Pure gold comment at a keto resource: CICO don't real, set points, and exercise doesn't help weight loss
Posted Jun 26, 2016, 12:19 AM UTC
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So what he's saying is that calorie counting is even more effective than we thought, because some calories are expended via waste, meaning that if you eat 1,500 calories, you might have only eaten 1,400 calories because the body "reacts differently" to them. If we always count calories as the maximum amount of calories in a foodstuff, then the worst possible thing that could happen is that we don't absorb as much, since it would be absurd to think you could absorb more calories than exist in a given item of food.
I'm glad that this person gave us even more hope!
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Haha, that stood out to me too. His argument is all over the place.
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I can also confirm if even a slight bowel issue is present, the yields may be lower than anticipated. This is why surgery to remove colons in ulcerative colitis often are tied to weight gain as they removed the diseased colon.
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As someone who's had a very small amount of colon removed due to Crohn's, it's not necessarily lower calorie yield.
Pre-surgery, I'd be stuffed from eating four shrimp. Even if you eat whenever you're hungry until you're stuffed, you still lose weight. You can think of it as an all natural lap band.
Once the stricture was removed, I pretty much forgot how to eat. I didn't even think to control my intake because the past three years were "eat as much and as often as you want with no weight gain". This led to some pretty rapid weight loss.
This is my anecdotal experience, of course, but it was shared by at least a handful of other patients I've met post op.
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This also makes sense.
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I used to be super active on the keto subreddit. It was people in denial of calories, plus some other craziness, that caused me to leave.
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Their calorie denying kept me fat an extra two years. Loved the diet, ate whatever I wanted and wondered why I still was fat.
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Yep I failed many times till one of the few users who got it got through my head to count calories. Bam! Super easy weight loss on a diet I could sustain. So I started preaching the word. It was a 50/50 chance if I got up votes or down votes. Lots of "I can eat more calories and lose though on keto" which keto has some effects on hormones and could change weight loss speed but not drastically. And even still that is still CICO. Your TDEE just changed you dummy!
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I started my weight loss process on the keto subreddit. Then I accidentally found out that calories matter. I would have carb cheats and fast afterwards to mitigate the effect and then ended up losing weight faster. Conversely, I would go back to my parents' house during holidays (I'm a student) and eat an abundance of low-carb, high-fat food and then gain weight.
I'm still lower carb, higher fat since it gives me energy. I just dislike the mentality of how one French fry justifies a binge. Cheats are not an excuse to overeat. I don't see what's wrong with getting a small thing of fries at McD's or having ice cream and then skipping breakfast the next day. I understand that some people have food addiction issues but this fear of the addictive nature of carbs almost seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Edit: Redundant hyphens
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Agreed. Some people truly do struggle so I think people should be really strict with whatever plan they chose for six months and then experiment with deviating and assess as they go along. Some people truly can't stop at a small fry or ice cream. But people need to pick a way of eating they can sustain and be healthy on. Keto does that for some and not others. I prefer keto but am in a situation where I can't do it healthily so I'm struggling not to gain because I have issues with carbs. I learned a lot of hunger control with keto though luckily and can't wait to get in a place in life that I can eat that way again without worry
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I associate keto with a time in my life when I ate entirely too much bacon. I lost about 30 lbs and I gained it all back as soon as I brought carbs back into my diet because I wasn't... gasp... counting calories.
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I'm a Keto-er. I count calories and track my macros. I'm surprised at the amount of people saying "calorie counting is not true... But I've stalled." No shit Sherlock.
The amount of times I've tried helping people going "I've stalled, idk what's wrong!!" And I say: "lower your calories for weight loss" and I get a response of "we don't need to track!" Or "you need to eat more to loose weight!" The amount of fat logic is insane in some Keto avenues. You'd think I was looking at them and going "oh, you've got cancer? Here's some leeches, have at it."
It drives me up a god damn wall because all of these people follow some damn half wit "expert" who does podcasts and it's like a cult. I tried to help one woman and her response was "you look skinny" like thanks? That has nothing to do with trying to help with your macros. She would not drop it, as if skinny people shouldn't be trying to improve themselves via diet.
I love Keto, but the people man. The people. They range from know-it-alls, elitists and a lot need tinfoil hats with their fat logic. But there's like 2% us that are cool, I swear.
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I have to agree with you, the people in the Keto cult sometimes just make me want to bang my head against the wall. The fat logic (or out right indigent rage) that ensues after you mention that you maybe want to track macros or calories for a week to see if you're eating too much just makes me kind of stick to myself these days.
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People like you are the only reason I defend keto for some people. Most of the people who post on MFP in defense of keto are nutjobs. It took coming over here to find some keto adherents with a shred of sanity in them.
It's not for me because I don't like meat or fat, but if it works for you as a sustainable path? Enjoy.
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A hobby forum I frequent has a fitness and nutrition subforum. One guy was formerly around 300lbs, diabetic, and "cured humself" with keto. His fatlogic is abundant and tons of people follow it unsuccessfully.
