Dragon Ball Strength Debates: Harmful to Your Fandom?

Whether or not it's harmful to your fandom, I doubt the problem will ever go away. Of course, you guys at Kanzenshuu can decide how much time you want to devote to chronicling the evidence this way and that, but this fandom in particular is always going to be obsessed with power levels, and there is only so much you can do to divert discussion in other directions (like the moratorium on vs threads here).

It's not just martial arts anime, though. The fandom in which I have had the most involvement and influence is the Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan. It's epic fantasy, but the story revolves around "channelers" who can manipulate a power that is similar to ki in DB. They have power levels, and fans have always been obsessed in that fandom (to various extents) with who is more powerful than who. It's one of the reasons I didn't like the Dragonmount forums (the biggest WoT forum), because there was a high concentration of "who would win?" threads, and at Wotmania (a now-defunct WoT site, another big one) they were super-obsessed with power levels (and tended to have more intelligent and evidence-based discussions about it than DM).

As one of the fandom experts and researchers, I chose to ignore power level discussions most of the time. I found them tedious. Other researchers (mostly from Wotmania) devoted time to it, but I didn't. And then, after Robert Jordan died, I spent a week in Charleston with a friend digging through Robert Jordan's notes in a library, and we found that his notes on power levels were extremely detailed and consistent. So all of a sudden I found it very interesting, and I spent a great deal of time over the next couple of weeks making a detailed list of power rankings. Many of the fans' guesses about who was stronger than who turned out to be wrong, but it was never because inconsistent information was given in the books.

In the end, no one was harmed by all that power level obsession, and I even managed to find some enjoyment in it, but maybe that's just because it turned out to be very consistent. Consistency is a big problem in DB. In Jordan's notes, he actually expanded his power ranking system at one point, and after that, he had to assign everyone a new number. Since his notes were so voluminous, he kept both numbers so that he would know when he looked at his notes whether the new ranking had been assigned yet. (This wasn't explained anywhere; we had to figure it out.) So that's another mark of his devotion to consistency.

Whether or not power rankings are consistent in DB, though, it's hard to argue that they're not relevant. The whole series is basically about getting stronger, surpassing the next big bad guy. I don't say that to diminish the other aspects of the story that we all love, but we all know it's true. And that's why you'll never get away from it.

IMO the best thing you can do is chronicle the evidence and the inconsistencies as best you can. If this annoys you, personally, then by all means, outsource that work to someone who (at least somewhat) cares about it. But the question of whether it's harmful to the fandom is kind of academic. People are going to talk about it. (Just my 2¢.)

I have said it once, and I will say it again:

The power level view into the series has trained a significant portion of the fan base into real life stereotypical members of the Frieza empire, where each and every individual is reduced to a floating number above their heads and any sudden changes to said number are met with shock and confusion.

It doesn't matter whether or not power levels, or power scaling were meant to show how meaningless they are - the fact is that ever since the concept was introduced, we've been trained into believing that it is the power level, or a character's "ranking" in the power pyramid, is the main and only factor into deciding a fight. And I say this as a dedicated power level lister - not Vegito1089 tier, but familiar with the concept. Have you seen what happens there, in discussions under such a list? I think I could discuss for weeks whether LSSJ Broly is stronger than Perfect Cell, or if Vegito is stronger than Gogeta, or whatever. And this "subculture", as you could call it, created a very deterministic view into each and every character - this character is SSJ2 tier and only SSJ2 tier, this character is always supposed to be weaker than that character, this form is supposed to be stronger than that form and always should be. And this school of thought just doesn't work in Super.

This is, of course, where we get the frustration and the discussions on Super power scaling. If anything, Super lives on a very OG Dragon Ball approach to power - the fights are shorter and less focused on feats, and there is no dedication to actual, deterministic strength tiers, which is why an accurate DB list is practically impossible - while the portion of the fanbase angry about it is still stuck in the DBZ era, where every single character has to have a power level assigned and must follow that power level like gospel in every fight they take. Or at least that is what is on their thoughts.

It'll go away with time, I think. We need to break out of the power level rhythm, that is all.

I think it hurts the fandom, because its harder to get invested in the story when you are watching and already thinking 'Well this seems like bullshit, how could xy hurt xz, he is clearly stronger'. However I think this is partly Toriyamas fault for making a few select characters seem untouchable compared to others, so when they DO get hurt by someone else it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Eg. being: Goku getting hurt by the Ring Laser. It caused a lot of uproar amongst people, because they weren't paying attention to the story bits which explained that Goku is too carefree and bound to lower his guard around his enemies rather people only payed attention to the part where Goku reached the levels of Gods and could destroy the universe with shockwaves. Its bound to happen with any popular shonen, if power levels stayed more grounded or progress has been slower for the main cast these issues wouldnt surface this much.

