In the UK, Protest Israeli Occupation of Palestine and Face Racism Charge in Court
news.scotsman.com/uk/Palestinian--protesters-...Posted Mar 8, 2009, 4:12 PM UTC
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news.scotsman.com
I'm definitely on the pro-Palestinian side of the line in this conflict but even I see this as stupid. They interrupted a performance purely on the grounds the group in question is Jewish. They have in fact equated Jeudaism and Israel which makes it a rascist act, even unwittingly. Not that the right of protest gives you the right to interrupt such performances in any case.
If they protested the occupation of Palestine in the normal manner they'd be allowed to do so. Something like the Iraq war march would be allowed.
Irrespective it is important to draw the line between three different positions:
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Anti-semitism
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Anti-Israel
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Anti-occupation
The first two positions are illegitimate in my mind and only by clearly condemning those that follow them can we gain credence for the real issue of stopping the occupation.
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They interrupted a performance purely on the grounds the group in question is Jewish.
Er, no. They interrupted a performance because the group in question was Israeli. There is nothing in the article outside of the charges being levied against the protesters that suggests that the race and/or religion of the artists came into it.
Search the article for "jew" or "judaism". No hits. You're making a hell of an assumption, and you're doing exactly what you condemn in conflating anti-Semitism with anti-Israeli political agenda.
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True I've mistaken anti-Israel for anti-Jeudaism. My argument still stands though because I don't accept anti-Israel either.
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I don't accept anti-Israel either.
Why shouldn't we be allowed to criticize israel?
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Who said you couldn't criticise Israel. I criticised Israel when I said I was against the occupation.
You can criticise Israel without being anti-Israel. Hell I criticise my own country regularly enough and I'm not anti-UK.
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They have in fact equated Jeudaism and Israel which makes it a rascist act
lol
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They have in fact equated Jeudaism and Israel which makes it a rascist act, even unwittingly.
Which one of those is a race?
Israel or judeaism?
If they protested the occupation of Palestine in the normal manner they'd be allowed to do so.
Whew. Here I thought you were going to call for a ban on protesting. Instead you severely want to limit how they protest and why.
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Judaism.
Also, there are limits.
Ever try to burst into a Parliament session? OH WAIT YOU CAN'T WE HAVE NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH THIS IS COMMUNIST RUSSIAAAAAAAAAA
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LOL.
Judaism is a race.
Nice one.
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Whatever Judaism is, it's not spelled judeaism.
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we must hold up freedom of speech whatever the price! we do not bend over for those religious fanatics no matter how loud they shout! except it's against israel. then, we must call it anti-semitism and bend over.
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It was claimed the four caused alarm and distress to the musicians and audience by shouting at the players while they were performing at the capital's Queen's Hall on August 29 last year. The performers had been brought to the capital to perform thanks to the festival's 2008 theme of "Artists without Borders", which also featured performers from Israel and Iran.
That's right, words caused "alarm and distress" -- to the point of warranting criminal prosecution.
Keep thinking it's the Muslims who want to end free speech... LOL
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You're so entirely stupid this is embarrassing for me respond to.
I'm assuming you aren't familiar with the works of Emmanuel Kant, or more specifically the three critiques ? Didn't think so.
Anyhow, the Categorical imperative, read up.
What I'm trying to say, and I'll use simple words for you - we can't all do whatever we want right when we want to do it.
it's not about their words, or their freedom of saying what's on their minds. It's the fact other people were hurt by this - not because of what they were saying (as if they said anything new), but because they disrupted the music, which was the reason people were there in the first place.
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Not everyone is a Kantian, you know, nor should they be. The man was pretty horrible by modern standards.
Anyway, since we're promoting materials, On Liberty, read up.
What I'm trying to say, and I won't patronise you by dumbing down Mill's original content - "If all mankind minus one, were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
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I'm not a philosopher, I have a real job.
There is the thought that we look at it in context. Israel just killed from 300-900 civilians and has kept Gaza and the West Bank under thumb screws for years.
So causing a little distress to a few flutists, some of whom work for the Mossad, and almost all of whom served in the IDF really isn't such a big deal.
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I'm far away from being a Kantian even though that judging his personality and philosophy are two completely different things (or we couldn't read Rousseau, Hume or Althossar, to name a few). Actually, if we're taking sides here - I'm probably mostly Lacanian. And I'm very familiar with Mill's work. The point is, in case you forgot, is that when you disrupt a public concert, you are legally liable to the consequences of your actions to the full extent of the law. The is not an issue of the homogeneity of opinions, but rather of the very manipulative headline.