I've tried to explain CICO, but that doesnt matter because MASSIVE INSULIN SPIKES!
Well heres the thing, not all of us have damaged our bodies to the point that MASSIVE INSULIN SPIKES are harmful. In fact, thats how your body is supposed to work.
CICO also dont matter because its impossible to gain weight on keto. Just eat as much as you want. Fats make you full.
Ketards adhere to keto as it being literally the only way to lose weight and stay healthy - even for people who dont function well on it. Tarded I say. Tarded.
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I honestly don't even know where to start with this. It's like he somehow believes every single piece of fatlogic that has ever been mentioned.
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This is really a gem. Calorie restriction doesn't work, but fasting does? Uh, dude, fasting is calorie restriction
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Calorie restriction doesn't work, but fasting does? Uh, dude, fasting is calorie restriction
But set point? My metabolism slowing? And hormones!
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Oh this post had it all! An almost magical level of fatlogic. I just couldn't cram it all in one post
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I think they are referring to intermittent fasting (IF), which isn't really calorie restriction, you just eat your day's meals in a shorter time frame between daily fasts.
IF probably works slightly better for losing fat than not doing IF, but you still need to be on a restricted calorie diet for it to work.
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There are chemical reasons that it might reduce hunger over other meal patterns. Might.
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Yeah, I've noticed a significant reduction in hunger since I started doing my own forms of IF. I don't eat any meals before at least 6 pm every day (usually after 8 pm) and as a result I literally don't get hungry (actual hungry, like weak and needing food) until at least 3 or 4.
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Being hungry is the body shutting down systems!!!?!?!
OP, this is gold. All the fatlogic theories squeezed into one comment.
With respect to Dr Fung I think I'd be taking advice regarding the hormonal effects of dieting from an endocrinologist.
Some of the fatlogic posters (those that believe the fatlogic) appear to believe that there is something magical about hormones and that but hormones is an argument in itself. Hormones are no more special nor no less than anything else in the body,
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Herp derp. You can literally eat any kind of diet and lose weight as long at you are in a calorie deficit, but some diets are healthier, more effective and more sustainable than others. CICO is just a basic fucking principle of weight loss. Any time I've lost weight it's been because I've balanced my calories in and calories out. It didn't matter if I was doing keto (tho I personally found it ineffective) or anything goes or low carb or clean eating or whatever. The key is finding something that is sustainable for you, which is where I've largely failed in keeping weight off.
No matter how much you wish upon a star you are not going to lose weight from eating as much fat as you want or as much whatever the fuck your diet is as you want. This is the sort of shit that made keto really hard for me because I don't find high fat foods satiating but knew I wouldn't get fuck all results if I eat to satiate hunger in keto foods. (I'm currently HCLF which is by far the most sustainable for me that I have ever tried, doesn't really feel like a diet, I'm not hungry all the time and it's easy to balance my calories in and out so I'm in a solid deficit. I disagree with hclf-ers that say "eat 3000 calories a day!" and shit, i stick with the ones that say more 'eat until your satisfied' since it's pretty easy to do that and still lose weight. Sorry keto fanboys but you can't eat until your satisfied in cheese and bacon and still lose weight because they are calorie dense foods that you need to eat a fair amount of to feel full)
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Cold grumpy and lack of energy? Sounds like the meat sweats not calorie reduction lol
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It sounds right to me. One of my least favorite parts of cutting is being cold all the goddamn time.
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I don't like being cold all the time, but it's sure easier to warm up than cool down.
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This person is sort of right with the first point. Calorie restriction over a long term does cause your body to shunt resources away from 'systems' that aren't entirely necessary. Hormonal production slows down, and this results in loss of muscle maintenance and decreased sex drive, among some other things. But all that does it make you feel a little crappy for a while, it's not like your body will stop your lungs or heart from working.
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This person is sort of right with the first point. Calorie restriction over a long term does cause your body to shunt resources away from 'systems' that aren't entirely necessary.
I think you are mistaken there. The slowing metabolism theory is classic fat logic.
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I didn't say that it slows the metabolism, I said it slows hormone production, which is quite different. Research has shown that long-term calorie restriction decreases serum and free testosterone levels, though the body quickly returns back to normal after returning calorie intake to maintenance.
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Huh, I wonder if this means it'll be easier to grow a beard at maintenance than while dieting.
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Asking the important questions.
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Depends on your starting point fat mass, caloric deficit, current fat mass, and caloric flux. :P
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Dr Fung is a joke. A really bad one.
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Ugh how annoying. I do a low carb/keto diet for my health as I think it's a healthy way to eat, but in terms of losing weight it has no metabolic advantage over anything else. CICO for weight loss and keto for my own personal health (and I know you can be healthy on a multitude of ways of eating, low carb is just what I have found to cause me to be the healthiest).