Another thing is, in DB the heroes all have the same power-set, everything is done by manipulating KI so comparison is easier in-universe, than in lets say MARVEL where there are many different powers and abilities. (Super has start to differentiate from the norm with Hit's timeskip, Botamo etc.)

However it is also an essential part of the DB fandom, DB is about fighting, adventure and overcoming adversity by getting stronger, of course it will spark debates, and sometimes they can be really interesting: like who is actually stronger, a Saibaman or Raditz, Krillin or Tien. The problem comes when fans forget to suspend disbelief and actually get angry that 'SSJ2 Trunks is on SSJB Goku's level' (which if they pay attention isnt actually true, and who cares a yway the arc is great.)

I hope my thoughts are coherent enough on the matter.

Tl;dr: I think it hurts the fandom, its partly Toriyamas fault however some comparisons can spark really interesting conversations.

I feel like it becomes harmful when it becomes an addiction, and when people care more about the strength debate more than the story or the series itself. Yes it all comes down to writing, but just like fighting a strong opponent, it relies on more than strength.

As Meskoot said, ki in Dragon Ball (at least Z onwards) is really straightforward. You have the higher amount of ki, you're almost guaranteed to win. Those with special abilities or changes to attributes are really rare, and the latter was really only a big thing when Cell was around.

Compare this to a series like Naruto, where the higher chakra is more likely to win, but every technique is different, and some chakra can be nullified by other chakra.

In DBZ, Kamehameha = Masenko = Gyarikku Ho. Just performed by different people. Back in Dragon Ball, the fact that the Dodonpa had the force of a Kamehameha with the added benefit of no charge time was a game changer to the cast at the time.

But as I said in the beginning, some people are affected so much that small discrepancies ruin the story for them. Easiest note is the fight in the recent episode involving Trunks, despite how much the animation and action has improved. Even earlier in the arc, Black decided to defend himself against a standard Masenko, when he tanked literally everything else, and that's just Super, not anything else in the series.

I think it's the worst part about the community. And not only is it bad in regards to dragonbal itself, but it can get toxic when related to other media.

For example, watchmojo did a little video basically stating that Saitama would beat Goku. And of course several dragonball fans went wild. And I also have to point at Death Battle for the same thing.

There's this need that Goku has to be strongest being in all of fiction, and it's something I don't get.

To expand on what I said on Twitter, I'd say it all depends on the motivation and approach you're taking from the start. Are you treating power levels, with or without numbers involved, as trivia and just one part of the larger whole franchise and world? Or are you treating it as the end-all, be-all, number-one factor of the series and some sort of pseudoscience? Dragon Ball is an action series, so the strengths of the characters and how they compare to each other are obviously a big part of it, but still just one part nonetheless. Their strengths exist to serve the narrative, not the other way around.

The same holds true when talking about numbers applied to power levels. I constantly come across debates and discussions about numbers where the small handful of scouter readings from the series are picked apart almost down to the single-digit, and incredibly strict rules are then made up around them and treated like scientific fact. Many of the extra numbers established in guidebooks and such are callously discarded for not matching up exactly with number comparisons from the series and thus not following the "rules."

Now I'm kind of a power levels guy myself — the mechanics of these battles fascinate me and I enjoy making number lists as a form of fan-work. I even keep a power levels list for my fanfiction as a concise way to keep track of the battles I've planned. But this level of obsessive focus kind of flabbergasts me. I find myself constantly reminding people that "gaps are baloney" and that these clashes are between characters with individual strengths, weaknesses, and quirks, not two stationary turret robots firing beams at each other. When you approach a fight in a series with a mindset of "Fighter A must be at least 1.x times stronger than Fighter B for it to work this way," you've gone way deeper than the series itself and the people behind it ever did. Too deep, and now it's hurting your fandom.

But at the same time, to be fair, bad writing is still bad writing. Comparative character strengths aren't everything, but they're still a big something. If Yamcha showed up and gave Goku Black a better fight than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks did, with no explanation as to how or why, then we've got a big strength-related plot problem any way you slice it. An obvious flub like that can't just be dismissed with "oh, it's just a power levels hang-up, characters are as strong as they need to be, it doesn't matter." Displeasure and debate about things like that are totally justified and worth fussing over. Nothing quite that crazy has happened in Super yet, but a few things have come pretty close. Like Vegeta gaining awe-inspiring godly strength "through his own power" (a.k.a. "doing push-ups while Whis watches" from what we were shown), or baby Pan knowing how to fly innately somehow, or Freeza rivaling the gods after only 4 months, etc.

I've learned over the past few months to step back on the debates.

I've learned that there is too much contradicting evidence in these stories where both sides are actually correct. Leading to there literally not being a substantial objective answer, because there is literally a contradiction somewhere down the line.

