r/geek•
agenthex

IDEA: "Network Hostility:" Coordinated response to political deregulation of network accessibility (anti-"net neutrality")

TL;DR: We need an automated method (e.g. Apache plugin) for rejecting access to a service based on the connecting ISP (and their behavior regarding network neutrality.

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Given the fact that the FCC is bent on deregulating network neutrality for internet providers, We the People need a direct and targeted response to the threat of providers that fail to respect the spirit of network neutrality.

This response would be most effectively implemented as a software plugin for Web server software such as Apache or IIS. Simply enough, if the IP address of the client connecting belongs to a given ISP in a list curated by an organization such as the Electronic Frontier Foundation, then access is rejected with an explanation as to why (reasons such as anti-competitive prioritization). The list can be updated automatically (or neutralized, if the threat ever disappears).

In effect, we fight fire with fire by making it impossible for disrespectful providers to take advantage of any service from a provider flagged in the list. Let the little guys band together, make a nuisance, and get the word out.

Posted Dec 14, 2017, 7:27 PM UTC

8215
ILikeBumblebees•

This is a terrible idea, and diminishes rather than strengthens net neutrality.

This strategy seems like a coordinated political maneuver, intended to "send a message" and motivate political action, rather than to simply address the problem and directly preserve net neutrality.

Given that the current threat to net neutrality is the (entirely predictable) consequence of politicizing the question in the first place, and allowing net neutrality to be construed as something to be sustained by regulatory intervention by a bureaucracy that's always been easily co-optable by the targets of regulation, it makes little sense to continue to fight the battle via the means of politics.

The correct solution to the problem is to go back to construing net neutrality as something to be sustained by the bottom-up complex of market incentives and technical constraints that prevailed for decades prior to the question being politicized. The best thing to focus on at the moment is propagating technology that makes breaches of net neutrality less and less feasible, i.e. promoting:

  • end-to-end encryption, stifling attempts at packing inspection to enable content-based discrimination;
  • development of decentralized, federated protocols in place of the centralized walled-garden applications that have become increasingly prevalent on the internet over the past 10-15 years;
  • enabling alternatives to traditional ISPs, both by increasing the competitive landscape with currently feasible technologies (e.g. WiMax) and by working towards the long term viability of even more decentralized technologes such as mesh networking.

This is a technical problem and a market problem, not a political one, and making it into a political issue is the thing most likely to put control over the outcome in the hands of adversarial interests.

4†
agenthexOP•

On the contrary. This idea is to be applied when net neutrality is revoked.

Also, I'm not suggesting that VPN access be blocked (unless the operator wants to).

This is a terrible idea, and diminishes rather than strengthens net neutrality.

Hey, I'm not the one who started the debate about dismantling net neutrality, but if it dies, then I'm 100% OK with being the one to drop a nuke on what's left.

  • end-to-end encryption, stifling attempts at packing inspection to enable content-based discrimination;
  • development of decentralized, federated protocols in place of the centralized walled-garden applications that have become increasingly prevalent on the internet over the past 10-15 years;
  • enabling alternatives to traditional ISPs, both by increasing the competitive landscape with currently feasible technologies (e.g. WiMax) and by working towards the long term viability of even more decentralized technologes such as mesh networking.
  1. Encryption is a start, but your ISP might still throttle data that is coming from, say, Netflix, regardless of its encrypted status.

  2. Companies love their walled gardens. Good luck getting them to give that up.

  3. Good luck with that. Nobody is willing to do the work.

This is a technical problem and a market problem, not a political one, and making it into a political issue is the thing most likely to put control over the outcome in the hands of adversarial interests.

It is a political issue and will remain a political issue until net neutrality is abolished.

0
ILikeBumblebees•

On the contrary. This idea is to be applied when net neutrality is revoked.

How can net neutrality itself be "revoked"?

