Source
r/pathofexile•
21bye

[Expansion] Can we please get the other movement skills in line with Whirling Blades? #dontnerfjustbuff

Whirling blades is just ridiculous with almost zero investment even with zero attack speed thanks to faster attacks. Now im not saying it should be nerfed (please dont) just BUFF the other movement skills so that if i dont use the skill the game doesnt feel like slow motion.
The game is simply ten times more fun to play with whirling blades, running around from pack to pack really reduces the player's engagement level, this is definitely something to be looked into. When i use Whirling Blades i always push it trying to go faster and faster its a real rush the lack of which simply doesnt allow me to enjoy any other kind of build.

Posted Jan 10, 2016, 8:24 PM UTC

62152
aggixxTalisman HC•

People need to stop with this "never nerf anything" bullshit. Never nerfing things is a great way to get insane power creep, just because it makes you feel more powerful doesn't means its healthy for the game.

And yes, the other movement skills generally do suck and need to be brought up a bit, but Whirling Blades being so fast to the point where a caster with literally zero investment in attack speed is interested in using it over walking/quicksilvers means its blatantly too good. I really don't understand why they ever adjusted it in 2.0 in the first place, it was fine before and lockstep was already a huge buff to its usability as a travel skill.

63
budzergoThat Oro Flicker Guy•

its weakness is that it cant cross gaps or ledges

it has speed to make up for it. more line movement, less utility.

36
woot68•

it also has a fixed minimum range which is sometimes negativ

23
exhortatoryturning rad builds into bad builds•

it also gets stuck on rocks and stuff

8
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
withoutskaTempest•

Sure but anyone with half a brain will use flame dash as well for those situations where they need to cross a gap. It's what all the vaal sparkers are doing

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-1
Quazifuji•

While in general I agree that "don't nerf just buff" is a really simplistic, ignorant attitude, in this case I think I'd be 100% in favor of non-dagger/claw/sword builds getting their movement options buffed to be comparable (whether that means buffing existing movement skills or adding new ones).

Traversing enemy-less areas isn't interesting, and there are no core game design reasons that it shouldn't be possible to do it incredibly quickly (or that the time it takes should be heavily dependent on your weapon). It's just something that naturally happens when you have non-linear environment. Giving every build a map-traversal skill on par with whirling blades wouldn't break the game in the same way that buffing every offensive skill to match the best offensive skill would. All it would do, as far as I can tell, is make the game more fun and less tedious.

3
stuft_animal_crueltyhc temp leagues•

no core game design reasons that it shouldn't be possible to do it incredibly quickly

You're saying being able to move around incredibly quickly has no ramifications on combat.

2
Quazifuji•

That's a fair point.

2
letmeexplainitforyou•

As difficult as it would be to implement, an "ideal" would be that if there aren't any creatures within x+y distances of you, it "opens" the gate on things like flame dash to function more like whirling blades. As it is, whirling blades lets you move around quickly in combat, based on your attack speed - I see little reason to restrict this capacity on other builds, though I'm open to ideas of why it would be a bad idea on casters and non-blade melee and archers... that is, why do the skills that use whirling blades specifically deserve special treatment?

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Selkinor•

I just want the other movement skills to not require holding shift to function properly.

3
harrytrumanprimate•

I agree. The fastest clearspeed build in the game (vaal spark) uses whirling blades over quicksilvers or any movement speed on boots because it's simply faster. It's somewhat ridiculous that an ability can completely replace regular traveling.

2†
mitchell209•

Even if it wasn't faster, they would most likely use it over quicksilver because they use all 5 flasks for defense.

2
Quazifuji•

I don't mind the ability replacing regular traveling. Plenty of builds do that with Leap Slam or Lightning Warp too. Frankly, running through empty areas with quicksilvers isn't fun and I'm perfectly happy if movement skills can speed up that process. While power creep is a concern, I think the game's more fun if your clear speed is mostly limited by how fast you kill monsters and not how fast you travel around between fights.

But if they're okay with the convenience that whirling blades provides, it would definitely be nice if they buffed the convenience of the other movement skills a bit. Leap Slam isn't too bad, lightning warp's okay with some investment but sucks without it, and Flame Dash and Blink Arrow really just feel awful compared to the incredible convenience of whirling blades.

0
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
[deleted]•

[removed]

1
NinjaSwag_Talisman•

This is basically whats going on in Diablo 3.

