Source
r/linux•
nullnullnull

damn you linux I'm leaving you! MY RANT

pretext - my DE just broke after an update this is my rant

over the last few years I've slowly moved away from windows over to the linux world, at first it was just experimenting with linux inside a VM. Over time I got comfortable enough to put it on real metal.

Its the small things that over time build and build until you can't take the bs anymore..

At first you don't mind fixing things, getting your hands dirty, spending hours/days tinkering/fixing.

When you are not fixing things you are changing things (because you can) again days sometimes turn into weeks.

Sometimes you just waste time trying new stuff, new distro's (trying to find that "perfect" distro, that never really exists).

over time, all my machines had linux installed, I moved away from experimenting to doing actual work and using it on a daily basis.

Now doing work means time is money, stability and performance issues really hurt, I just need sh*t to work, I don't have the time to deal with buggy crap when working.

Sure productivity (software development and infrastructure/servers/devops) is a joy to work with in the linux world. This stuff just works, if something blows up its because I've screwed up. This I like.

However when working, the DE is the worst pile of sh*t and weakest link, and I've tried most of them, and used a few over time.

All I ask is a stable, reliable, nice consistent and clean polished non buggy DE, and currently this does not exist.

I've been settled with gnome-shell (with tweaks), and all was well until two days ago.

This is my other grip, the OUT OF BOX (OOB) experience is utter bs for all DE's in linux, I don't want to waste time tweaking a DE, it should be great OOB, even after tweaking it still feels incomplete or just not polished..

Look at windows or mac, the DE covers all grounds that one should expect for a professional DE:

  • OOB Excellent
  • Consistent HIG
  • Fast
  • Stable

Anyway, I'm this close to going over to a mac, I'm just tired of buggy and incomplete DE's...

I'll probably fix the issue after wasting a few more days, then get back to work while I mutter under my breath....

Posted Nov 26, 2014, 10:49 AM UTC

047
[deleted]•

Sometimes you just waste time trying new stuff, new distro's (trying to find that "perfect" distro, that never really exists).

Do you have a moment to talk about our lord and savior, Arch linux?

6
nullnullnullOP•

sigh I knew one day I would walk that path...

1
uh-hum•

I just left Arch. Having a full blown DE like KDE on Arch increases the chances of a bug that you need to address showing up somewhere. VLC busted a few months back and took about a month to get fixed because the package maintainer was on vacation. I don't fault the maintainer for going on vacation - it's just that bleeding edge can intefer with your routine.

Now, I'm on Kubuntu 14.04. The idea was to have less worries so I can focus on developing. However - Kubuntu has issues, too. One week out and a motherfucking kernel panic. I didn't have a single kernel panic for two years of Arch's update the kernel every other day way of doing things. Fucking Ubuntu. I stopped using Ubuntu over 5 years ago and, one week in - stable is still kernel panicking like it's Fedora.

So what's left? Slackware? You would have to deal with its - "you're own your own" style. Maybe Debian stable with Chrooted dev environments? I could have chosen OpenSuse stable over Kubuntu but, I was already very familiar with Debian/Ubuntu.

In short, like you - I'm very frustrated now. I have so little time and interest for dealing with linux desktop woes. I haven't listed all of my Arch and Kubuntu problems but, I think that most heavy users are familiar with these type of issues.

Edit: Why does KDE (Kubuntu, at least) make me worry about properly configuring an outgoing mail server if I've just entered a Gmail account as my incoming? It should just assume I want to use the my Gmail account's SMTP server and force me to configure something different from that typical scenario. I had to spend a bunch of time learning about SMTP security to understand Kontact's cofiguration demands.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

4
nullnullnullOP•

Yes tried KDE, I like the new "Breeze theme" direction but still feels incomplete, way too much customization..

