Source
r/Parahumans•
pendia

Trigger events questions (multitriggers, classifications, cape families)

[spoiler]

I have been thinking too much about this sort of stuff. Weaverdice documents are somewhat addictive to read.

  1. Are the powers gained from multitriggers obtained from a mix of shards? I.e. what Circus triggered, did the firebreating shard say to the hammerspace shard "yo, we should team up for this one", so that both shards maintain the same parahuman?

  2. Do multitriggers have to be from the same sort of trauma? Can someone get hit by a car and get a "brute" trigger, while another wants to avoid police scrutiny and gets a "stranger" trigger, but this count as a multitrigger so that they both get a brutey-strangery power?

  3. Specifically, could a tinker trigger (with the long term stress implied) be a multitrigger? A to-be-tinker stresses too much during test, while a to-be-stranger who didn't prepare for the test gets caught cheating, resulting in a strange-tinker (is there any other kind?)?

  4. What would Circus's hammer space be classified as?

  5. Would Dauntless be classified as a tinker?

  6. Cape families can spread "down" the family tree, but not up - i.e. the son of a cape is more likely to be a cape, but not the father of a cape. (I read it somewhere in Worm - I think I did anyway). Is this just because of the age restriction? Can older siblings of a cape be 'second-gen'?

  7. For the purpose of determining the power, is the application or the technicality of the power more important? I.e. Dragon is classified as a tinker, but is technically a thinker (who understands tinker tech) - so should she have a tinker trigger because of the use of her power? Do the shards 'model' the implications of a power before granting them?

I tried so hard not to ask an 'or' question in here.

Posted Apr 11, 2016, 10:51 AM UTC · edited

2735
Wildbow•

  1. Powers from multitriggers are from a mix of shards. The shards, instead of going all-in, give up a small to moderate portion of themselves, and then leave the rest of themselves to develop normally while taking in info from multiple sources, just like a shard would naturally gather info and eventually reach the point where it could bud. Except in this case, the shard will usually just go find another host, maybe with relation to one of the multi's, maybe not, and empower them.

  2. There would need to be some common ground. It's very possible that, in a car accident where two individuals triggered, that one would get seriously hurt and be anxious about 'oh fuck, my life is ruined, what do I do!?", While the other is like "Oh fuck! I'm going to jail!" while being a little bruised. The former gets a major brute power with minor thinker, while the latter gets a minor brute power with a major thinker. And the shards want to keep them involved and interacting, so in pretty short order they start to really hate or really like each other.

  3. See Archival in Lausanne. Reading the session isn't needed, but you can read the intro for how this plays out.

  4. Stranger

  5. No.

  6. Not age restriction. The shards prefer younger people because they're generally going to last a little longer if they wind up finding some degree of success (by virtue of being younger), because they have faster reflexes, there's more room for breadth and depth to develop (see Bonesaw, Jack, Number Man), and because they're more emotionally volatile or face more dramatic situations in the day to day than your typical adult does (Taylor vs. Danny).

  7. Dragon would be a tinker on the PRT books, but in execution she's very thinker. Her trigger is more thinkery. Shards do some modeling, but sometimes low-end powers just get scattered out to generally relevant targets. You really don't need to think too hard about how that cryokinesis blaster power is going to be executed by the criminal shmuck who ends up getting it.

30
PathtoVictory•

What makes the hammer space a stranger power? I would have guessed a breaker or maybe shaker. Is it just because it can 'hide' objects?

6
bramflakes•

Can bring weapons and other contraband into secured locations, and take valuable items out undetected. It would make her a very effective thief.

8
PathtoVictory•

Yeah, you're right. I forgot that the rankings describe the threat a power poses to unpowered people as opposed to describing the actual nature of a power.

5
misterspokesTinker•

Probably because the hammerspace is also undetectable?

4
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
whitehatguyTinker Taylor Soldier Spy•

Would Dauntless be classified as a tinker?

Dauntless is technically classified as a Striker/Trump, which I think is a flaw of the classification system. There are a couple powers that act and are fought exactly like Tinker powers, like Chevalier's and Dauntless', but because they are superficially different the PRT doesn't classify them as Tinker's. It's almost irrelevant that Dauntless has to touch an object to imbue it with properties, while it is very relevant that his power relies on his gear, and can change from confrontation to confrontation -- hallmarks of Tinkers.

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Wildbow•

Except if you fought Dauntless under tinker rules, you'd fail pretty hard. He can't really be separated from his gear, standard tinker countermeasures won't work, and his ability to choose the direction in which he develops over multiple engagements isn't nearly as pronounced as tinker's would be. If you were to separate him from his gear (keeping in mind that it binds to him on a breaker-state-like-level) then he wouldn't be able to 'tinker' his way up to potency if given resources. It would be months or years before he was a relevant threat again, just like we're talking about months of time to develop a new ability that would impact another confrontation.