Hey, I'm not the one who started the debate about dismantling net neutrality, but if it dies, then I'm 100% OK with being the one to drop a nuke on what's left.

There doesn't seem to be any clear and manifest threat to net neutrality apart from people politicizing the matter, and it seems like your proposal plays directly into that problem. In other words, what you're suggesting would be advantageous to the people who want to dismantle net neutrality, rather than an obstacle for them.

  1. Encryption is a start, but your ISP might still throttle data that is coming from, say, Netflix, regardless of its encrypted status.

Only if they know it's coming from Netflix, but there's no reason why they need to know that -- a very large portion of the data traversing the internet today is already routed through large-scale CDNs, and there's no reason why the particular user of a given CDN needs to be known to the endpoint ISP. They'd have to throttle all connections to e.g. Akamai or Cloudfront, which would effectively amount to throttling all traffic indiscriminately.

  1. Companies love their walled gardens. Good luck getting them to give that up.

The problem isn't that "companies" love walled gardens, the problem is that users do. A well-organized effort by FOSS communities to bring open and decentralized platforms up to the same level of usability as walled-garden offerings will go a long way to mitigate the problem.

  1. Good luck with that. Nobody is willing to do the work.

Manifestly false, given the vast amount of work that people are already putting into open-source projects.

It is a political issue and will remain a political issue until net neutrality is abolished.

Net neutrality can only be "abolished" if it's allowed to be dependent on politics in the first place!

2
agenthexOP•

How can net neutrality itself be "revoked"?

"Net neutrality" refers to the rules that the FCC imposes on internet service providers. By eliminating the rules that bind ISPs, net neutrality is effectively revoked.

There doesn't seem to be any clear and manifest threat to net neutrality apart from people politicizing the matter

Net neutrality is a policy. It makes sense that any threat to a policy is political.

but there's no reason why they need to know [the source or destination]

Except that every internet packet contains source and destination address information. It's true that you can hide specific details of content within the distribution scheme of that content, but if the content provider is (for example) Netflix, then the content itself might not matter. The fact that the IP data contains Netflix's address as the source of content means that any ISP can block/throttle/shape the traffic throughput for any number of reasons (soon to include "because competition"). Sure, it doesn't mean they need to know that, but it puts undue burden on content and service providers to hide their traffic in a larger distribution scheme.

A well-organized effort by FOSS communities to bring open and decentralized platforms up to the same level of usability as walled-garden offerings

A ridiculous amount of effort for near-zero return.

Users couldn't give a shit about walled garden apps. Downloading the Netflix app instead of playing in a browser is mildly annoying, but it allows Netflix to inject DRM and other methods of control over user behavior.

given the vast amount of work that people are already putting into open-source projects.

I think you vastly overestimate the amount of work that people are putting into open-source projects. Sure, plenty of libre software exists, but this is pure altruistic benefit. Most "open source" developers don't make money from their projects. In fact, I frequently see pleas for users to contribute financially to the development of a project. Given the precedent, I don't expect a pot of gold to be waiting for anyone who solves this problem. That's not to say people won't clamor for it. They just won't lift a fucking finger to make it happen.

1
ILikeBumblebees•

"Net neutrality" refers to the rules that the FCC imposes on internet service providers

No, it doesn't. "Net neutrality" refers to a state of affairs in which ISPs price bandwidth as a commodity without content- or destination-based discrimination.

The idea that this state of affairs must be sustained by regulatory intervention is highly dubious, and your verbal conflation of net neutrality itself with regulatory rules ostensibly intended to protect it is part of the problem.

Net neutrality is a policy.

Again, incorrect. The FCCs policy was -- on the surface -- intended to uphold net neutrality, but the policy and the state of affairs it's aimed to perpetuate are two different things.

Except that every internet packet contains source and destination address information.

From the perspective of the endpoint ISP, the source of every packet transmitted via a CDN is the CDN itself.

The fact that the IP data contains Netflix's address as the source of content

It doesn't. The inbound packet is coming from the CDN, not from Netflix.

