Phosphatidyl Choline for liver repair? Anyone have any experience?
researchgate.net/profile/Parris_Kidd2/publica...Posted Sep 26, 2017, 3:20 AM UTC
Posted Sep 26, 2017, 3:20 AM UTC
i have genetic nonalcoholic fatty liver and phosphatidyl choline is great for it. I use sunflower lecithin. So is dessicated liver (contains many nutrients needed for a healthy liver, like zinc, A, and active versions B12, B6, and folate), TUDCA, methionine, and threonine. You should also look into milk thistle and a blend called Stone Free (good for general biliary health, not just stones).
I had severe liver pain and problems with bile getting blocked when I was a teenager, and then again in my mid-20s. Now my liver is pretty normal: no pain, no digestive issues.
Careful with milk thistle, as it inhibits CYP3A4, a cytochrome responsible for metabolizing many drugs and may affect the way you metabolize medication, allowing it to stay in your blood for longer.
Thanks a lot! Really appreciate it. Can you provide your dose history for these compounds? Again very much appreciated.
Sunflower lecithin: used NOW brand softgels, started with 1 AM and 1 PM with meals, but after my symptoms got better I went down to 1 per day, then eventually none.
Dessicated liver: I use Perfect brand, which recommends 4 per day. I still take all four per day because I actually can’t synthesize A, B6, B12, or folate on my own due to genetics (this is why some people with my nonalcoholic fatty liver mutation never get serious symptoms; my genetics are a liver-ruining clusterfuck of bad synergies). I take them all AM for energy. I have taken more than four per day, but not for liver symptoms, just nutrient issues. You’ll have to see how you react to it and figure out a dose because I’ve never met someone who had the same combo of terrible genes, lol.
TUDCA: hard to remember, it was twice a day, I think 250mg capsules. I dropped down to one per day once symptoms got much better, then stopped. It’s INCREDIBLY effective so it’s worth the expense, but it’s too expensive for me to take regularly. I try to do a bottle a few times per year, taking 1 capsule per day, for maintenance as needed.
Methionine and threonine: 500 mg of each per day, sometimes twice per day. These work together in your liver so it can be a bad idea to take one without the other. For a long time I didn’t know that about threonine and only took methionine because it was mentioned more often, then ended up with a threonine deficiency where I had to stop taking methionine for a bit and take 2 grams of threonine per day for a bit. Took me MONTHS to figure out what was wrong.
Milk thistle: I used Jarrow brand, started at 1 AM and 1 PM, then decreased with improvement. Heed the other commenter’s warning though.
Stone Free: Whatever the bottle said, I did. iirc it was several tablets a few times per day. Decreased with improvement.
I also forgot to mention Liv.52; I took a couple bottles of that, 1 tablet twice per day, for quite a long time. It’s super cheap if you get it delivered from India off Amazon. It was good cheap maintance. I still have many bottles I give away sometimes from a bulk order.
Oh, and I forgot TMG! That can be pretty important. It has pretty powerful effects (especially on stuff like methylation) though so dosage is going to vary wildly from person to person. For a while I was taking TWO GRAMS per day which is kind of a lot. Some people can’t handle more than 500 mg.
Zinc: you may need more than the liver provides. Familiarize yourself with symptoms of zinc deficiency. If you think you need more, I recommend Jarrow Zinc Balance: it will keep you from getting a copper deficiency (very common with supplemental zinc) and the doses are small enough you have a lot of flexibility in taking only as much as you need. (I have a bottle of 50mg zinc from when I was severely deficient but I avoid taking that much now because it really causes problems when you don’t need it.)
You might also look into lipase enzymes, especially if you are overweight. Pancreatin can also be helpful in some cases; the whole biliary system is tangled together and sometimes issues in one organ are just domino effects due to issues in another one, and it’s not always intuitive. Also, when one organ in the system is messed up, the other ones start getting messed up and need support too.
Good luck, hope this helps!
Thank you so much this is very valuable to me. I will begin to incorporate some of these suggestions one by one and see how I feel and how the blood looks. I will start with lichitin, vitamin e, and zinc. By the way I am also taking 5-10mg melatonin daily which has shown some liver protective action in rats and helps me sleep better. Then I will attack each thing in the list one by one with due diligence.