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whitehatguyTinker Taylor Soldier Spy•

Hmm, I see what you mean.

Are there ever "faux tinkers" classified as tinkers? Like, if a hypothetical Dauntless was a lot more adaptable, but not as strong, would he be given a tinker rating?

4
Wildbow•

Saint, you mean?

15
whitehatguyTinker Taylor Soldier Spy•

Got me there.

Aaaand not to harass you too much about ratings, but is his rating of a Tinker 0 correct under PRT doctrine? I get why they did it, because he is such a weird case, but if the number is supposed to be the threat level to the PRT, wouldn't a couple of human piloted Dragon suits be well above a 0 ranking?

For example, the Weaverdice PRT handbook has the response for any 2+ tinkers to be:

Disruption is encouraged, with use of flashbangs.

which seems vastly insufficient in the face of Saint.

Thanks for all the clarifications!

4
foxtail-lavenderVerified Cape•

But it makes a lot more sense to classify these capes as strikers. Capes who make energy weapons are strikers. Capes who hold a weapon and channel something through them are strikers. Capes who pull a weapon from nowhere are strikers. Basically, any cape who has gear but doesn't invent it is a striker. Dauntless, too, uses his power like in one of these examples, as does Chevalier.

The difference is there, because they really aren't a tinker. Chevalier is really not comparable to Defiant, who is a million times more versatile and can whip up ridiculous gadgets from scraps. Or Bonesaw. Dauntless, too, isn't very comparable to a tinker. His progress is too slow, and it's way too easy to take care of him unlike a powerful tinker.

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whitehatguyTinker Taylor Soldier Spy•

Capes who make energy weapons are strikers. Capes who hold a weapon and channel something through them are strikers.

I'd amend that to say that capes that have a short or touch ranged combat use of their powers are strikers, whereas Dauntless' Arclance already seems to have a range of >30 ft, and only will grow, making him technically a blaster power, along with a mover, brute, and shaker power. And the problem with classifying him as such is that he could easily gain different powers given only a month or two.

Dauntless, too, isn't very comparable to a tinker. His progress is too slow, and it's way too easy to take care of him unlike a powerful tinker.

His progress is slower than many tinkers we've seen, though I will note that most of the tinkers we've seen at work have been some of the best in the world (Dragon, Defiant, Bonesaw), and might not necessarily be representative of the average speed of tinkering. But more importantly, while he is slower than the average tinker, he is still fought and categorized far closer to your average tinker than your average striker.

4
foxtail-lavenderVerified Cape•

I'd amend that to say that capes that have a short or touch ranged combat use of their powers are strikers, whereas Dauntless' Arclance already seems to have a range of >30 ft [≈ The length of a London Bus, Routemaster], and only will grow, making him technically a blaster power, along with a mover, brute, and shaker power.

Except that those are sub-classifications. Defiant is still a tinker, he just gets brute bonuses from his armor. Dauntless' Arclance gives him a blaster subclass, but Dauntless himself is not a blaster.

His progress is slower than many tinkers we've seen, though I will note that most of the tinkers we've seen at work have been some of the best in the world (Dragon, Defiant, Bonesaw),

I'd disagree. We also saw Kid Win, Chariot, Leet, and Tecton. There may have been others. Were they super-duper fast? No. But their progress was lightspeed compared to Dauntless, who took months and months to grow stronger.

But more importantly, while he is slower than the average tinker, he is still fought and categorized far closer to your average tinker than your average striker.

I've got to disagree again. Dauntless is pretty easy to figure out. He's got the shoes, the shield, the lance. Occasionally he might come out with another piece of gear or a new twist, but that's pretty easy to compensate for. It's no different than another cape finding a new way to use their power (Hookwolf turning to liquid, Skitter making silk traps). I'd say that Dauntless is a lot more like Miss Militia than any of the tinkers that we saw.

Edit: I'm fairly sure my comment contributes to discussion. If not, I'd like to know how so I can rectify this in the future. Thanks!

4
Ed_Dough•

Hmmm. My takes:

  1. "Passengers" are made of multiple shards sometimes. Circus was probably one of these cases. A few weaker ones decided to hang out.
  2. I believe they do need to be reminiscent of the initial trauma, yes.
  3. A second trigger could alter their specialty, I think.
  4. Breaker?
  5. Also Breaker? Or Striker? Not quite sure. He's crazy.
  6. Not sure.
  7. Um...I don't know.
7
bigwilliesteele092Shaker•

Wilford Brimley has specified that Dauntless is a trump, and that the 'totem' aspect of his power is unique to him. He could just as easily have been a straight up trump who could grant powers to himself instead of granting them via his equipment.