1
SweetyMcQOriginal Closed Beta•

Dude come on...there is so much stuff in path of exile right now that is straight cum dumpster tier. Ice Spear, ele hit, shield charge, detonate dead, etc. Nerfing has its place but jesus christ everything in this game is so nerfed these days.

-2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
Elijahph•

Oh yeah we wouldn't want power creep on movement skills, would ruin the game if you didn't have to design your character around getting between two points instead of what you do once you get there.

-5†
saltytunapants•

You should go play wildstar i think they like your design philosophy. NO FUN ALLOWED!

-10
sushibagels•

Lightning warp was good prior to the Lockstep bug. ggg just needs to fix that.

30
TaIent•

Imo lightning warp was great prior to the reduced duration change.

28
JollyMurderousGhoul•

lightning warp wishlist:

fix the bloody lockstep bug

remove the predictive mode delay when in lockstep. This only affects players, not totems, but theres no reason for it to exist in lockstep, GGG only added it in to make players desync less

remove the delay of being unable to recast lightning warp unless the previous one disappeared. This delay is in addition to the predictive mode delay and makes spamming lightning warps in a row significantly slower than the advertised cast speed

change the targeting so that casting lightning warp or other movement skills on an obstacle terrain now targets to the closest point in a line pathable. This is how it worked in diablo 2: If you tried to teleport into an unpathable wall, it teleported you up to the edge of the wall. In PoE, it just doesn't cast at all. And if you put lightning warp on a totem or trap, and an enemy stands too close to a wall, it can't cast at all and will sit there afk

Give us back our old 0% duration. Either give some method of build around unique or threshold jewel, or reduced duration skill nodes, or whatever. Going from 0% duration to 20-30% duration just destroyed warp

11
zer1223•

Can I add in a wishlist for Leap Slam? I only have one wish. Actually it shares the same list as Flame Dash

Leap Slam and Flame Dash now automatically "cast while standing" rather than walking within "range" of your cursor before activating.

15
emmerichie•

Dear god please.

I've ripped more times than I'd like to admit because I'm spamming flame dash with the cursor too far away and my character gets stuck on objects/monsters.

I've gotten better with it now, but still.

7
big_dong_lover•

hold shift when flamedashing

2
Shiva-•

This, so much this. This is all Leap Slam and Flame Dash need. Whirling Blades already works like this and Blink Arrow has long enough range that it basically works like this as well.

1
Thaccus•

This alone would bring the other skills in line(popularity wise) with whirling blades.

1
RoBIN_128twitch.tv/robin_128•

Yes all of this please, id love to see lighting warp do something similar like teleport in D2 !

2
21byeOP•

Would be fun! Which is the point of the game so please...

2
sybrwookie•

While we're at it, lets get D2 telekenesis pre-nerf where it could pick up anything ;)

2
Knightmare101MAYHEM's 1 and Only•

It doesn't help wanders with 0 cast speed tho...

2
Daneel_Trevize•

THIS!

-5
zedrahc•

my biggest problem with leap slam and flame dash are less with the slowness, more with the fact that it feels clunky when you click outside the range of the attack, instead of just moving towards your cursor, you walk until you can leap/dash there.

whirling blades just feels so much better when you can just point and click in a direction.

19
Quazifuji•

Yeah, I really wish they at least gave the option of having those skills use the shift-click behavior by default.

4
Swizardrules•

That would be such an QOL adjustment

1
TheGreatWalk•

One thing I don't like is how if there is an obstruction between your char and the mouse, it'll just sit there. It should jump/whirl/dash/teleport to the nearest valid area, so no matter what if you panic click your movement skill the end result is you moving, instead of remaining where you are as is now. Basically bring back diablo II teleport mechanics

1
letmeexplainitforyou•

While it's a workaround, and not a solution, until they fix it, you can avoid this with shift (or w/e you bound to attack-in-place).

1
boredlol•

I'd be happy with Flame Dash if it was just changed to always cast in the direction of your cursor... It's attempt-to-walk-before-casting-because-cursor-was-slightly-too-far has killed me many times.

12
Quazifuji•

Yeah, you can just use shift, but that's annoying and feel like it's so rare that you ever don't want the shift behavior. It seems weird that whirling blades just goes in the direction of the curser but Flame dash doesn't.