But heck, you seem to be one of the drones, so I'm just wasting my time here.
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I'm far away from being a Kantian even though that judging his personality and philosophy are two completely different things (or we couldn't read Rousseau, Hume or Althossar, to name a few). Actually, if we're taking sides here - I'm probably mostly Lacanian. And I'm very familiar with Mill's work.
Mmmhmm.
You're so entirely stupid this is embarrassing for me respond to.
Mmmhmm.
But heck, you seem to be one of the drones, so I'm just wasting my time here.
Few things are more annoying than someone who has taken a couple of philosophy courses, namedrops philosophers, and calls people stupid.
If you'd internalized that work well enough, you'd be able to put together a coherent, concise statement supporting your views, instead of simply saying "I'm right and oh, go read Kant". Besides that, the holes you're leaving in your argument are rather glaring -- as numb3rb0y points out, not everyone agrees with Kant. Saying "you're wrong, because Kant said something else" is something like someone quoting a Bible verse to show that something should be done. Also, you jumped from toshibu's critique of legality into an ethics argument. I sincerely doubt that the law lines up perfectly well with your (or anyone else's) sense of ethics.
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The point is, in case you forgot, is that when you disrupt a public concert, you are legally liable to the consequences of your actions to the full extent of the law.
You mean like being kicked out?
Oh I see you mean like being criminally prosecuted and going to jail!!!
Nice one lacanian.
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it's not about their words, or their freedom of saying what's on their minds. It's the fact other people were hurt by this - not because of what they were saying (as if they said anything new), but because they disrupted the music, which was the reason people were there in the first place.
Completely wrong, actually. They were charged with a breach of the peace. To be found guilty, you have to have been found to have committed behavior 'liable to cause genuine alarm and distress'. The simple act of disrupting a concert is clearly not liable to cause genuine alarm to a reasonable person, so it's the manner in which they disrupted the concert that's crucial - i.e. the shouting, and the words they said. So when toshibu said
That's right, words caused "alarm and distress"
he was on the right track. The allegation is, shouting whatever they were shouting in a concert was liable to cause alarm and distress.
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Kant was a religious zealot just like the israelis who believe god promised them some land.
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Oh, so deep.
Why oh why did I bother taking a Philosophy course when I have reddit right here.
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You were not paying attention in your course.
Did you read critique of pure reason?
That's kant's massive religious zealotry in action right there.
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they don't say what the leaflet said.. I mean, it is possible that it was somewhat racist. just saying...
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How dare you demand PROOF before disparaging Israel on reddit.
You, sir, are worse than Hitler.
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There's a difference between English and Scottish law btw. There's not really a UK legislature.
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To me, their ractions imply that someone is bad simply for being Israeli. That is crap. Then they damaged the entertainment value of the venue and entertainment ia almost everything that makes life worthwhile...most of the time.
I am no fan of our relationship with Israel, being their bitch, but this action was nonsensical.
We need to get behind leaders who are not afraid to question Israeli policy. This will counter the assured actions of AIPAC and the effects of the "anti-semite" label that immediately gets slapped on those who dare to question Israeli policy.
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But at Edinburgh Sheriff Court yesterday, they were told these charges would be dropped and new charges alleging they committed racially aggravated conduct raised against them.
Seems like a bad idea. The first charge sounds like it might be well-founded. The second charge is potentially not (though, of course, one would need to actually know the specifics to say either way on either charge).
If the sheriff is concerned about enforcing the law, he might simply be letting someone who did disrupt a concert off scot-free.
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KerrAvon, how stupid can you be?
People who disrupt a string quartet performance in order to display their own political agenda are just plain rude. And yes, they should have the book thrown at them. But because they're against Israel, you seem to think what they've done is right and oh-so cool.
This is so typical of reddit lately. A bunch of mindless drones.
Now - see the drones down-vote en mass.
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So you're saying that because they interrupted people that their point is void? Maybe they should face a disturbing the peace or harassment charge, but not "have the book thrown at them."
How ignorant can you be? Oh-so typical of idiots. It's either black or white with you, isn't it?
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Uhhh....he didn't say the point was void.
You just shouldn't have to fucking deal with that when you're out for a night out.
For fucks sake, not EVERY social situation is a political venue.
