r/dndnext•
Kidiri90

On ability scores and randomness

This post is about finding a more balanced way of determining abilities with random rolls. The random method described in the PHB (roll 4 six-sided dice, remove the lowest one, sum the rest or 4d6d1: roll 4 dice with 6 sides and drop the lowest 1 I will use this type of notation henceforth) provides a range of 3 through 18, whereas the standard array and the variant point-buy provide a range of 8 through 15. In this post, I provide another alternative. Many have been given before me, and without doubt, there will be many after me. The alternative I provide is 1d9+7. In my opinion, this will provide a good distribution of abilities.


I'm doing this research because I hear many complaints about how the standard way of rolling for stats can create either very powerful PCs, or some very weak PCs. And that's something some DMs and players don't want to risk. Especially in 5e with its bounded accuracy, where ability modifiers remain fairly relevant, even in the late game. As such, I set out to find a way to roll for abilities that results in abilities that are more in line with the standard array, in order to provide an alternative so that you don't get crippled or overly powerful characters.


There are a few criteria I required of the distribution. Firstly, it should be possible to roll with a standard set of dice: d4, d6, d8, d10, d12 and d20. This means that any integer a=(2^p)x(3^q)x(5^r) is viable to be used in rolling (just trust me on this one). Or, no prime numbers save for 2, 3 and 5. Or any multiples of these excluded prime numbers. (So no d7, d11, d13, d14...)

Secondly, I (initially) wanted a distribution that returned numbers between 8 and 15. Just like the standard array and point buy. I also looked at distribution returning numbers between 8 and 16, 7 and 15 (which are similar to 8 to 15, but minus one), 7 to 16, 6 to 16 and finally 5 to 16. I did this by determining the values of A and C as a function of B, if the dice rolls are described as AdB+C. If m is the minimim value and M the maximum value, then A+C=m and AxB+C=M. From this we get that A=(M-m)/(B-1) and C=(mxB-M)/(B-1), with the added stipulation that A is an integer (you can't roll half a die).

The third requisite is that the distribution of ability scores is good. Of course, this is a subjective term, so I'll describe what I regard as a good distribution. But first, some more explanation. I'll be using the term 'average ability scores' not as the average of the ability scores, but as a set of average ability scores. This assumes that the primary score will get the highest of the rolls, the secondary the second highest etc. So the normal 4d6d1 has average ability scores of {15.66; 14.17; 12.96; 11.76; 10.41; 8.5}. Similarly, I'll be using '50% ability scores' as a term denoting the set of (integer) ability scores that have a minimum of 50% chance of occurring. As such, 4d6d1 has 50% ability scores of {16; 14; 13; 12; 10; 9}. Using these two sets, I determined 4 criteria:

  1. How close to the Standard Array are the average ability scores?
  2. How close to the Standard Array are the 50% ability scores?
  3. What is the point buy cost of the average ability scores?
  4. What is the point buy cost of the 50% ability scores?

Two problems immediately arise. Firstly, there is no possibility for non-integer point buy scores. This is easily solved by using rounded values of the average ability scores (AAS). Secondly, it isn't possible to buy scores higher than 15 and lower than 8. However, only the point cost of 16 is needed, which I have set at 12. (The reasons for this would make this long post even longer.)

Next up is a way of determining how close a distribution's AAS and 50AS to the Standard Array (SA) are. I have done this via the residual square sum (RSS). That is, subtract each AAS or 50AS value from its corresponding SA value, square that value, and sum all six of them. This means that 4d6d1 has an AASRSS of 0.9418 and a 50ASRSS of 2. Both of these values are pretty darned good, and in fact the best of the examined distributions. For the final two criteria, I have determined the point buy cost, subtracted 27 and squared the result. This means that in all cases, lower is better.