3
tehzipfile•

I'm going to be so sad when they inevitably nerf whirling blades. After they neutered Leap Slam's range and how Lightning Warp is still broken, it's the only good movement skill left ;_; Blink arrow is alright since bow users generally have like +50% movespeed anyway.

8
AustereSpoon•

Yea but Blink arrow has that annoying as shit ~4 second cool down thing....

1
xdatz•

give whirling 3 charges lul

7
CrankZaxCrankGrief•

It would be fair but I would cry. Or make flame surge have no charges but do less damage?

4
ChrisWilsonIsMyDadHe really is•

Flame surge dash

Still can't understand the reason it has charges.

15
AwkamessSeoHyun // twitch.tv/Awkamess•

Because it is the best early game with minimal investment. Without charges, level 1 flame dash would be crazy in races for templar/witch/shadow who honestly don't need the help.

9
bladeofwill•

Maybe give it more charges/shorter recharge rate per level?

7
goetzjamBINOS BOYS•

Its not fair for the dex based dagger\claw attack builds that utilize this skill for quick movement to avoid the damage. Was going to say make the skill require a higher investment into dex, until I realized no one would just level it then.

I don't think I would be THAT opposed to it consuming a frenzy charge to bypass a cooldown, my issue then is it requires those builds that shouldn't really have any downside for this movement skill to have one.

The greater answer of course is just nerf vaal spark and this insane chaos damage with caster daggers, then stuff is more desirable.

2
letmeexplainitforyou•

Its not fair for the dex based dagger\claw attack builds that utilize this skill for quick movement to avoid the damage.

Why should they get special treatment, exactly? It's not fair for everyone else that daggers have this special capacity, to the point where the casting meta has shifted Strongly to daggers specifically to use whirling blades and fortify, two things designed to help everyone BUT them.

^(edit: to clarify, because this is really unclear, I mean other stuff should be buffed in line with whirling blades, somehow, specifically in terms of covering "empty space")

1
goetzjamBINOS BOYS•

Because this wasn't an issue before casters starting using daggers, more importantly it wasn't an issue before the addition of fortify.

Dex based part of the tree is almost completely about avoiding the damage, rather then mitigating the direct hits, whirling blades as a movement skill aligns with those ideals. People often complain about the life % that the right side of the tree has, part of the reason is a superior movement skill and damage avoidance techniques, which whirling blades fits into perfectly. So special treatment is justified when you consider the fact that other melee builds have mobility skills that can actually do more then whirling blades.

Fortify is just a generic buff which anyone that uses a melee weapon can get, part of the issue here is because whirling blades is rather fast, especially linked with faster attacks and a higher base weapon speed people are using them with casters to get the additional defensive option, lets also not forget GGG kinda pushed this further in 2.0 when they increased the monster damage.

I'm very well aware of the caster meta, I have a 120% lightning\spell damage wand with cast speed I literally can't sell for 1.25ex, perhaps its more to do with the meta or the lack of participation, but regardless this is a circumstance that might have been overlooked.

I agree something needs changed, either flame dash needs to be more appealing to casters or perhaps not make fortify work with whirling blades, I would absolutely hate to see a charged bypass system introduced for whirling blades because I feel like dex based attack characters have already suffered enough with various changes and would only get worst with changes to whirling blades.

Disagree if you want, its important to remember there is an intended playstyle for this movement skill and not nerfing that recklessly because something you view as OP shares something in common is the right idea.

3
Knightmare101MAYHEM's 1 and Only•

Flame dash have no cooldown please.

1
anderssi•

I like shield charge a lot, too bad i can only use it on so few of my characters.

5
mxzeal•

its so GG on facebreakers :D

1
NeedsMoreShawarmaContagion / ED DPS Calc: pastebin.com/abFdFVTT•

dontnerfjustbuff

No thanks.

3†
EluminatorTV•

Give us a tumble ability pls :D Also I would love a bow character to use it.

Blink Arrow feels so slow, as you need to wait for the projectile to fly.

2
Zaorish9•

No lol. Nerf WB and then they will be equal. No powercreep pls. Already way too much of it in poe.

2
ashcrofttTalismania!•

Equally shitty, yay!

1
zer1223•

No? Whirling blades is muuuuuch better than it needs to be.

