Source
r/collapse•
kulmthestatusquo

The Complete Triumph of Capital over Labor - there is no more reason to placate the masses

What many people miss is that the classic 3 factor of production, Land, Capital and Labor, has collapsed.

Automation has made labor unnecessary, and it is just Land and Capital. Or, Land, Capital and Technology.

People have ceased to matter. Without firepower they are hapless to resist.

With labor no longer necessary since machines and web-based solutions do all the work, laborers are no longer necessary as well.

All the good locations having bought out by those with access to cheap capital, the masses will be driven to shantytowns, safely out of the zones where the beautiful people live.

The rules of game have changed. Those who harness capital live, those who don't die. Some lucky people, by the accident of birth or by luck who ended up with some choice bits of real estate, will hunker down with what they have, knowing there won't be another.

All labor laws, including workers' comp or the prohibition of stiffing wages, will disappear since the laborers have lost their political power.

Instead of a general collapse, it will suddenly look like South America of the old days, with ranches bigger than many European nations and owners living better than kings, complete with very poor laborers who can be killed by the whim of the foreman, usually a relative of the owner.

People might call it collapse. That is probably going to be true. No more mass consumption, no more prosperity, no more higher standard of living. Instead people will be owned by the capital institutions or the owner of the land where they build their shacks.

And, like the old days when only those who owned property was able to vote, democracy disappears and will be replaced by something like the old Roman Senate.

The century of nicer living for the ordinary people having ended, collapse and technical innovation which will reach the stars will go hand in hand, as shown in North Korea which has both ox-driven carts and space satellites.

Posted Nov 20, 2016, 9:22 AM UTC · edited

48110
Archimid•

Bet you a million dollars that the value of money collapses.

12
STL_Tim•

Actually, even if you are right (and I tend to agree), you are on the wrong side of that bet. Think about the payoff for the 2 possible outcomes...

9
WooTzZ•

One billion dollars, Zimbabwean style

4
El_Huachinango•

Brilliant.

1
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Yes. and will probably be replaced by something else, like bitcoin but something controllable by the Winners.

0
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

controllable

An adorable assumption.

4
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Google, Facebook, etc are all good friends of government (read: TPTB)

yes, there will be controllable blockchains.

1
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

Who's in charge of the subatomic particles jiggling around in your mind? I have a pretty good idea of what's actually in charge (just waiting for science to catch up). Want to take a guess what it is?

2
Archimid•

My bet is trade.

3
kulmthestatusquoOP•

To trade something a line of credit is needed, and it will have to be denominated by something.

1
Archimid•

Thats an assumption valid only within the current paradigm.

5
ShlammiCollapse is coming•

If those digits vanish they won't come back.

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Correct. It is not coming back.

What will probably happen is the debts of the 'worthy' will be refinanced at $1,000:1 or that kind of lopsided ratio, while the debts of the ordinary people will continue to be collected in the same rate, to starve out the ordinary.

2
ShlammiCollapse is coming•

Nothing is really preventing those that guard the elite from eating them.

3
godiebiel•

In western world labor itself has been dying since 1980's. The importance of middle class was then to sustain consumption, even if credit based.

Sadly not even as "consumers" is the middle class needed as credit tightening has lead more and more people to save.

12
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Right, and with the rise of higher-spending people in China and other Third World, the western middle class is not needed anymore since these people are doing all the consumption. And the western m class is becoming a huge military liability, which means it will have to be dealt with soon.

6
godiebiel•

Developed middle class is a political liability, mainly because of voting system. This is the reasoning for mass immigration policies in EU, Obama's illegal immigration amnesty and other "pro-minorities" incentives.

Of course any anti-immigration discourse is dismissed as "racism" or even "white supremacist" but this is all part of smoke and mirrors.

But in the end the classic "developed middle class" is a liability, for the current political establishment.

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Correct, and they will probably be destroyed. The middle class is still too comfortable to realize it.

1
vardarac•

How do you see this happening? How does one avoid it?

2
koko4kaka•

Developed middle class is a political liability, mainly because of voting system. This is the reasoning for mass immigration policies in EU, Obama's illegal immigration amnesty and other "pro-minorities" incentives.

immigrants can not vote, bulletproof "logic" you got going there buckaroo.

1
MakeTotalDestr0iGo to r/MakeTotalDestr0i for Collapse Science•

There are plenty of people waiting to kill the master.