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
uh-hum•

I just left Arch. Having a full blown DE like KDE on Arch increases the chances of a bug that you need to address showing up somewhere. VLC busted a few months back and took about a month to get fixed because the package maintainer was on vacation. I don't fault the maintainer for going on vacation - it's just that bleeding edge can intefer with your routine.

Now, I'm on Kubuntu 14.04. The idea was to have less worries so I can focus on developing. However - Kubuntu has issues, too. One week out and a motherfucking kernel panic. I didn't have a single kernel panic for two years of Arch's update the kernel every other day way of doing things. Fucking Ubuntu. I stopped using Ubuntu over 5 years ago and, one week in - stable is still kernel panicking like it's Fedora.

So what's left? Slackware? You would have to deal with its - "you're own your own" style. Maybe Debian stable with Chrooted dev environments? I could have chosen OpenSuse stable over Kubuntu but, I was already very familiar with Debian/Ubuntu.

In short, like you - I'm very frustrated now. I have so little time and interest for dealing with linux desktop woes. I haven't listed all of my Arch and Kubuntu problems but, I think that most heavy users are familiar with these type of issues.

Edit: Why does KDE (Kubuntu, at least) make me worry about properly configuring an outgoing mail server if I've just entered a Gmail account as my incoming? It should just assume I want to use the my Gmail account's SMTP server and force me to configure something different from that typical scenario. I had to spend a bunch of time learning about SMTP security to understand Kontact's cofiguration demands.

1
Jukibom•

All I ask is a stable, reliable, nice consistent and clean polished non buggy DE

Oh, is that all?

3
nullnullnullOP•

Mac and Windows DE have achieved this, why can't the FOSS community seem to get their act together? too busing FORKING around...

1
gaggra•

Mac and Windows DE have achieved this

Neither have achieved this by a long shot. You're suffering from a "grass is greener" mentality.

9
nullnullnullOP•

The grass is greener, not perfect but much better by a mile.

2
fjonk•

I switched from using Linux to OS X as my desktop around three years ago and I wish I'd done it sooner. According to me OS X has a stable, reliable, nice consistent and clean polished non buggy DE. What is it that you think is the problem with OS X?

1
m1kl3•

I had the same experience. 15+ year linux user, sick and tired of things just not working, breaking on updates etc. Bought a mac and never looked back. OSX is certified UNIX and everything... just works (also superior hardware ;))

5
nullnullnullOP•

The only sensible and truthful comment I've read.

I like linux, its great for dev and servers, but unless developers actually admit there are issues rather then get defensive, I don't see things changing :(

2
set_it_to_wumbo•

Except that windows apps have no consistency at all.

5
sgthoppy•

Neither do Linux apps, in my experience.

1
set_it_to_wumbo•

Well that's why you don't use a GNOME app in KDE or vice versa. If you just pick an ecosystem and stick with it you're fine.

1
Jukibom•

Because it's a really hard problem. Stability is difficult enough but design polish and consistency is something even a company as large as Google struggled with on Android for the last 6 years! It's only very recently that things have started to come together. Microsoft is still struggling with it! Apple kinda-sorta got there by focusing almost entirely on it for a decade.

You can either help out or whine about it like a petulant child but only one of those options will solve anything.

3
gondur•

You can either help out or whine about it like a petulant child but only one of those options will solve anything.

But the linux community seems to be overly conservative on required architectural changes to REALLY fix these problems & decided the last 20 years to shot down existing technical solutions. For instance see the uproar on systemd which will really consolidate the ecosystem. Or see how Autopackage was shot down, while solving serious ecosystem problems.

2
k-zed•

Linux has never been a good desktop OS, but it used to be a good hacking/development OS. The adoption of systemd has ruined the latter, but we haven't shown a lot of progress on the former so far...

1
[deleted]•

Not the developers fault you're too stupid to use their software. The stuff works so well for so many others, it must be your fault. If you're not tech savvy enough just use something else, no need to force yourself to use linux if it's not for you.