Trying to Step back is a personal choice. If people want to debate it, I encourage it and I want to read it. I just don't want to debate any more.

I wish the writers didn't make such obvious mistakes. In Z, a lot of the contradictions were not as obvious. DBS' writers made some pretty awful and obvious ones this past week.

Oh, absolutely. Having people who believe so solemnly in a bunch of imaginary numbers that don't mean anything and never had any kind of reasonable logic attached to it, to the point where they either A: Trying to justify it in any conceivable way, which cans sometimes lead to some absurd ideas and theories, or B: Basically flinging their shit around and hating everything about an episode just because of that one insignificant thing.

I used to say that battle powers were the absolute worst thing to ever be introduced to any series ever. And I still partially stand by that, but they're less awful for the context in the series itself, and more because they make the fanbase just a more toxic place to have discussions in. It's really hard to go anywhere without constantly hearing the whining of "muh power levels", or huge lists of people with their own power level charts, or several hour long videos dedicated to ripping apart someone else's power chart for how "stupid and inaccurate" it is (somewhat ignoring the irony there), etc.

It hurts the fandom like this. EX: It implies that Vegeta resides in 2nd place due to the fact Goku is the better/ more skilled fighter, rather than just having more raw power. DBS relies on technique more now than it ever did.

I am coming at this question from the point of view of someone who has definitely had their fandom "harmed," by power scaling. DB is my favorite Dragon Ball series, and perhaps uncoincidentally, it's the LEAST reliant on power levels. I enjoy DBZ, since it's the first anime I watched and carries the weight of nostalgia with it. And regardless of that fact that by the Buu Saga only a handful of characters were still useful in fights, you can still clearly tell who's stronger than who in that series.

Super threw all of this out the window. Let's be honest here- Dragon Ball has never had a particularly complex or even a really good story. It's always been about who is the strongest and how can the good guys become stronger than the bad guys. And that's fine. But now in Super, nothing makes sense anymore. You need things like two-base theory to explain fights, there's no official word on whether the anime or the manga is higher canon, so people are left to pick and choose. It doesn't make sense who's stronger than who anymore. And given that Dragon Ball is all about knowing who's stronger, it ruins the series, or at least it has for me. I watch Super out of a feeling of obligation- not because I actually enjoy the story.

It is to some and to some not so much, but what do I mean by that?
There are many different kinds of people in every fandom,
there are casual fans that is just looking to enjoy the show and they don't care about any power scaling or plot holes or technicalities,
There are also the purist, these are the ones that dissect the show, this are the fans that are mostly in a heated but logical debate,
Then there are the fanbois, they are the ones that worship the show, it can do no wrong, a part of this Fanbois are the apologist, these the ones that make the fandom toxic, or in your own word, Harmful.
They will try to find ways to defend the show's shortcomings, even if these are normal, many shows have inconsistencies and plot holes in them,
but these will people won't stand for it, they will make absurd claim that the show is perfect.

So my simple answer is, it's not really harmful overall, debating strengths, power scaling and power levels is actually good, so we can have a deeper understanding of the show. That is how it's supposed to be, the only problem is those fanbois that make it harmful in these case, when there are inconsistencies.

I agree with you to a certain extent. Groups of fans getting angry with each other and throwing insults because they disagree on strength (such as the "which Buu is strongest" debate), is definitely detrimental to the fandom as a whole.

But on the other hand, I think it is reasonable to have sensible discussions about strength in order to try and make sense of the unclear mess we sometimes end up with from Toei/Toriyama (such as Super episode 57).

Dragon Ball is a series where relative strengths of characters is very important to the story, so I think it should be discussed to a degree, but it does get out of hand a lot of the time. So overall, I think it is only detrimental when it gets to the point where it's the only thing people focus on.

I'll just say it. I know battle powers were bullshit because they didn't predict any cast member's strength long term, but they were really fantastic for showing how far they'd come so far. Plus, when Goku at 8000 came up against Vegeta at 18000, we knew it was fucking on. Kaioken x1 (or x2 by default, I guess?) was never gonna be enough to match Vegeta unless, say, a stupid dubbing error lead you to believe Goku's battle power were exactly half of Vegeta's rather than notably shy of half.

When nobody we'd seen but Naaaaaaaaail and Frieza had a battle power over 40,000, man did it really make the Ginyu Force scary. And if for some reason made their whorf effect of Vegeta mean more (if not mean something in the first place).

I loved battle powers. I disliked when they were left behind. But it always bothers me when people say "power levels are bullshit". Being able to tell who is what strength is one of the things that allows tension to build for a fight, and not being able to put these on a concrete scale even after the fact is mildly frustrating, even if I accept it.

I disagree. I think it can be very healthy as long as people are able to keep their emotions and personal biases in check and actually have a debate instead of an argument/shit-flinging contest.