The first four criteria (usable dice, range of 8 to 15, SA vs AAS and SA vs 50AS) then led to five viable means of rolling for abilities: 1d9+7; 2d12d1+4; 3d6d1+4; 4d4d1+4; and 11d2d1-4. These were then further reduced to the final 1d9+7 by the final two criteria.


Of course, now remains the question of how exactly do I roll a d9, since I don't have any. For this, you'll need 2 d6s (or d12, but that requires more math). Each roll of the d6 should be divided by 2, and rounded up. This way, you effectively get a d3. From 2 d3s you can get a d9 distribution by doing 3x(1d3-1)+1d3. In fact, any d(MxN) can be made by rolling Mx(1dN-1)+1dM. This means the you are rolling 3x(ceil((1d6)/2)-1)+ceil((1d6)/2)+7 six times.

Any thoughts, criticisms and questions are always welcome. I'll tidy up the post if needed, as well as the Google Sheets document so that it's legible for others. As soon as AnyDice is up again, I'll link to that program as well.


TL;DR: I have tried to find a new way of rolling for abilities so that you won't roll crippled or overpowered characters. This resulted in 1d9+7.

Posted May 24, 2016, 10:55 PM UTC

023
Viruzzz•

I'm doing this research because I hear many complaints about how the standard way of rolling for stats can create either very powerful PCs, or some very weak PCs.

I hate to say it, but I don't think you've solved the problem you set out to solve.

The campaign I'm playing in now has 6 players so I rolled 6 sets of 6 in a roll20.net room, this is the first result I got:

http://i.imgur.com/Fqxm9NE.png

#1 is fucked, completely. He doesn't have any good rolls, not one.
#2 has a 15 and the rest is pretty bad
#3 is a decent spread
#4 is overpowered, he doesn't even have a weakness.
#5 is not good but he's at least playable, he doesn't have much going for him with a single +2
#6 is a decent spread, a bit on the high side.

The sum of all their ability modifiers range from -5 to +9

Point-buy gives everyone an equal start, I don't think it can be beat.

9
Chuzzwazza•

Point-buy gives everyone an equal start, I don't think it can be beat.

There's also the method where the DM himself rolls for stats, then all the players use the same rolls he got (though they can assign them to whatever ability they want). Keeps it equal, random, and different.

Even if the DM rolls really low or really high (and thus all players are weak or strong), it's not actually a problem because he can scale down or scale up encounters to match. Normally that doesn't work because you have only one really strong person, so if you scale up to challenge them, the rest of the party is going to die, but if you scale down for the rest of the party, that really strong person is going to be a god.

1
dubiousmage•

That's a lot of math that I'm not even going to acknowledge. But here's my thoughts on the concept.

I like a little bell curve in my distribution, so I'd probably prefer 2d6+6, for a spread between 8 and 18. If I were trying to avoid the high scores I'd use 1d6+1d4+6.

Also to roll a 1d9 I'd use a d10 and reroll results of 0.

But all of that is just me personally. As long as your way works for you, go for it.

5
SuscriptorJusticieroThe Scarlet Chrisantemum•

Also to roll a 1d9 I'd use a d10 and reroll results of 0.

Yeah, that's simpler than OP's idea of rolling percentile dice in base 3.

1
IronforgedAnti-Paladin•

You want a bell curve so 3d4+5 giving you 8-17 range would be better.

If you like playing around with dice math take a look at http://anydice.com/

2
Bohrdumb•

8d2

2
Viruzzz•

6 times?, that's 5248 dice to roll in total for 6 ability scores.

I mean I'm sure it'll work but that's a lot of dice to roll.

3
Bohrdumb•

Take 8 coins. Write a 1 on one aide and a 2 on the other. Toss the lot and add them up.

2
Viruzzz•

5248 coin-throws then, doesn't change anything. It's still a lot of stuff to roll/flip.

3
winkingchef•

I like the thought of 52 pennies hitting the ground. You could also drop a whole deck of cards and take face-up as 1.

