In 1996, Ken Griffey Jr posted an MLB high 9.7 WAR, yet finished 4th in the AL MVP voting.
baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1996.sht...
baseball-reference.comPosted Dec 14, 2015, 7:14 PM UTC
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baseball-reference.comWAR wasn't a thing yet
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I'd love to read some pieces that had him leading for MVP. I bet they'd be pretty interesting.
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I'm kind of curious what the justification was.
Juan-Gon was 8th in AVG, 5th in HRs, 2nd in RBI, didn't play a defensive position, and he one of several candidates on a playoff team.
Even by old-school accounting, Gonzalez wasn't the best MVP choice.
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RBI on a playoff team. Used to be the surest way to an MVP.
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It also helped that his biggest competition (A-Rod) lost some votes to Griffey Jr and probably would have won if it wasn't for that.
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Now I wonder what the highest WAR is in a season for a pair of teammates. I should probably exclude Ruth from that conversation otherwise he's going to show up a dozen times.
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Sabermetrics didn't really gain prominence in the baseball community until the 21st century so using WAR is kind of hard to point these things out, especially during the steroid era when gaudy numbers were all over.
The bigger question is why the fuck Juan Gonzalez won it over so many more deserving players. Griffey and A-Rod, McGwire, Belle and Thome, and Brady Anderson.
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Because he had a 144 RBI and the rangers won the division
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Yeah, but Albert Belle had more HR and RBI and also played on a division winner.
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A lot of voters didn't like Albert Belle for personal reasons. It was enough of a thing to be in the first paragraph on his wiki page. Lots of 2nd and 3rds but he never won an MVP.
However, his combative personality, marked by occasional angry outbursts, created a reputation that was intimidating to those who covered him in the news media.
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Wasn't Gonzalez a bit recalcitrant himself?
EDIT: I guess it's hard to out asshole Albert Belle.
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wasn't that the year he tried to run over trick or treaters who egged his house? Also, Bernard Gilkey with an 8 WAR season, wow. And everyone hit 40 homers.
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And this is why we complain about voting.
Always complain.
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RBIs, the end. RBIs were the WAR of the 90s.
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I know the voters weren't checking the player's WPA (Win Probability Added) totals, but each of the players ahead of Griffey in voting also finished way ahead in WPA so you could argue they had a much bigger impact on the games
I place a lot more importance on WPA than most people in MVP voting but thats one argument you could make for them
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WPA has a similar problem to RBI's - depends way too much on what your teammates do.
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I don't see that as a problem.
Until the MVP award is renamed the Best Player in a Context Independent Vacuum Award, I'm fine with voters using the impact of a player on his teammates as a criteria. The sequencing and timing of a player's hits has a big impact on run scoring and winning games so I don't see a reason why that shouldn't be considered when choosing the MVP
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It looks like almost all the players in the top 9 have the same exact offensive numbers, with an OPS a bit over 1.000. The only exceptions are Palmeiro who is well below and McGwire who is way above. In spite of this the WAR varies significantly. I have to imagine this is due to defense and positional adjustment. Even if defense was undervalued back then I still think people understood how much harder it was to find offensive production at certain positions like SS and CF. I'm surprised A-Rod didn't win because I remember that year and even in the age of offensive boom times the idea of a shortstop hitting .358 with 36 home runs was mind boggling, especially considering he was 20 years old. It should of come down to him or Griffey - and they probably split each others vote somewhat. Juan Gone had no business winning that year, especially considering he only played 134 games.
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he won by 3 points too...
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Looking at all those offensive numbers is so mind boggling when comparing them to today's numbers.
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14 players with an OPS of at least 1.000, and we had 3 this season
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Yeah they don't make hitters like they used to.../s
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Why is it ridiculous? The players were illegally cheating. The league just made some smart adjustments.
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Their numbers are tainted. If they weren't that effective they wouldn't have used them. Like it or not, you don't know what would have happened had they never used steroids
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If anything a juiced ball was more likely behind the offensive explosion. Just my opinion though.
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Those amphetamines...
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I really started getting into baseball in the mid to late-90s, and it messes me up to this day. I always have to remind myself that something like an .800 OPS is actually pretty darn good these days, rather than a cutoff point for an average hitter.
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Look at those numbers, then go look at the yearly stats for Pedro and Maddux. As ridiculous as hitters were back then, being able to put up Greinke like numbers against those hitters is just hard to fathom.
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I remember the Indians one year had 5 players with 100+ RBIs, 3 players with 30+ homers, 6 guys with 20+ homers and pretty much everyone in their lineup had an OPS above .800. They were so stacked that they had Richie Sexson coming off the bench.
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This year's version of the Jay's?
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I know. 75 stolen bases!?!?
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When you're old like me numbers like that are normal and current pitching stats are mind boggling.
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Also that year, Paul Molitor had 9 homers and 113 RBI. What a weird looking stat line.