Having debates about strength or "power levels" while using facts and raw data can help the whole fandom (those that are willing to accept new knowledge instead of clinging to ignorance/bias) come to a greater understanding and acceptance of the series as a whole. The more we learn and understand an accept the easier it also becomes to bring other open-minded fans into the fold thus increasing our numbers.

Toriyama doesn't give a shit about power levels, and neither should we.

Honestly I think coming up with wild theories can more damaging.

None of you are professional anime writers, yet you are in this big hurry to prove that your shit idea is the one that's going to pan out. Then get disappointed when it does or even when it doesn't.

I could say that Freezer is Goku Black for instance, revived in Trunks' future using the Namek Dragon Balls by his army, similar to Resurrection 'F'. But instead of training he had the idea of using the Dragon Balls again to put himself in the now deceased Son Goku's body.

Because Son Goku is already dead the circumstances dictated that the body is immortal. While in our timeline Zamasu wished for immortality using the Super Dragon Balls.

Now how disappointed would you be in the show if this came to pass?

How disappointed would you be if Black was actually Goten from another alternate timeline?

What if it were something as stupid as a Dragon Ball wish to revive Son Goku but make him evil?

Well, I'm going to start off by saying I'm generally not a fan of in-universe explanations for those that have a perfectly reasonable out-of-universe answer. For example, I explain why Goku didn't go Super Saiyan 3 against Majin Vegeta by assuming Akira Toriyama hadn't thought of the concept at the time. Not because he thought it'd be too draining, not because he wanted to protect Vegeta's pride. The out-of-universe answer, to me, makes so much more sense that I have trouble justifying it in any other way.

It's why I've never been a fan of strength debates. The idea that you can justify an out-of-universe decision with in-universe logic is something that feels like a bit of a stretch for me. If the author was never thinking about the reasonings behind power levels, why should we care so much?

That being said, I sometimes overanalyse this series in terms of themes and character motivations, so perhaps power levels aren't too far removed from that. I'm trying to figure out what the difference between the two ideas are. Why is one something I love doing, and the other something I don't care at all about?

It seems like people in this thread really hate powerlevel discussion and theorycrafting kind of stuff. I genuinely find enjoyment in that kind of stuff so its a shame to see that its so frowned upon.

To respond specifically to your hypothesis though, Id say I have to agree. But I think the crux of the issue is not so much the subject matter, but rather that people dont know how to keep a discussion from turning into an argument.

I have written this before: I don't watch DB because of amazingly written characters or a great story. The power scaling etc. is an important part of the series, like it or not.

Same Cipher from your forums here, so feel free to throw this out if you want.

I've recently wound up subjecting myself to strength debates with Super and Super alone — primarily because Toriyama was always relatively consistent about characters' power, and Super, rather fascinatingly, is not. It's been interesting to speculate on what's been going on behind the scenes and what the actual intent is with regards to relative power. Though it will never be what draws me to the series, it's kind of a foregrounded and important element in terms of where the series finds its drama. Understanding very basically how the characters compare to one another, and maintaining some consistency, aids suspension of disbelief. (Yes, even in a Toriyama work where dog-people are kings and houses fit into pill-sized capsules.) In addition, comparisons between characters have been the main way to appreciate the increasing scale ever since visual capacity to depict high-level fights peaked in the Namek arc. So I understand people caring about character strength to the extent that it plays a role in the story.

What I've found, though, is that by and large fans who want to talk about strength aren't interested in the meta aspects, or being flexible with theatricality to just get a lock on main intent. Each new scene — despite the anime involving everyone from writers to storyboard artists to animators to directors — must be brought into line with an unyielding interpretation; everything is a codified statement about who's stronger than whom. Or rather, each scene dictates understanding of the larger story, rather than the other way around. If they don't all line up, suddenly nothing makes sense! Enjoyment and ability to talk about the series ruined!

That kind of approach is difficult to interact with, and I can't imagine it makes for a very satisfying way to watch or read the series. In a perfect world, I really would have someone watching out for that sort of consistency, just from a perspective of suspension of disbelief (Toriyama did well enough, despite undoubtedly barely caring), but in absence of that happening, people have to be flexible, to accept that meta elements can come to bear on the series. It can have errors and theatrical elements and still mostly cohere. We're not watching a battle simulator; we're supposed to be watching a story. Becoming that inflexible about displays of power can undermine your ability to enjoy a story that is mostly fine.*

On a related note, I've never understood the whole equations-and-numbers thing, especially for parts of the series that are already relatively clear, but that seems to be its own separate game people enjoy playing.

P.S. — Sorry I went and wrote a long response anyway. I hate how large blocks of text look on Reddit.

*I have some enormous problems with Super's storytelling, actually, but they have nothing to do with its displays of power.