0
nullnullnullOP•

I'm a developer myself, I know sh*t buggy code when I literally see it, perhaps I expect better?

BUGS are 100% the developers fault, only a bad developer blames the end user, this sounds like a typical excuse bad developers give:

  • You are using it wrong
  • It works for me
  • Its a bug in the compiler/ or some other stack etc..

and a million other excuses.

2
idoithere•

ummm, I do not understand the context of your rant?

Distro?

DE?

I usually dont recommend distros like arch because of this problem. Stable out box experience is not something that should be undervalued. However, I usually point people to two distros such as Ubuntu and Opensuse because their stability is quite good and the distro updates are infrequent enough that it wont feel like a chore

0
RyanDwyer•

The 5-years-ago me could relate to you. I ran Ubuntu, dist-upgrading through each version and even switching to unstable. Boy, did I get my hands dirty. Random updates would break grub, X and drivers. I tried to use programs like Wine. Some of it was my own fault, like running sudo startx which would create root-owned files in my home directory.

These days, I only ever upgrade by doing a fresh install and I only run software that's marked as stable. I don't use Wine at all. Instead, I run my Windows stuff in a VM. When I do upgrade, I rsync my home folder to an external drive and rsync it back after I've upgraded. There are a few other things in /etc that I back up and restore too.

I've tried different desktop environments before. I dislike any DE that groups windows on the task bar, such as Unity. I settled on KDE. My trick is to use the DE as little as possible. I have keyboard shortcuts set up to launch all my favourite programs with Win + some letter of the alphabet. I have easy shortcuts for closing, maximising and unmaximising windows, so I don't even need to click the buttons at the top of each window. My usage of KDE consists of:

  • Opening the KDE menu to sleep or shut down
  • Clicking on programs in the task bar
  • Changing volume via the icon in bottom right
  • Looking at the clock (I have it display the date too, and seconds)
  • Opening the calendar by clicking the clock

That's it. Oh, and I turned off all the window animations to make everything as fast as possible.

You said Windows and Mac have excellent DE's. I think the opposite. In Windows, I can't scroll using the mouse wheel in an unfocussed window. I can't move a window by Alt + dragging. I shut down Windows machines using Win + R and typing shutdown -h because I can't find the shut down option. And don't get me started on Metro... On the Mac side of things, I still haven't figured out how to maximise a window.

There's no such thing as a perfect DE. Every DE has its flaws. Just find one that you can tolerate and meets your needs.

3
Codemonkey7842•

Win + R, followed by cmd + enter. Then "shutdown /?" will give you the help that you need.

"shutdown /t xx /s" whill shut down the computer in x seconds. I think x = 0 could work for instant shutdown. It could also be x = "now" that will work. I vaguely remember writing something like that before but I don't want to shut down my machine right now.

"shutdown /a" will abort a scheduled shutdown. Can be pretty useful sometimes. You know when you have a message you cannot close, informing you that your computer will shutdown in x seconds.

If you want to though you can even upen a "shutdown GUI" by using "shutdown /i".

Hopefully this was helpful. It should work in at least windows XP/7/8 and the various windows server versions.

I'm primarily a Linux user though but I have to use Windows at work.

2
nullnullnullOP•

I like your honesty mate, better then most of the other defensive comments.

1
kreiger•

So your misgivings are about Gnome, not Linux.

I have the same problem, after an update Gnome stopped giving applications access to the display.

After fighting with it for two days i gave up and switched to XFCE, which has its own issues, but at least it's not dedicated to sucking and breaking by default.

2
joeka•

Well, switch back then. I've heard some people like Windows. OS X looks nice and has bash and other nice things you are used to by now.

Or stay and figure out what works for you, you don't have to keep using the same or one of the popular or any DE at all.

1
[deleted]•

Just stop using a desktop environment and become more productive and comfortable with a tiling window manager (as opposited to a stacking window manager (which is what is used in all desktop environments.))

