SPOILERS Who killed the previous Winter Lady?

We learn in Skin Game from Molly that Maeve had ignored her duties for about 150 years, the duration of her tenure as Winter Lady, which puts the previous Winter Lady's death at between 1860 and 1865 (150 years and just over) obviously on either a solstice or Halloween in those years.

A WoJ has it that the last Winter Lady was undone by a Starborn, who was that Starborn? If they can be identified then we may have some idea as to what Starborn actually means/does.

One perhaps related/unrelated thought is that Skin Game also introduced the English Prisoner. Could he be that Starborn? A Victorian era Englishman would be more in keeping than an Arthurian era Englishman as regards the language used. Perhaps an additional clue? Demonreach would be the logical place to hideout as pennance for killing the Winter Lady.

Can we identify a historical figure who might have been a Wizard based upon this scanty information?

Whodunit?

Posted Jan 10, 2015, 5:36 AM UTC

3127
Freshenstein•

I suspect that it was Mrs. Peacock in the Kitchen with the rope.

31
TellurionOP•

Don't be silly Harry has the rope in his kitchen in case an ogre (or Susan) comes visiting.

12
TheBW•

You forgot that he doesn't have a kitchen any more.

Or Susan.

38
blackzao•

Too many feels, man.

12
Quothefool•

It's about 7:51 am where I am, and that's about 200% more feels than I was ready for today.

12
TellurionOP•

One candidate, Danial Dunglas Home, look up the Wikipedia entry, his 'retirement' and 'death' would match, the claims made about him fall into the category 'Wizard' (or possibly 'Charlatan') but this would be the type of suspect.

There is also a very nice Dredenish photo of him, could that be Bob?

17
poizan42•

Woah. This is almost too perfect.

13
TellurionOP•

Yes almost as if a fiendish mastermind has plotted this all out.

Or an even more fiendish mastermind has decided to crowd source plot elements and get his readers to do the research.

Jim is a hugely eclectic reader as demonstrated by the connected plot elements already revealed.

Very much a proto Dresden, open about his powers.

3
i_a1m_to_misbehaveParkour!•

Maeve ignored her duties for 150 years - you're presuming that she had been neglecting them throughout her entire tenure as the Winter Lady. I deem it more likely that she's older than that.

16
TellurionOP•

Actually no, apparently WoJ has Maeve and Sarissa's father as Franz Schubert 1797- 1828 composer of Der Erlkonig (The Erl King) and Winterreisse (The Winter Journey) (which almost certainly drew Mab's attention). Presuming a conception in or around 1827 that would have left Maeve no older than her mid thirties when she assumed the Winter Ladies Mantle if my original assumption is correct.

Jim has given us a timeframe of conception and death of Maeve, it must be for some reason relevant to the narrative.

14
i_a1m_to_misbehaveParkour!•

Heh. Cool. I'm sadly uninformed as to WoJ, so thanks.

3
smilesbot•

Aww, there there! :)

1
i_a1m_to_misbehaveParkour!•

I know. Unhappy days. I've read pretty much all of his books enough times, though, so missing out on WoJ doesn't bother me too much.

2
massassi•

do we have that timeline?

Der Erlkonig we essentially a rewrite of earlier works. and so probably shouldn't count as "original"

some of the other stuff - such as Faust are probably right in there for canon - or at least minor poetic licence. My presumption was that he would have gotten mixed up with the sidhe well before he started writing - since they are obviously an inspiration of his. so 1813-1815 is probably much closer time of conception

1
tutethrowaway•

Here's a bunch of possibles from my lists:

People from the Specific Time:

Witches, Mediums, and other Occultists:

Marie Laveau, the Voodoo Queen of New Orleans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Laveau

Helena Blavatsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Blavatsky

Trance Medium Paschal Beverly Randolph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paschal_Beverly_Randolph

Irish Witch, Biddy Early http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biddy_Early

Moll Anthony (though she's more of a healer) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moll_Anthony

Charles Godfrey Leland or Maddalena "Leland told a story that shortly after his birth his nurse took him to the family attic and performed a ritual involving a Bible, a key, a knife, lighted candles, money and salt to ensure a long life as a "scholar and a wizard", a fact which his biographers have commented upon as foreshadowing his interest in folk traditions and magic."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Godfrey_Leland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aradia,_or_the_Gospel_of_the_Witches

Alicia Franch (given how long wizards live for) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Howard

The Hunchback from Carmilla

Edwin Drood (Drude is the name of a German witch/spirit)

A Youngish Moriarty (maybe he used the Dynamics of an Asteroid to crush her...)

