listing you can see the screw holes in the photo.

-1
GoblinMarauder•

Combustion air doesn't go near any of those indents.

3
hendemOP•

Well I hope you are right, but I believe on that model the tops of the screws are pretty much in a bath of fire when the furnace is running.

Not trying to argue just understand, but consider this image: http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7TBRscN-AtU/maxresdefault.jpg If you where to remove one of the screws on the heat exchanger intake, could that cause combustion gasses go where they shouldn't?

-1
dustinatorparts changer extradonaire•

The chances of that being enough air to screw up the furnace are probably pretty slim imo

5
dustinatorparts changer extradonaire•

I doubt those would have any bearing on the flame color and size but I could be wrong. I'd hate to sound like a broken record but like the other guys said if there's any co detected it should be replaced.

3
hendemOP•

The thing was I got the furnace running (by fussing with it) and it heated up the condo before the tech came and I watched the burners and everything seemed completely normal. Then after he comes boom there is this huge problem, and visible issue with the one burner. My concern is he intentionally removed the screw to intentionally cause the problem.

1
IoncehadafourLbPoop•

If a doctor shows me an x Ray it looks like an x ray. I don't see the hairline fracture until he points it out to my untrained eye

4
dustinatorparts changer extradonaire•

I can't say without seeing it first hand. Sometimes an old furnace can be a pain in the ass. Unfortunately there are techs and companies that do shit like that.

3
Dehno34Tech•

That screw would not cause the flame issue.

1
katamba1•

If any CO is found it definitely needs replaced. Does sound like the first contractor was trying to pull a fast one with their pricing though

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
hendemOP•

How much do you think it should cost to just swap out a 66,000 btu, 80% furnace with the most similar model?

1
price1869•

Anything under $2k including labor is pretty fair. Furnaces aren't that cheap. Neither is the work to put them in, the warranty, the time spent estimating, etc.

What exactly do you do for work, and are you okay with people telling you how much they think your work is worth? Most contractors are honest and just trying to make a living.

6
IoncehadafourLbPoop•

4 grand in my area

2
CunderscoreF•

Damn, $4k for a 80%?

3
hendemOP•

If I would have gotten a quotes for that much, I would ordered one online, and would be installing it myself. Regulations, safety, and licences be damned.

0
hendemOP•

Fair enough but I'm 110% ok with telling HVAC contractors that they aren't worth more per hour than a lawyer.

-1
price1869•

I guess that really depends on how hot(cold) it gets in your area.

FWIW - I'm now a software consultant. I get paid 3x what I made as an HVACR tech. Being an HVACR tech was much more difficult and required a higher level of knowledge.

8
jpage89commercial tech/york hater•

And hopefully the HVAC techs you're wiling to pay are worth it. You're not paying only for parts and labor. You're paying us for what we know. Just as we would pay a lawyer for what they know. How's the central heating and air on cloud 9?

5
hvacbandguy•

I'm probably biased but I'm going to respectfully disagree with this statement.

2
Dehno34Tech•

You straight up sound like a dick. Tell the next one that comes to fix something for you that, then freeze your ass off when you fuck something up. No one will feel sorry for you, and no one will want to help you. Good luck and I hope your tenants don't get killed because of your stupidity.

1
bakeandsteakon•

It's all really your word against his. For carrier to warranty the heat exchanger they're most definatly going to want the old one back for testing before they cut a check to the contractor for labor. Its quite the gamble to fuck with warranty services, you might get a few replacements but if you warranty too many heat exchangers where they aren't defective somebody's going to start asking questions

2
hendemOP•

That is why I found it very strange that the company that initially diagnosed the problem was willing to replace the heat exchanger for less then either of the warranty authorized places.

1
hy_quipWholesaler Extraordinaire•

No, you just sound like a victim. If you're going to turn to this sub for help maybe I don't know, don't shit on these guys' trade...

2
jpage89commercial tech/york hater•

Did you pull the whole heat exchanger out? Look along every seam and scrape the rust lightly with a flat head? Even a pinhole is enough to cause a big issue. 16+ years on a heat exchanger is pretty good, on most commercial units you're lucky to get 12, just changed one plus an inducer assembly and burner assembly on a two year old york, all over a hole half the size of a penny. Could be a clogged exchanger too, how often did you have it cleaned? Monthly filter changes? Clean the sensor every couple years if not every year?

1
gamblingman2•

Seriously a york? What happened to cause it to fail prematurely? I agree with you, over a decade is good; 16 years is awesome.

2
jpage89commercial tech/york hater•

The inducer failed and the roll out switch didn't open is my only thought, and it heated up enough to burn a hole in the exchanger. I've been changing quite a few Yorks lately actually, and how I miss changing carrier exchangers.

2
hendemOP•

Once the furnace was removed I have unimpeded access to the entire heat exchanger. There was zero rust, some minor discoloration which looked normal. No viable cracks or whole anywhere, side from the screw whole where the screw was missing. It prior manufacturing engineering experience made it pretty obvious that the heat exchanger is made form two very cheap pieces of stamped galvanized steel crimped together and was never hermetically sealed.

1
jpage89commercial tech/york hater•

Maybe there's a misunderstanding on what the heat exchanger is? They're usually sealed pretty tightly, and there's usually more than one plate, or tube if it's a tubed exchanger. I wish you had gotten a picture of it.

1
Dehno34Tech•

You sound like you already have your mind made up on the HVAC trade. Yea, we have markup. We also drive to your house using company gas and company vehicles with insurance that need paid for. That money doesn't magically pop out of the tailpipe.

You sound like you're an engineer or someone else who knows everything, so why don't you fix it yourself? Put the screw back in and install the old furnace. We're all thiefs anyway, might as well do everything yourself.

1
hendemOP•

I have no issues with the trade. In my areas there are a stunning number of rotten companies who screw their customers and their techs.

1
Mrheatmechanical•

Carrier furnaces have issues with their heat exchangers. There is a class action lawsuit on their faulty heat exchaners. HVAC companies are not ripping you off. Crack on the heat exchaner is not visible to naked eye. Only Heat Exchanger Integrity test could determine the hair line cracks. Diagnosis were correct. On the cracked Heat Exchanger, flame will shoot back or start flying the second blower comes on. mrheatmechanical.blogspot.com

1
hendemOP•

Yes the furnace I replaced wasn't part of the class action (I checked).
I'm glad I shopped around before I replaced it. I saved about a grand by doing so.

1
PoWn3d_0704Up and Coming HVAC Tech•

There are no screws that go into the heat exchanger. CO2 in the airstream means you have a bad HE. Sounds like tough luck, but I don't think you are getting screwed.

0
IoncehadafourLbPoop•

Co2 is carbon dioxide

2
PoWn3d_0704Up and Coming HVAC Tech•

Oops

0