1†
Meronomus•

I really want them to give Blink Arrow the bypass cooldown treatment. Make it so it consumes ALL your frenzy charges to bypass. And it must consume atleast 1, so that tripple pacifism jewel builds don't work.

Something like: Bypass cooldown by consuming all frenzy charges. X% increased clone duration per charge.

So you can spend one charge to get a short duration clone, or spend say 4 and get a medium length duration.

1
ekestomsGot rekt, went SC•

And we would be back to the old lightning warp ranger days!

Nobody would want to loose all 7 or whatever power charges to blink arrow one extra time. The damage loss would be way too much for it to ever be worth it.

Also, clone duration? Really? This is the best you can come up with?

2
Meronomus•

It's clone duration because it's simple. What would your ideas be? What? Throw bear traps per frenzy expended? Rain of arrows when you blink which area scales with frenzy charge? Lag entire servers plus 1 second per additional frenzy charge?

Consuming provides a benefit because you don't need to bypass unless you WANT to, because like you said, no one will want to most of the time. If you're a good ranger you can position yourself so one BA is all you need to get out of a tough situation.

Flicker Strike has this to be build enabling. Who the hell would want to use a teleport hit skill that has a 2 second cooldown WITHOUT a way to bypass it? Just imagine Flicker as a one blink wait skill.

By giving my idea to the clone duration, you enable clone builds, and isn't enabling builds the purpose of these types of mechanics? You can argue that 3+ clones provide too much defense because nothing's hitting you, but summoners have 10+ meat shields. Not to mention most stuff that WILL kill you will be AOE anyways (Voll Smash, Cannibal molotovs, lasers, chaining maps.).

0
ekestomsGot rekt, went SC•

I see your point, but for example, the quality on whirling blades is ATTACK SPEED, and on most movement skills, it's something that makes the movement itself faster, i understand it's something to be looked at.

The consumption thing would be ok, if let's say, it would only consume frenzy charges on the second cast, because if not, you would be making the skill worse, instead of making it more efficient.

1
Meronomus•

Ehm.... It's consume charges on second cast when there is already a cooldown to bypass it, which implies you already cast(ed?) it once.

1
Mairian•

this league I made and mf character that uses whirling blades and compared to flame dash.. well flame dash is so bad! I don't even know why I keep trying. Most of the the times it either works too slow or doesn't work at all.

1
TheMipchunk•

I would prefer if whirling blades were retooled as a sort of agility skill to be used in combat to get into a better position or to avoid some big hit, rather than just something to spam to travel.

1
krabbsatanyoutube.com/user/69zirc/videos - Theory Guild•

I prefer quicksilvers and 30%ms boots. But I still use whirling blades on all my characters because of fortify

1
ashcrofttTalismania!•

I prefer quicksilvers and 30%ms boots

I loved using this+Phase Run and Vaal Haste on my SRS-er. Was faster than a ranger most times, good times.

1
havoc616HvR 100 SC | HvA 100 NEM•

"Whirling blades is just ridiculous with almost zero investment even with zero attack speed thanks to faster attacks." Am I playing the same game? It feels pretty slow with only 20/20 gems and no other investment.

1
SkilezHardcore Standard!•

whirling blades 20/20 + faster attacks + fortify is considered zero investment i guess...but tbh, with these 3 even a caster feels super fast!

0
elgorrdt•

Leap slam's range should be scaled with gem level and it's animation should be slightly quicker. I'd say start with 50(shorter than current) and 80(longer than pre-nerf) with level20.

1
DnXCrypto•

I remember the days people were asking to buff whirling blades as a movement skill so it was in line with leapslam and lightning warp :D

1
eyoo1109•

I used to see it as a weakness that insanely powerful crit (pre crit nerf) dagger builds had to deal with.

1
ExiledRambo•

What is missing in my opinion:

  1. Skill for melee who can't use whirling blades. Leap slam is just too slow + annoying sound + annoying animation in long run.
  2. Skill for not-casting wanders.

And now we have flame dash which is worse than lightning warp. One simple solution: Make flame dash attack not spell related. It's maximum range should be also a bit higher imo + you should be able to use it immediately, not only when your cursor is in skill range.

1
Damajer•

I really dont understand why they fucked flame dash to death; its already limited by cooldown and now has nothing going for it. Leap slam isnt too bad it could use some mana cost reduction to make it spammable without blood magic and blink arrow should be instant imo.

1