Thanks again!!
No problem, let me know if it helps, or if you need more help or have questions! I know how much it can suck to have liver problems, and my doctors were completely worthless so I had to learn it all and fix it myself. Since then I have fixed a few people's livers who found me via Amazon reviews. Have yet to find anyone this hasn't worked for, and on the off chance it doesn't work for you I am also experienced digging through 23andMe reports for more unusual causes.
btw, if the ones you start with don't get the job done, I recommend adding in the dessicated liver and TUDCA next.
You'd be better off just sticking with Vitamin E - most studies are 800 or 1000 IU (1500 IU is the upper limit for an adult) - and there's a lot of studies showing the efficacy of improving liver enzyme levels.
But any form of hepatitis - be it viral, alcoholic, or non-alcoholic - needs to be taken seriously.
You shouldn't be on this subreddit - or any part of Reddit really - to get advice on treating any form of hepatitis. Talk to your gastroenterologist and follow what they say. If you feel they're not treating you properly again, don't come here, find another GI that you feel more comfortable with.
Not trying to be hostile, not at all, just underscoring how important it is to take any form of hepatitis seriously.
I have PSC for which the treatment is none. Thanks for the Vitamin E suggestion. I was mainly wondering if anyone had any knowledge outside of what I have gathered from this study that I came across while researching different types of choline.
I'm very sorry to hear about your condition, however I wouldn't say that there's no treatment. Nutritional medicine is a thing, and while your doctor might slightly eye-roll at the title of "nutritional medicine" I'm not over here on a soapbox about it. Basically it boils down to eating betting to improve your condition, and in your case that's definitely doable.
There's a LOT you can do in this department thankfully!
Foremost - alcohol. It no longer exists to you.
Second - water. Drink a lot of water. Lots and lots of water. You know that annoying fucker at the grocery store with that big jug of water that makes you think "ugh we get it - you work out." Be that guy. You want to be very very hydrated.
Third - your diet. Your GI should have some strong words to say about the importance of diet and managing inflammation as well as providing nutrients that have anti-inflammatory effects. Plus there's some obvious things you can do like avoiding high-fat foods that require bile secretion to digest.
Finally - You can supplement vitamins (many people with your condition are actually deficient) for both the structural assistance that high volumes can provide as well as the anti-inflammatory properties to help reduce the cirrhosis process.
Ultimately you're looking at a liver transplant down the line unless there's some major medical breakthrough on the subject....
OR
You arrest the inflammatory process and stop the cirrhosis. You need to pay attention to your GI, keep getting your liver levels checked, and try to live the best life you can live.
Oh yeah for sure I changed my life all around. I'm becoming a pretty decent strength and endurance athlete and trying to live as wholesome as possible. But I do have cirrhosis (normal function). I managed to lower my fibrosis score over the past year. Hopefully I can keep that up. If I can take something that can take the edge off some of the fibrosis that's a win for me.
Thanks for your responses, I really appreciate it.
It’s actually important to get all the nutrients necessary for liver health. Sticking to just one is a bad idea as it will deplete the others. A person can take all the E they want and it won’t repair cell membranes if the choline isn’t present.
Of course it's important to get all of the vitamins - I actually pointed out in my second reply that people with PSC tend to be vitamin deficient across the board - but Vitamin E especially has been repeatedly proven in peer-reviewed study after study that 800-1000 IU per day will cause reductions in liver enzymes.
Hypervitaminosis E really only comes into play when you go past 1500 IU per day. The main concern there is the decrease in clotting factor, but if you keep going higher you can also lead to a breakdown of vitamin K specifically, which leads to a deficiency in Vitamin K.
But OP taking 800-1000 IU of Vitamin E is incredibly unlikely to cause Hypervitaminosis E. It's nigh impossible for that level to cause a clotting factor problem, and it certainly won't cause a breakdown in Vitamin K.
But, of course, OP should be following the advice of his/her gastroenterologist.
I said literally nothing about getting too much vitamin E.