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Dude was a doubles machine.
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Cocaine is a hell of a drug.
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One of only two seasons since 1950 with single digit homers and triple digit RBIs (the other is Tom Herr, 1985).
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This stat makes me think of the James Loney days. Would slug just under .400 and put up 90 RBIs.
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Even though his WAR was slightly lower, I would have given it to AROD for that season. This is coming from a dude that absolutely adored Griffey growing up. ARODs numbers across the board were just ridiculous that year. Really may be his best overall year.
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For the first 123 games of the season (or a minor league length season, which is as much as he'd ever played before), he batted .376 with 35 HR.
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I agree. A-Rod was amazing that season. I think that A-Rod and Griffey split the Seattle writers' ballots for 1st and 2nd place, and that was enough to give the award to Gonzalez over Rodriguez.
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People get so hung up on WAR. For Christ sakes look at McGwire that year. His wRC+ was 190. Griffey and Juan Gone were nearly identical in offense, and really, Griffey WAR all came from defense that year which should only really be used as a tie breaker.
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Alright. Your team can have Gonzalez. I'll take Griffey.
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the bigger tragedy is Chuck Knoblauch having a war of 8.6 and coming in 16th.
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The bigger tragedy is how Chuck Knoblauch worked out his anger.
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Wow. Bonds posted a 9.6 WAR and was a 40/40 member. He finished 5th
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And people wonder why he started juicing.
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yeah he was dog shit before the juice, just like a-fraud. obviously they don't belong in the hof.
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'89 MVP voting was pretty funny too - look where Boggs, Saberhagen, and Rickey are
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Rickey's WAR was all in his walks that year, nobody cared about walks in that pre-Billy Beane world. Boggs too, really.
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One I didn't realize until recently that blew my mind: in 2000, 19 players appeared on ballots in the AL voting, and Troy Glaus was not one of them. Obviously his WAR (8.2f, 7.8r) wouldn't have been available for consideration, but I really would have thought leading the league in HR's would attract some attention. Maybe Erstad being the best player on a non-playoff team stole some of his thunder, but it still hardly seems like an excuse for everyone to leave him off their ballots.
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Noone gave a crap about Glaus back then. And I don't mean that as a dis, but he was essentially the new Tim Salmon in that he was a quality player that was ignored outside of Anaheim. That happened alot back then IIRC
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He led the league in HR's in his age 23 season. I think most people who were really paying attention thought he was destined to be a star. And he very well might have been had he had better luck staying healthy.
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What's more shocking about this is how high George Bell is. He must of been coasting on reputation from his '87 season cause his numbers in '89 were banal as it gets.
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Strangest thing about that year's voting. Who the fuck is Nick Esasky? 30 HR 100+ RBI and I've never heard of him before. Maybe the most forgotten 30/100 guy in history? Dude was out of baseball the following year.
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All I know is Mookie got a vote in that despite playing 54 games
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Can someone explain to me how Saberhagen won the Cy Young and was that high in MVP voting in '89, and didn't make the All Star Game, and then made it the next year with far worse stats?
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This happened all the time if you go back throughout baseball history, the WAR leader in any given year was unlikely to win MVP because our understanding of baseball was different back then. 4th place in MVP voting isn't that surprising, and I know a few times the WAR leader finished much lower.
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jesus. Jay Buhner had 44 and 138, and was way down there on the list. If a player did that today he'd easily win MVP.
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No one knew what WAR was. RBI was the stat back then for hitters
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In 1996, Ken Griffey Jr posted an MLB high 9.7 WAR, yet finished 2nd on his own team in the AL MVP voting.
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Give up for Bernard Gilkey -- second best NL WAR that year (among MVP vote getters, anyway)
Also like how the only three pitchers in the AL to get MVP votes were from the Yankees
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Aw Cammy.
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Steroids are a hell of a thing.
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It's ok r/baseball. You stay your high horse when it comes to that evil gambling. Just keep on ignoring how steroids ruined an era of baseball, because HRs are fun. That AL top 10 is a whos who list of abusers. Gonzales, A-Rod, Vaughn, Palmiero, McGwire, Anderson and I-Rod. No kids, Belle never did roids.
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You must be a blast at parties
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Well considering WAR wasn't invented yet, that isn't a very fair critique.
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Chuck Knoblauch at 16th with 8.6 WAR is ridiculous too
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Also, Brady Anderson hit 50 HR for a team that made the playoffs and finished 9th in the MVP voting.
Mariano Rivera was somehow 12th despite having 0 hits all year.
What a scrub
He also had 5 WAR as a reliever, to winner Juan Gonzalez's 3.8.
Not even as the closer, either. He was the set up man for Wetteland that season.
but RBI's.....
But did you know he once threw 129 pitches in a game? That's more than the career highs for Zack Greinke or Felix Hernandez.
Worst. Ninth. Inning. Ever.
Everyone knew the deal with Brady. "lasik" my ass.