A ridiculous amount of effort for near-zero return.

And squandering resources on political activism for a return on the other side of zero is a better plan?

Users couldn't give a shit about walled garden apps. Downloading the Netflix app instead of playing in a browser is mildly annoying, but it allows Netflix to inject DRM and other methods of control over user behavior.

What are you talking about? What does whether the client is in a browser or a standalone app have to do with anything we're discussing?

I think you vastly overestimate the amount of work that people are putting into open-source projects.

I don't think I am, given the manifestly extant range of open-source software in widespread use.

0
divv•

If you build it, they will come.

3

Yeah, no. This really only makes things worse. The big guys (reddit, facebook, google) who already stand to gain from NN being nixed will not use this plugin.

What we really need is a way to serve pages without a client/server config. Encrypted P2P web services are the only way we can protect the free exchange of information without relying on government (and we can't rely on government -- not when obama was around, and not now).

Even if ISPs manage to block direct connections between any IPs not registered as a "server" or what the fuck ever, some autistic genius will develop a kickass mesh network that can be installed on consumer wifi routers. Another will build a cheap device to jump larger gaps. Only then, when the entirety of the infrastructure is out of the hands of networking giants, will the web be free.

It will also be slow as shit, but hey, Netflix will be prioritized on the legacy internet anyway.

2
agenthexOP•

Yeah, no. This really only makes things worse. The big guys (reddit, facebook, google) who already stand to gain from NN being nixed will not use this plugin.

I never expected them to use this idea. I expect those with smaller voices to use this to coordinate.

some autistic genius will develop a kickass mesh network that can be installed on consumer wifi routers. Another will build a cheap device to jump larger gaps. Only then, when the entirety of the infrastructure is out of the hands of networking giants, will the web be free.

So... never? Never sounds about right.

Frankly, I don't expect people to understand. As a result, I expect the internet to fall to pieces (slow, unreliable connectivity at exorbitant cost). Oh well...

1

Yeah, no. This really only makes things worse. The big guys (reddit, facebook, google) who already stand to gain from NN being nixed will not use this plugin.

I never expected them to use this idea. I expect those with smaller voices to use this to coordinate.

Yeah and that's why it's a stupid idea.

some autistic genius will develop a kickass mesh network that can be installed on consumer wifi routers. Another will build a cheap device to jump larger gaps. Only then, when the entirety of the infrastructure is out of the hands of networking giants, will the web be free.

So... never? Never sounds about right.

Why don't you google "mesh net", " tor", or "peer to peer Web" . The ground work is already there champ.

Frankly, I don't expect people to understand. As a result, I expect the internet to fall to pieces (slow, unreliable connectivity at exorbitant cost). Oh well...

Well you're suggesting shit plans and shutting down practical ideas so yeah. I agree, definite lack of understanding among typical americans.

1
Team_Braniel•

We do need a transparency plugin that outlines how throttled each packet is getting and how much data is authentic user data vs. Adds and ISP bloat.

If I have to pay extra for streaming then i need a guarantee im getting what i paid for.

1
generic12345689•

People will find ways around the censorship. Let’s see what they do first. Also we have congress and can apply pressure to get it changed again.

1
james_hamilton1234•

There is another option. Its possible but it sucks. No one uses the internet until net neutrality is put back into place. We (well you Americans - I'm in Canada) can boycott using or buying internet services - at least from the major ISPs who have the most to gain. If no one is gonna use their internet services, Ajit Pai doesn't get an extra paycheck. Yes it will hurt literally everyone from the employees in Comcast, Verizon, etc. To the businesses to the regular people at home.

But it still is an option.

1
agenthexOP•

No one uses the internet until net neutrality is put back into place.

That's my plan. I'm trying to get others onboard.

Nobody is willing to cut the diseased tissue from the wound. As a result, they can enjoy paying through the nose for garbage.

2