Posted Mar 3, 2016, 1:45 PM UTC
Garry Kasparov, Ayn Rand, it seems the most ardent defenders of capitalism are people who lived in socialist "paradises." I wonder why that could possibly be?
This is not what I think, it is what Sanders supporters think:
They are from places where socialism failed, but we want to emulate places where socialism works (point to Nordic countries.)
(point to Nordic countries.)
I love when people point to Nordic countries (because everyone assumes Switzerland is Nordic) and then bring up how Switzerland is doing the best out of all of them and is one of the most-free markets in the world. The forced military service is off-putting, but it's a great example of pro-gun, pro-capitalism nice places to live.
Who is thinking Switzerland is Nordic..?
Lots of people, including my girlfriend as of our argument yesterday morning. I honestly think it's as simple as a lack of geographical knowledge (it's like, somewhere, like, above Germany, right?) and that Swiss and Swedish sound phonetically close enough that people get it confused.
There is snow, so it must be !
and is one of the most-free markets in the world.
I know next to nothing about this topic but have heard the "they're the example" argument more than once in regards to Sweden.
Can you explain of why you think they are one of the most free markets? I'd love to have that info for when I need it.
Not Sweden, Switzerland.
Also, Norway consistently scores higher than the U.S. on economic freedom rankings. They're the ones to point to, not Sweden.
Site is under maintenance right now but check back in a few days/hours.
http://thefederalist.com/2015/08/11/scandinavia-isnt-a-socialist-paradise/
I think Kasparov addresses that excellently (look at the highest rated comment on his post).
Nordic countries aren't socialist.
Which is why it's so funny when they say things like that.
Fuck yeah Vietnam
It's the most anarchistic society I've ever lived in.
Not because there isn't a massive government, but because people run away from it and hate it instead of running to it for help.
Fuck no, Greece, Japan, and Spain...
People in general distrust markets. Entrepreneurial spirit is "let's hope somebody hires" and "learn something useful because your business will fail and nobody will hire you".
I think u/Cialis_In_Wonderland put to rest the myth of Vietnamese freedom.
As someone who lived in Vietnam for more than a year (in the People's Republic of Massachusetts now), I'm intrigued. Besides, nobody ever claimed the Vietnamese were free, only that they're pro-market and anti-socialist.
I am sorry to break the circle jerk here, and while agree completely with the quote, Kasparov is a tool. He is backed up by the same people who pay off pussies and basically is USA neocon in Russia. I can my self share few chilling stories about Putin and that, but the least thing people want there is to be liberated by Garry and a likes, because nobody trusts them to be any better.
Most people you hear about are staunch Obama supporters and hate anything conservative about USA. So here you go.
Disclaimer: when I say nobody, I do not mean it like in in scientific research.
I see you put quotation marks around "paradises," despite that nobody describes those places as paradises.
Their governments did, and it seems a lot of people nowadays would like to see their policies implemented.
Which policies of the USSR are being advocated?
Legislated equality, government monopolization of certain key industries and regulation of others, welfare and benefits provided by the state via heavy taxation--the general socialist repertoire.
Progressive income tax is just one plank of ye old communist manifesto.
Duranty pretty much did, and it won him a Pulitzer.
Inb4 not true socialism/communism
That is literally the entire comment chain. They keep throwing out accusations of 'state capitalism' and 'this is different'.
They keep throwing out accusations of 'state capitalism'
They keep throwing out accusations of 'state capitalism' and 'this is different'.
How dare they have definitions for words.
We'll be real nice and gentle this time, we promise! Just give us your shit!
Kasparov is a hero and a legend. He defines an entire era of chess, but he is a hero because he decided to take his position and use it to galvanize a movement against Putin and the crony dictatorship he runs.
If he wasn't such a figure in Russia he'd be long dead, and even now he can't step foot there for fear of being caged forever.
I agree with him that his second match with Deep Blue was bullshit.
He also tutored Carlsen for a while.
He's pretty dope and I actually am willing to take him on his word when he discusses Socialism.
Carlsen is truly a worthy heir to the throne. That guy is a wizard - truly unstoppable right now.
I saw him lose recently and was relieved.
It started getting boring watching him win all the time.
[deleted]
Do you play online at all? I'm always looking for people to practice with.
None of what you said is relevant. What's relevant is socialists explaining socialism to survivors of it, and said survivors speaking out.
I wrote sentences about Garry Kasparov and the thread is about Garry Kasparov.
Did you fail Kindergarten?
No, the thread is about the idiocy of socialism being proven by real life events.