Just waiting for the moment.

some of those are law enforcement supposed to protect them. Some are military who don't take well to the ideas of an elite or north korea-like situation .

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kulmthestatusquoOP•

The master has enough bodyguards to protect himself.

There is a critical mass who will prefer a NK-like state of things since that means they are the top dogs in that world. All the elites have to take care of is the critical mass of their praetorian guards.

3
ILOVEFISHANDCHIPS•

The master has enough bodyguards to protect himself.

Only so long as the majority are satisfied, otherwise the mob mentality rules.

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

The moguls in India and Brazil are safe and secure in their compounds although everyone in the street would rather catch them and kill them. Modern security is quite strong and brutal.;

1
maiqtheliar•

They've gotta come out some time.

2
MakeTotalDestr0iGo to r/MakeTotalDestr0i for Collapse Science•

they will not hold back 8 billion plebs they can't even win in iraq

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

If they were determined to kill every living thing in Iraq they could won, like the Chinese Emperor Qianlong who killed every single Dzungar nomad , and vanquished it once for all by extermination.

1
MakeTotalDestr0iGo to r/MakeTotalDestr0i for Collapse Science•

zero chance

2
HillaryBrokeTheLaw•

Automation requires energy. Even in the renewable future, you will have humans in the bowels of the earth.

Automation requires maintenance. It will be extremely difficult if not impossible to combine the adaptive elements that make human labor so valuable.

Human labor is not going to disappear because of the robots. The need for human labor is going to disappear because of the collapse in demand for consumer goods due to population overshoot.

Keep living in fantasyland, and blame the inevitability of technology rather than the greedy fucks who are destroying the planet for the sake of the egos.

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kulmthestatusquoOP•

With much fewer people consuming, much less energy is needed to keep things going.

What will probably happen is those needed for the maintenance will be given some kind of title and perks, and make it hereditary so they can fight off any competition, somewhat like the medieval artisans who fought for their privilege tooth and nail and remained relevant all the way to the 19th century when machines finally made them obsolete. (the last holdout of such guilds is AMA, which will probably become irrelevant by 2030)

Again, that is technofeudalism. Because capitalism is no longer sustainable by the remaining resources, it is downsizing into something manageable but still retaining technical possibilities to advance.

4
once_said_blah•

But how do businesses make money if no one can afford to buy their product or service?

5
Introscopia•

In the scenario OP paints, why do the owners need money? They're completely self-sufficient within their little kingdoms. Money is a tool they don't need anymore, this is the endgame.

8
once_said_blah•

But what about their security and staff? And the families of said staff? It doesn't end well for the elites. Eventually there will be a correction.

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Introscopia•

what about their security and staff? And the families of said staff

I'm sorry, but, as an argument this is really weaksauce. I don't know what to tell you. You can't envision a system where automation and various technologies as well as some form of slave labor props up an elite class which includes all the staff and families?

3
once_said_blah•

I can imagine them trying. Then I imagine the rest of humanity steamrolling over their safe zone.

Not that it matters. Money won't save them from climate change. They'll suffocate with the rest of us.

1
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Correct. Money is not need since their tech can produce everything they need and their techies, now called artisans and given some kind of title, will continue to develop techs in return for some favors and the guarantee to not be kicked out from their safe compounds. Just like Venice.

1
kulmthestatusquoOP•

It will not. So lots of them will fail, and will be picked up pennies on dollar by larger companies who have cash.

2
wobinidan•

Without consumers, everything grinds to a halt. Research and development is expensive, it makes no sense to design a new iPhone for 500 billionaires. Things like medical treatment come to a standstill too, with so few people able to pick up the bill.

They need us, still.

3
Viat0r•

You don't need the boss, the boss needs you!

1
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Yes, that's true, however medical research for the bosses will take place, with means which will not be considered ethical today. Of course consumer goods will no longer be researched because there is o need for it.

1
blackmon2•

  • They can just keep their money instead of giving some of it to workers.

  • Some of them can just sell to rich people only.

  • Maybe governments will pay big companies money for whatever.

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Governments, banks and the big companies become one and the same to drive out the people from existence.

1
archivefile•

That's a good question. Fiat currency will be replaced by gold.

-1
creepindacellar•

But how do businesses make GOLD if no one can afford to buy their product or service?