Also consistent human interface guildlines are overrated, and perhaps even harmful.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
nullnullnullOP•

I like unity and have used it, but feels like a such a memory hog, when I do a search, it just lags, what on earth is the system doing when you hit search?? it randomly slows down. If the performance issues and memory situation was fixed then fine its a good candidate.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
LinuxLeafFan•

Try XFCE, it has the best OOB experience, is consistent, fast and stable. I also question what distro you are using if you're running in to stability issues.

If you are looking for a stable, clean, non-linux OS, I would recommend OSX.

1
Headbite•

Switch to a long term support version of ubuntu and you'll have 5 years of support. The ongoing maintenance is virtually zero.

1
azalynx•

Without really knowing specifically what your DE issues were, it's difficult to help. I'm expecting some of the nastier things (like HiDPI scaling, VSync, etc) to get resolved once Wayland comes around.

There's also some new stuff happening in the graphics stack, like there will be a new OpenGL ABI which should make installing proprietary drivers easier (I personally despise proprietary drivers so I'm not too bothered by the status quo, but I'm sure others will appreciate the change). Also, there's Radeon's new driver strategy where they'll share the same kernel module even for the proprietary driver. These things will likely improve the desktop user experience somewhat, at least that's what I'm hoping.

You should give Linux another 2 years or so at least before you give up on it, a lot of crazy desktop-related stuff is happening now, so maybe things will improve for you. Oh, there's also systemd which might bring some improvements as well.

1
ckim44•

Do you know what caused the DE to crash? What were you doing when it crashed?

1
[deleted]•

Great job, never seen that many generalizations in one single post before!

If you don't like linux then just switch, use whatever you like. Linux just ain't yo thing.

0
nullnullnullOP•

Linux is not the issue, the DE is the damn issue...

2
[deleted]•

That makes no difference in the end.

2
gondur•

It is the concept how Linux is put together, the architecture as "OS", which is the problem. I would argue the underlaying centralized distro concept (in contrast to an OS/platform concept) is the inherent problem... see this Molnar essay or this essay from a Mozilla developer.

PS: a more general list

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
LDL2•

Idk for what you are asking cinnamon works for me. It is a prerequisite for me having any distro for that reason. Sure gnome is a little prettier and my deep in is a little more fun but both miss the mark on the above complaints and if I have it with those I can always do work on it while they break.

1
bwalk•

If you want stability, don't update (except for security updates). It's that simple. I really don't get why people are surprised if they switch out a major part of the OS on the fly and then wonder, why stuff has hiccups. Windows and OSX are stable, because they don't update integral parts of your software except major releases. And guess what, stuff breaks there too.

0
gondur•

No, you can have both. It is only a downside of the distro focussed linux architecture that we currently can't have stability AND bleeding edge apps: the solution is platform approach (like Android or MacOS) or half-rolling release, which separates between core and end-user apps.

More on this here.

1
the-autistic-child•

No, I'm sorry, Linux is not about having an "out of the box" "ready to go" "Betty crocker, instant meal" desktop environment for the end user. It's not, never will be, never should be. If it were, there wouldn't be a million different flavors, of the many different distributions around.

It's about freedom of choice, it's about compiling code, It's not about the end user coming first. It's about building a community that is empowered to fix things themselves when things go wrong. I admit, when I first took up learning Linux, the learning curve seemed damn near vertical. But because I fought long and hard, day and night, moments of frustration, and never gave up, is the reason I can say these things to you and mean every word.

Please don't give up over something as silly as a desktop environment, those come by the dozen. I never use the default DE of any distribution I install these days, I install a basic console setup, and build it up to the desktop I know and love. Granted, this takes knowledge and experience in such things, but if you stop now you'll never get to that place.

-1
Spirit_of_Stallman•

Oh no!!!

Community broken without you!!!

PS: who U are? what are U do for linux?

PPS: bb

-3
nullnullnullOP•

Yaay another retarded comment.

2