Trying to legitimize an opinion (or discredit it) based on the person who is expounding it is a form of hero worship (or opponent demonising) that detracts from the issue.
Don't lecture me.
Did you fail Kindergarten?
Spooky
These are some low energy memes
Arrest that man!
thanks friendo
You pointing out something being irrelevant to something else is not relevant to the post.
I need a banhammer over here!!!
I will not like this post on Facebook. I will not like this post on Facebook. I will not like this post on Facebook.....
I can't stand the whining of the Bernie bots on there, though. Anyone else just completely abstain from commenting on the sesspool?
I hit "like" and don't bother with the comments. Facebook comments have become the next youtube comment section.
That's not a bad strategy. I particularly hate when I argue with someone I haven't talked to in years because they just....need....a...talking...to! That's dumb of me. I do think there are a lot of quiet conservatives and libertarians on Facebook.
I did almost watch the super Tuesday with Bernie supporters just for the pure schadenfreude.
I do that too much myself. There's a guy I haven't seen since high school and one I knew in college...they post the lamest stuff.
I unfriend-ed Facebook.
I got in an argument with one of my father's lib-tard friends, Dad got mad at me, I deleted my account, Dad got even more mad at me and called me on the phone. I said "I'm done. No more. Facebook belongs to you now." That was 3 years ago and I don't miss it.
no one will listen
You asked for this. Why didn't you listen?
he knows nothing!! just give it a chaaaaance!!!
"Into the night" with Peter Thiel and Gary Kasparov (great conversation)
Awesome conversation. Thanks!
CIS gender male white privileged able bodied patriarch bastard doesn't understand it's democratic socialism
Who will be America's America?
Wow, I feel like a genius now because I made this same argument a while ago (except in a less catchy way).
So which one of us will be x-posting to r/SandersForPresident ??
My energy is spent friend, could you lay it on them for me?
I tired of being the spear-head. I want to play supporting role this round.
we know their answers... USSR was not socialist with Sanders is not socialist combined. Even though these explanations miss the point completely what Kasparov said.
And they are still lecturing him.
Yeah. Even today, America has horrible socialist programs that are just like Soviet communism, like fire departments.
Thinks the USSR was socialist
Ugh... facedesk
USSR was a police state that grew out of a country with no tradition of democracy, it is preposterous to suggest that it has any relevance at all to a vaguely socialist 21st century social democrat.
It's certainly not the tightest comparison, but saying it has no relevance at all? Sounds like a lazy way to ignore a line of thought that makes you uncomfortable. They have plenty of points of overlap.
Sanders showed support for various 1980s communist dictators. He is a dirty commie.
If we wish to retain our tradition of 'democracy' then we'd better not elect anyone who is vaguely socialist. It'd have a cascading effect, I'm sure.
Exactly the right answer.
He was born in 1963, so his experiences actually give him no insight of socialism.
Of course not. A mere 28 years of experience isn't sufficient for meaningful insight into anything.
Kasparov spent the first near 30 of his years living in the USSR; how on earth does that give him "no insight of socialism."
I suppose you're going to trot out some no true scotsman nonsense about how the USSR wasn't really socialist.
Do you think the working class owned the means of production in 1960s–70s Russia? Do you think Russia during those years is at all reflective of what kind of government or economy any of the people on reddit who call themselves socialists are interested in?
No true Scotsman.
That said; Sanders obviously isn't interested in trying to re-create a replica of the USSR in the USA. He promises to implement an idealised vision of European social democracy (minus the downsides of said system which he keeps very quite about)
[deleted]
"No True Scotsman," cried the person who doesn't know what "No True Scotsman" means.
Proles will never own the means of production, it's practically impossible. A civilization that attempts something such is one that will be conquered, either by foreign agents or by tyrants within.
The idea is a destructive one. Whether it was truly realized or not, the ideology is what turned the USSR into USSR, and likewise with the rest of the communist bloc, for obvious reasons.
The rationalist community goes soft on you guys, where they're not already blinded by the kind of BS you believe. But the ongoing revolution in academia and politics will soon lay you all to rest.
spooky post bro
Elaborate
My grandfather was born in 1930s. He said it was leaving hell. So here is your insight.
Oh yea?? Well mine was born in the 1920's and he's dead, how's that for insight?
You should work on your insights more.
Good at chess, not so good at thinking. Because clearly Sanders isn't advocating anything at all like Russia or the USSR.
Downvotes, but no discussion of why I'm wrong, ain't that just typical.