Link to WoG. ctrl-f "Dauntless", it's midway down the page.

4
foxtail-lavenderVerified Cape•

Breaker?

A breaker is someone who shifts into an alternate state with different powers - Velocity, Fenja/Menja, Night.

4
KateWalls•

Yeah, I'm thinking circus would more likely be a Striker. She can summon and hide objects at point blank range.

3
foxtail-lavenderVerified Cape•

Not only that, she's got to touch them to hide them.

As a general rule, anyone who has gear/weapons but is not a tinker (Chevalier, Circus [thank you wildbow], Dauntless, Miss Militia, Adamant, Flechette) is probably a striker.

5
KateWalls•

Actually I think Miss Militia is mostly a Blaster (maybe with a little bit of Changer thown in), but otherwise I agree.

3
Ed_Dough•

Ahh, crap. Didn't mean breaker. Oh well.

2
foxtail-lavenderVerified Cape•

Do multitriggers have to be from the same sort of trauma? Can someone get hit by a car and get a "brute" trigger, while another wants to avoid police scrutiny and gets a "stranger" trigger, but this count as a multitrigger so that they both get a brutey-strangery power?

In a multiple trigger event, the traumatic event that is happening is the same, it's just the way that the triggerees react that differentiates them and leads to their different powers.

Specifically, could a tinker trigger (with the long term stress implied) be a multitrigger? A to-be-tinker stresses too much during test, while a to-be-stranger who didn't prepare for the test gets caught cheating, resulting in a strange-tinker (is there any other kind?)?

Yes. See Lausanne for one example, in which a player (Archival) was a tinker/thinker multiple trigger.

What would Circus's hammer space be classified as?

Striker.

Would Dauntless be classified as a tinker?

Nope, striker/trump most likely. Striker because he has items that he imbues with power by touch, trump because his powers change over time. Edit: Oh, also striker/trump because it's WoG.

Cape families can spread "down" the family tree, but not up - i.e. the son of a cape is more likely to be a cape, but not the father of a cape. (I read it somewhere in Worm - I think I did anyway). Is this just because of the age restriction? Can older siblings of a cape be 'second-gen'?

Pretty sure that's not in Worm. It's more about if they have the potential, and then if they spend a lot of time around capes. It is more likely that the younger one becomes the second-gen cape simply because it's more likely that the older one is also a cape; also, younger people are more likely to trigger because they react to stress in a way that's more beneficial to the entities and because they can be more majorly influenced by their shard.

For the purpose of determining the power, is the application or the technicality of the power more important? I.e. Dragon is classified as a tinker, but is technically a thinker (who understands tinker tech) - so should she have a tinker trigger because of the use of her power? Do the shards 'model' the implications of a power before granting them?

Pretty sure that Dragon is a unique case and falls somewhere in between. Also, not every trigger in Worm strictly follows the guidelines we now have. However, I'd say that since we don't know enough about her trigger, from what we know I'd say she probably did have a tinker trigger, seeing as she triggered while being hounded by Saint. It's a lot more common for triggers to overlap and bleed over, with no clear classification. Fencing off a trigger event and the subsequent power into a single classification is too restrictive. Skitter had a power that was mechanically a master power (controlling bugs), but really would be better dealt with as a shaker power (her bugs are more a hostile environment); her trigger, in the same way, had major elements of a master trigger (betrayal, loneliness, abandonment) but the immediate danger for her was more like a shaker trigger (being trapped in a filthy locker).

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KateWalls•

Hey OP, I think it would be a big help for us if you changed the format of your list to numbers instead of bullet points, so we can all easily reference what's being asked and answered.

Just write "1. ", then "2. " ...before each point

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pendiaOPAmnesia•

Thanks. I'm not aware of a lot of reddit formating things.

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MenolithApply cogs•

What would Circus's hammer space be classified as?

I'm going with breaker.

Would Dauntless be classified as a tinker?

Probably. His infused gear develops tinker-like effects over time.

Is this just because of the age restriction? Can older siblings of a cape be 'second-gen'?

The shards can "bud." I suppose that they could move upwards the family tree (we know that Taylor's shard jumped to her from her father because she was more likely to trigger) but it's more likely that the mature shard comes from the older person.

For the purpose of determining the power, is the application or the technicality of the power more important?

The PRT ratings are just broad descriptions of how fucked an average Joe would be in a confrontation. If it sounds like a tinker, acts like a tinker, causes problems like a tinker and is dealt with like a tinker then you call it a tinker.

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