Mangiafuoco used some evil puppets to kill her http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mangiafuoco

The Bloody Benders (probably a bit late, but you can never be sure) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bloody_Benders

... And the rest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_George_Hohman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliphas_Levi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Barrett_(occultist)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guido_von_List

Werewolves:

Manuel Blanco Romasanta; the Spanish Lobishome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Blanco_Romasanta

A Wendigo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendigo

The Were-Rabbit from "Die Geschichte von dem wilden Jäger": "In it, a hare steals a hunter's musket and eyeglasses and begins to hunt the hunter." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Struwwelpeter

Vampires:

Ludwig the Bloodsucker: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_the_Bloodsucker

James Brown, the President's Vampire: http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2012/06/a-u-s-presidents-real-life-vampire-connection/

A Snallygaster: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snallygaster

Things what should not be:

John A. B. C. Smith: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_That_Was_Used_Up

People who weren't from the time but Who Would Have been around if they were magic:

Look, there's lots - if someone's reputed to be a vampire and they die in 1792, there's no reason to think they did. Mary Shelly's Mortal Immortal would have still been around and Frankenstein's Monster could have been still going ... The Wandering Jew would have been wandering about... Dracula, of course, would have probably been moping in his castle, but he would have been around - he didn't get to London until 1887-1893... Poe's Morella and Ligea could have kept on body-hopping and stuck around till 1860... St Germain, of course...

As to what a Star Born is, maybe it's similar to a Moonchild: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moonchild_%28novel%29

There is an HG Well story called "The Star Begotten"; which (if I'm remembering right) is a sort-of tie-in with War of the Worlds - the idea that a humanoid in a different environment would evolve into something else - the tentacled vampires from Mars.

There you have it - early scout from Mars sucked the blood out of her.

5
TellurionOP•

You missed out a time-travelling Jack The Ripper.

3
AdShea•

But we all know that Sebastian is being kept on ice by the Vorlons.

7
TellurionOP•

Yes, where do you think that is?

Vorlons are actually Angels you know. Kosh is actually Uriel in disguise.

3
447irradiatedhobos•

Unfortunately, the list of people and events that could be related is unhelpfully large. We simply don't know enough to say much of anything, there are just too many variables.

I rather doubt that our lovely English ice cube had anything to do with the death, considering that it's unlikely that the perpetrator of such a deed would be in the Well, rather than in the grave with a pound of ice where his brain used to be, courtesy of Mama Mab. Moreover, I don't think it makes sense at all from someone to be hiding out in the Well. It seems that only the Warden can access the depths of Demonreach. I can't imagine that anyone else could even open the stairwell, let alone make themselves a nice cozy crystal to hang out in. You have to be major-league Bad News to earn a spot in the Well, and I don't think that capping a Sidhe queen quite merits it. It strikes me that the English Prisoner probably called himself "someone who needs to be [in the Well]" more out of irony than contrition.

As far as what a Starborn is, I'm inclined to believe that they are people who can resist and effect the Outsiders. We've only had scraps of information about Starborns so far, but every time it has come up it has been through a character who is either infected by or clued in about Nemesis and the Outsiders, unless I'm forgetting something.

4
TheSeldomShaken•

Interestingly, 1860 - 1865 is the time frame for the American Civil War.

2
TellurionOP•

An interesting thought, whose side were summer and Winter on? Was Natnan Bedford Forrest have been the Winter Knight?

1
angel_caido_7•

I think the previous Winter Lady was one of the Morrigans, it was like the Irish version of Hecate or the Fates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Morrígan

1

Now I'm thinking of The Morrigan from the Iron Druid Chronicles. She'd make an excellent Winter Lady.

2