Because clearly Sanders isn't advocating anything at all like Russia or the USSR.
You know who else wasn't advocating anything like the USSR? The people who originally founded the USSR. It turns out that unintended consequences are a thing.
You know who else wasn't advocating anything like the USSR? The people who originally founded the USSR.
Not really, Lenin founded the Cheka -- the predecessor of the NKVD and KGB. He delighted in the death of "reactionaries"; Stalinism grew naturally from Leninism.
Lenin and Stalin were themselves the unintended consequences of their supporters. They were actually violent, amoral powermongers, not the 'vanguard of the proletariat' that their followers believed them to be (at least inasmuch as their supporters were looking for leaders who would only do violence to their perceived enemies rather than to them).
Lenin and Stalin in sequence systematically turned against their supporters and colleagues to consolidate their own power. Among the first people the Cheka started aggressively targeting were other, non-Leninist socialists. They tortured and imprisoned hundreds of thousands of veterans of the Red Army. Stalin took over and started 'erasing' followers of Lenin who weren't sufficiently loyal to him, like Trotsky et al.
Suppose you made a documentary about the history of the Soviet Union from 1920 to 1940, packed it into your DeLorean, and travelled back in time to St. Petersburg, 1917. How many well-intentioned Russian socialists would you expect to stay the course after seeing your film?
[deleted]
Tell that to the Sander's supporters
That's who he's talking about. Not Sander's. The point is that any socialist worth his weight knows Sander's isn't a socialist. But most supporters of Bernie wouldn't know a socialist from a banana. And are just spouting "socialist" nonsense at Kasparov.
Your comment is an apostrophe catastrophe.
That's fair.
I went to public school.
"In 1918, the Soviet Union became the first country to promise universal "cradle-to-grave" healthcare coverage, to be accomplished through the complete socialization of medicine. The "right to health" became a "constitutional right" of Soviet citizens."
https://mises.org/library/what-soviet-medicine-teaches-us
sorry for the copypasta, but we've seen it to many times to take a comment like yours seriously.
Garry Kasparov
March 1 at 11:57am ·
I'm enjoying the irony of American Sanders supporters lecturing me, a former Soviet citizen, on the glories of Socialism and what it really means! Socialism sounds great in speech soundbites and on Facebook, but please keep it there. In practice, it corrodes not only the economy but the human spirit itself, and the ambition and achievement that made modern capitalism possible and brought billions of people out of poverty. Talking about Socialism is a huge luxury, a luxury that was paid for by the successes of capitalism. Income inequality is a huge problem, absolutely. But the idea that the solution is more government, more regulation, more debt, and less risk is dangerously absurd.
Capitalism and socialism both have their pro's and cons, so surely a mixture of both is what's required moving forward? With the goal to remove the enablers that allow for big companies in coalition with goverments to have their way with society.
Proper education could be considered an investment for the country rather than a cost as it will only yield benefits for the future. This doesn't necessarily have to be achieved through traditional schooling, but lowering the barriers to entry in educating yourself would be a start. You can't ignore the social factors when trying to create an efficient economic model, any successful CEO of the 21st century will say that people are integral to success.
This approach of education will help reduce socio-economic inequality and hopefully build greater understanding in society. Both of these will help advance a country's economy which makes it a justified investment. So perhaps a human minded empathetic socialist touch is needed to facilitate the creation of a less skwewed and more free capitalist society?
You can't just make this claim like that and leave it. You know where you are, if you think socialism has certain advantages over capitalism, you're going to have to argue for it. Most people here support full Capitalism.
You want proper education? Get the government out of it, let the market provide schools, try to advocate unschooling and independance amongst children. Public education isn't good, it doesn't teach you how to think for yourself, it teaches you to burn some facts into your head before tests and then forget about it 2 weeks later.
What does this mean? Anything that isn't provided by the government ignores the people, or something?
I agree, let's fix education, let's put an end to the ideological mind-washing machines that the government has the audacity to call "schools".
Socialism can not exist without a productive half of the economy, otherwise it would be communism.
I agree, but some small degree of socialism (free education for example) within a largely capitalist economy would prove beneficial in the long run. You then address the genuine concerns of society while it still being a good economic investment, if the population is educated properly that is.
Bernie is not a socialist, he is a Democratic socialist. One has capitalism integrated with government focused social programs to catch the have nots. Socialism and communism both eliminate capitalism which offsets economic motivation.
This is an idiotic statement.
Can you elaborate your opinion?
What if you fall into the program and decide to not climb back out?
You're dumb and wrong. Please stop talking.