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Pfft, you guys are being absurd. Really, we all know that avoiding carbs awakens the insulin fairies who wave their bacon wands, and cause body fat to disappear into the space-time continuum. C'mon guys, this is day one physics
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I do fast for health (not weight loss, 5 days at a stretch) a few times a year and hit ketosis in 36 hours. (Interested in protein cycling for reducing cancer risk, ditto temporary, not permanent ketosis, pushing autophagy to potentially avoid AGEs and amyloidosis and lipofuscin, etc.)
Dude is nuts. I regain virtually all the weight within two weeks. Seems to boost lean mass a month out, but there is no magic reset there.
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To be fair, 5 days is a lot..... but some people do 20-30 days and things like to try and get a bigger reset.
At the same time, I do wonder if they could have been referring to IF or the 5:2 method.
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I do low calorie and I don't have any of those symptoms. I'm hungry sometimes but that's because I'm not stuffing myself with food all day anymore.
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Arrrrgh! Keto hulk angry! Bacon cheeseburgers do not violate the laws of thermodynamics, and those types drive me batty. It's hard enough when everyone is asking you to eat bad food or your friends are asking you why you lost weight, but it's for seizures and not intentional, right?
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Wait a second, is this person actually using a book based on the fact that humans have, for centuries, survived and thrived on feasting and fasting - to somehow prove that fasting is bad for you?
Please someone tell me I'm wrong and it's just the alcohol
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He talks about how good fasting is for one's body, so the booze is messing with your head on this one.
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I'm all for keto if it works for you, it doesn't work for me because I don't find the food I can eat on it very appetizing plus fat food tends to turn really strange after you've kept it in the freezer and for someone who has 25 lunches in the freezer for work, the stuff I cook has to be able to be frozen. But I can't help but be a little annoyed by the keto camp because theres so much pseudoscience buzzing around it and the followers kinda behave like FAers except just a different brand.
I'm generalizing and I'm aware that many on this sub practice keto and they still hold CICO true, those are not the people I have a problem with. It's the people who would tell me they're the enlightened and I'm just a peasant stuck in the dark ages because I dare eat carbs.
The keto subs can get kind of cultish and fatlogic-y. I mean, it's fine if it works for you (doesn't really work for me either), but it's not the One True Diet, and it won't make you healthy per se. There's still a huge difference between losing weight and being healthy.
I love keto and it has worked extremely well for me. But I definitely see a decent amount of True Believer Syndrome in the community, so I feel your pain there. Keto is just an easy way (for me) to eat foods that hit my protein macro and keep my calories under control without hunger. But I can completely get that it might not work for everyone for whatever reason, and likewise I understand that it's the calories, not the low carb bit, that drives the weight loss.
Ditto. I love keto, and lost 37 lbs so far (10 more to my goal!). Buuuut I counted calories the whole time. Keto just kept me from getting hungry while eating less. Luckily the subreddit for women (/r/xxketo) has always advocated CICO so I never fell into that trap. My brother did though, and never lost a pound that wasn't water weight.
I tried keto and it was miserable. Meal prep, grocery shopping, and especially eating out was just a nightmare all the time. I realized it was significantly less effort to just start counting and weighing everything I ate.
This, just practicing pure CICO gives you all the flexibility you need and more importantly, it 100% absolutely works in all cases.
I did keto for a while but went back to CICO for this reason.
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It does seem to work well, but it works because high fat diets are very filling and so it is easy to meet your calorie targets. It's just a strategy to do CICO.
I feel like everyone I know who did keto didn't lose a pound because they didn't bother with CICO.
I'm a person who has lost a shitlord of weight on keto... because I do count calories.
A whole shitlord of weight is not a lot of weight, as it turns out.
A shitlord is a hell of a unit to measure your weight in! I approve.
For me, it's something that I could pull off. The problem is keto for me is too expensive for my budget since there's higher priorities.
I'm surprised you're not being downvoted. Not because you're wrong (I don't think you are) but because this sub is constantly shutting down people who say that eating healthy is expensive.
Honestly, I do keto and I love it. But meat is expensive and you have to buy A LOT to stay on track and make sure you have the room to store all of it. Also veggies don't have the greatest shelf life so there needs to be multiple grocery trips in a short amount of time. Compared with eating dollar menu garbage every day it does seem expensive but obviously the steady, rapid weight-loss is worth every penny.
It's more the type of diet. There's more effective schemes such as ELF: Eat Less Food.
Like others who do keto, I had a food addiction. Much like smoking (which I also quit, yay!) I couldn't just go ELF cold turkey as much as I wished I could. It had to be a gradual transition and I eventually got there thank God. Keto keeps me full on less and I love that I don't get that bloated feeling I got when I was eating carbs.
I also got so much better at reading food labels. So much deceptive labeling out there! Even one of my fave keto snacks which is pickles: "1g Carbs per serving. Serving size is 3/4ths of 1 spear." Like wtf, I'm not chopping off a 4th of my pickle and putting the stub back in order to eat the recommended serving size lol.
Same. I tried keto (keeping CICO in mind) and it just didn't work for me. If it works for you, cool, but it really wasn't for me.
Nothing wrong with ketogenic diets. Its a great tool in the toolbox.
Plenty of things wrong with dogmatic ketards.