1
Bohrdumb•

I get that numerically it is a lot (48) but in the actual physical action it's very little. Stack your 8 coins in your hand, drop them on the table, add it up, repeat 5 more times.

It gives you a stat dispersion that most accurately represents that standard array without having to create any unusual formulas.

1
VZF•

...or just use heads/tails.

1
Bohrdumb•

You certainly could. I'm just thinking of some people I know who would forget which side had which value.

1
the_Stick•

You have a computer?

...

0
WalditRook•

While I appreciate the maths, I don't think this really fixes anything - the issue with rolled stats is not whether the distribution makes sense, but in the lack of recourse when you have an outlier point.

Your given generator of 1d9+7 can give a character with 6 10s (totally unplayable), or a character with 6 16s (totally overpowered), and as you are using a linear distribution, is actually more likely to do so than the original scheme.

Although the probability of these events is low, if your system was adopted by a large number of players, you could quickly reach the expected number of iterations for one of those conditions to occur.

I think the only solution to this that maintains some randomness is to make the scores generated dependant on the previous scores (such as generating only arrays within a small range of deviation from the mean of a Xi^6 distribution; or distance from the expected roll given an expected value of an aggregation function).

2
sixftnineman•

I had an idea where 4 party members each roll 4d6 twice, drop the lowest. Then they get to pick one number that each of the other players rolled. The DM chooses the final start to provide some balance. They're then relatively balanced with each other because half your stats are the same as the other players.

1
buzzbuz•

Rather than using RSS as your similarity criteria it seems like you would be better off trying to define what constitutes a "bad" array and what constitutes a "OP" array and try to find an option that maximises the chance of rolling within that range.

The main advantage of the SA is that it eliminates variances between players, so comparing your roll method to the SA is only valuable if you have a similarly low variance between characters.

i.e. your criteria might be something like:

  • minimal chance of multiple "low" rolls (i.e. 8 or 9)
  • minimal chance of multiple "high" rolls (i.e. 15 or 16)
  • non-extreme ability modifier sum (maybe +5 to +6)

Only after finding methods that meet these criteria would I go on to use your criteria, eliminating extremes should be your first choice.

1
kirtarCleric•

What are your thoughts on the advantages/disadvantages of this just being a U{8,16}?

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
lesalemNo Pallys Allowed•

I think there's a reason why 16 is not available in the point buy method: it allows characters to max out their primary stat by level 4 already, therefore it should be avoided.

The other problem i see is that you only roll one die for each score (d9), which can be done via d10 as others have mentioned. Isn't this too few repetitions? I'm not really good with statistics but....

Also, what do you think of 3d4d1 +7? You still range from -1 to +2 before racials, avoid the problem of maxing out a score too soon, roll more die for your sample, and buff non variant humans a little (as none will ever have a -1 modifier, since minimum score is 9)

1
VZF•

I have a method that tweaks the current 4d6 drop lowest-you roll five of your ability scores on 4d6, set a die aside, and use those dice to make your final ability score.

It's a flexible method, you can give players the option of setting aside any die instead of just the lowest-meaning they can try and save sixes to get one high score.

There are pros and cons. One of the cons is that you're rolling fewer dice, but the pro is that fewer dice are "wasted."

1
vendric•

How do you roll a d9 with standard D&D dice? It is an acceptable number by your standards, since 9=3^2

1
Eepop_gaming•

12 cards, with two of each number 4-9. Shuffle. Deal into six piles of two cards.

Enjoy the balanced but random ability scores.

The "worst case" is all 13s, which I think just gives a great reason to play standard human to get all 14s.

1
DisgracefulDead•

Some simple solutions:

  1. Allow players to choose from a standard set (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8) if they are not happy with their rolls.

  2. Set 8 as the minimum.

  3. Allow players to reroll their lowest result.

  4. Allow players to roll two or three sets and pick their strongest.

Honestly, I'd just combine one and two.

1