3
kulmthestatusquoOP•

They can trade among themselves. There were only 40 million consumers in 1913, and the world economy operated seamlessly.

2
creepindacellar•

did they have 11 Million Millionaires and 540 billionaires to support in 1913?

2
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

Since you like brain technology - let me tell you the future of our species. Right now DARPA is researching direct brain stimulation. You can find various articles on mainstream-enough sites that make it clear they're interested in treating issues like traumatic brain injury and they're interested in enhancement (e.g. "electronic caffeine").

Of course, we know what anyone interested in power would really be after.

What's going to happen when we start relying on computers for the way our brains function? I want you to guess, because then I'll tell you the correct answer.

5
scooterdoop•

this, ultimately: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFe9wiDfb0E

5
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

A challenger appears.

3
scooterdoop•

haha, glorious. I love Heather-Anne Campbell (she writes/co-writes a lot of those)

2
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

Heather-Anne Campbel

Awesome, I hadn't paid attention.

1
WooTzZ•

We'll become slaves in the matrix while they ascend to become Skynet?

3
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

What will happen is that the resulting techo-biological super-organism will have enslaved itself to ensure its survival. There will be nothing "free".

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

That is still techno-biological superorganisn, an improvement over barbarism.

1
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

I'd say it's the logical extrapolation. The small hoard raids the village. The large hoard raids the planet. Subjectivity will create sentiment that interferes with resource extraction and resource extraction must occur to mitigate existential risk. Most of those pesky human feelings are going to be deleted (also removes a huge hacking vector). It's the only way to be sure.

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Correct, although they would rather leave the earth and let Skynet control the rest.

1
StarChild413•

For all we know, we already are

1
margobisbeeCapitalism in decay•

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzLJqs1lpZs

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EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

I've been thinking about trying to mess with this myself given that it's so intriguing and the technology keeps coming up. (What could possibly go wrong of course?)

There are two issues here: Imagine that we could do "anything" we want with the human brain. The question is then - where do we go? The problem is that there's no "answer" to this, and wherever you go gets you potentially "stuck" there - just like with evolution, which can only work with whatever it's already made.

The second issue is the fact that, as computers become better at making decisions, we'll want to make those same decisions. So why not have those decisions put into the brain directly? The group of people most willing to "enslave" their brains to computers will have the greatest competitive edge. Game theory means that humans are going to enslave their minds to computers, basically - and I see little way to stop this if the technology is inevitable. Then there's hacking of course :)

2
youtubefactsbot•

Radiolab from WNYC 9 Volt Nirvana [38:24]

Radiolab from WNYC --- 9-Volt Nirvana Thursday, June 26, 2014 - 03:17 PM Learn a new language faster than ever! Leave doubt in the dust! Be a better sniper! .

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1
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Short answer - we become cyborgs, or transhumans which is the preferred lingo among those interested in this kind of stuff.

Long answer - the 'winners' are integrated into machines, which will be immortal for all practical purposes, and eventually they will fly to the space , away from the earth's pollution.

1
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

Computers would be ultimately superior to people as far as existential decisions are concerned. Given that it would be stupid to take the risk of "always keeping raw human machinery in the loop", some humans would eventually have their minds enslaved to computers. And once a few people have done this ...

If people were integrated into machines, their consciousness would be hacked (by human/AI/hybrid). You want a hacker creating a virtual, unending hell? I promise you this would happen if such a thing were possible.

See what I'm saying? If the technology is possible, it will happen, and when it happens humans will not only enslave themselves, but also create hell. Isn't that interesting?

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Actually I don't think computers will exceed some humans, because of the inherent limitations.

-- Some transhumans will be in hell, but those who created the hell for these hapless beings will be the rulers, just like those bombing hapless third world countries are not going to face the consequeces of their actions.

1
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

If computers can hypothetically hold consciousness (I'm skeptical), by definition they're far superior. We can't do what computers can, but they can do us? I know what my money is on.

2
StarChild413•

See what I'm saying? If the technology is possible, it will happen, and when it happens humans will not only enslave themselves, but also create hell. Isn't that interesting?

I don't believe this theory but crack theory: this is why the world sucks if you get my drift

1
EntropyAnimalsSee the Machine•

The world sucks because our species is retarded.

1
koko4kaka•

People tend to deify that which they don't understand.

Which is why posters, like OP, who fetishize the elites and technology do so because they lack any contact with the former or understanding of the latter.

4
scooterdoop•

r/manna

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kulmthestatusquoOP•

Read it a few times, although Marshall Brain should have omitted the unnecessary second half.

1
mcapello•

Automation has made labor unnecessary,

Once again, you're living in a fantasy. The very machine you're writing this post on was probably assembled by several different people working in a factory.

People have ceased to matter. Without firepower they are hapless to resist.

... people have firepower. In fact, people have all the firepower. Even "unmanned" drones are flown by humans.

All the good locations having bought out by those with access to cheap capital, the masses will be driven to shantytowns, safely out of the zones where the beautiful people live.

I thought you said people didn't matter anymore?

The rules of game have changed. Those who harness capital live, those who don't die.

Right, because people don't steal, revolt, or raid when the going gets tough. They're going to peacefully sit there and die. Riiiight.

Once again, you're shitposting your fantasy fiction onto a collapse sub. I wish the moderators would do something.

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

The people do not matter so they will be kicked out of economic life and put into wilderness to wait for their deaths.

Irish famine, bengal famine, etc did not see widespread revolts. And, important parts of New Orleans were pacified by people like the "American Sniper"

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/09/us/chris-kyle-american-sniper/

(he conveniently died before the controversy occurred, saving the higher-ups a lot of trouble)

Hungry people are dispirited and weaker. They are less likely to be violent than junkies who are looking for their next fix.

2
mcapello•

The people do not matter so they will be kicked out of economic life and put into wilderness to wait for their deaths.

You might as well say that they'll vanish into thin air, or turn into mermaids and swim into the sea. What you're proposing violates every possible notion of human nature.

Hungry people are dispirited and weaker. They are less likely to be violent than junkies who are looking for their next fix.

Everyone who's resorted to cannibalism in a starvation scenario says otherwise. Once again, your understanding of human nature is better suited to a fantasy novel than reality. It is naive in the extreme.

3
kulmthestatusquoOP•

Human nature? Francis Tresham, the ancestor of the inventor of the Civilization and various railroad board games, did not think twice before evicting the tenants to the cold to die, and similar things occurred in Scotland and Ireland many times. People were not that nice back then.

Starving people resorted to cannibalism. However when there is no other human to kill and eat, what would they do?

1
mcapello•

Human nature? Francis Tresham, the ancestor of the inventor of the Civilization and various railroad board games, did not think twice before evicting the tenants to the cold to die, and similar things occurred in Scotland and Ireland many times. People were not that nice back then.

Once again, every peasant revolt and food riot in history proves you wrong. Your view is only possible if you ignore 99.99% of human history and only cherry-pick the bizarre examples that fit your fictitious and fantastical view.

Starving people resorted to cannibalism. However when there is no other human to kill and eat, what would they do?

You're ignoring the point of the example. Starving people will take to extreme measures in order to survive all the time.

3
8footpenguin•

I'm not sure why so many people think robots are going to replace human labor any time in the foreseeable future.

Imagine your average reasonably competent human being. Now imagine that human being as a robot. It's easily the most advanced robot on earth. Every other robot is basically a piece of shit compared to this thing. You can hire this super advanced robot for 10 bucks an hour...

I get it, robots don't need to sleep or take breaks, they don't steal, etc. Certain tasks don't really need humans and they have been or will soon be automated. Yet, corporate interests have worked long and hard to ensure that human workers are desperate for jobs and will accept low pay and shitty working conditions. Human labor isn't going anywhere, but jobs are going to keep getting shittier until we'll all probably wish the robots would just come and kill us.

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

What will happen is automation is much cheaper. No need to pay wages, cover insurance, worker's comp, etc. And they do not make mistakes, so those who employ it will have more advantage over those who don't.

Gig jobs will be the norm. Like uber (although driving is going out as well). With no steady income, one is less likely to build relationships or create a family, ensuring pop control and reproduction only for capital owners and the few lucky supersmart techies who hold up the system.

1
stoplying2me•

The extreme selfish and hoarding sociopaths we call elites are subject to the same degradation of our environment as the rest of us... they'll just survive a little longer, but in the end they will perish like us all.

I'll be gone... but i"m happy they will suffer too

2
kulmthestatusquoOP•

That is true, so the objective is make something to escape the earth before that comes to pass, and culling the world's pop does gain a century for them to build their spaceships.

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