Would you allow me to come into a movie you went out to see and scream at you about the genocide in Darfur?
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For fucks sake, not EVERY social situation is a political venue.
Doesn't matter.
Every INCH of Britain is a free speech zone. If they Israelis don't like it, they can leave.
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Did you even read my comment?
You seriously think they should "have the book thrown at them" for disturbing the peace?
You, the same person who gets his jollys from watching videos of streakers, Remi Gaillard, and Scientology raids?
Right, but you get mad when people protest war crimes and the global agenda of giving Israel a license to kill.
Again, disturbing the peace or harassment at the most. The same thing that a person invading a KKK rally should get, right?
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I don't even know what Remi Gaillard is, and I've never been a huge fan of streakers, although they are a little funny.
How dare you compare a group of performers who happen to hail from Israel to a KKK rally.
Fuck you. You know NOTHING about the performer's political views.
This was the wrong venue to protest. It was an apolitical venue of musical entertainment.
If the Israeli ambassador to the U.S. appeared at the Washington Memorial in the U.S. and spoke, that would be different.
Would it make sense to protest the Iraq War at a Metallica Concert in Canada?
No, it wouldn't.
Ass.
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I'm not saying their point is void.
It seems you don't really understand the book is a metaphor. No actual books should be thrown here. No flying books. The books stay still.
Yes, I agree - disturbing the peace or harassment would do.
And non of this has anything to do with ignorance, you really should look things up in the dictiona... ah, never mind. Just google it up, monkey boy.
p.s. you should read magephil's response, that shows he has the magical abilities of reading, which obviously you don't.
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Quote for truth, swine.
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That made a lot of sense - thank you, you stupid worthless asshole of a person, for bringing this to my attention.
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Nice try trying to use humor and a casual register in an effort to dodge the debate.
Piss off, monkey boy.
p.s. read my response to megaphil, that shows I have the magical abilities of having an intellectual debate someone instead of rolling on the floor like a loon, Mobius.
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"People who disrupt a string quartet performance in order to display their own political agenda are just plain rude".
Christ-on-a-bike - don't you think the actions of Israel in the last few months have been just been a little bit more than "rude"?
"This is so typical of reddit lately. A bunch of mindless drones."
Why not fuck off somewhere else then?
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Idiot.
I mean, really. Typical strawman bullshit.
This is about being able to go out to a music show. Israeli's are allowed to have string quartets.
Go outside and protest.
How would you feel if I came into a movie theatre where you were trying to watch a movie (lets say it was a turkish foreign film) and starting screaming about Armenian genocide.
Or called you like a telemarketer, incessantly, to yell about Egypt's treatment of AIDS patients and homosexuals?
There's a time and a place, Jesus.
Just because you're pissed about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, doesn't mean societal order should crumble for your views to be voiced.
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"Typical strawman bullshit."
Don't you think it's kind of ironic that you then go on a provide two of your own?
"Idiot"
See above.
"How would you feel if I came into a movie theatre where you were trying to watch a movie (lets say it was a turkish foreign film) and starting screaming about Armenian genocide."
The UK was not responsible for the Armenian genocide.
"Or called you like a telemarketer, incessantly, to yell about Egypt's treatment of AIDS patients and homosexuals?"
I am not responsible for any of Egypt's actions.
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Don't you think it's kind of ironic that you then go on a provide two of your own?
Dude, all I'm going to say about this is that you need to look up the definition of irony, since you really seem to have fucked that one up.
"Idiot" Also, the "greater than" symbol is used in reddit to show quotation - use it wisely.
And no matter how many times you're going to yell it around, no one but 'play3393' is going to believe a string quartet is responsible for what's going on in Gaza. Maybe you two should become butt-buddies.
Woah, just think about it for a second - what a badass string quartet they would be if they did blow the shit outta Gaza on their own. I mean, that's badass to the core right there.
What were we talking about again? Oh, yeah, the badass string quartet of death. You really shouldn't be talking shit about them - they'll hunt you down like a rabid dog.
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the double standards is the real decline of societal order. israel can join our "civilized" tables while it behaves worse than any random rogue banana republic.
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Really? Worse than any rogue banana republic?
What about Egypt and it's bigoted policies?
Surrounding Arab nations treating the Palestinians like dogs far before "Israel" existed.
And, pray tell, who sits at this "civilized" table of yours?
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don't you think the actions of Israel in the last few months have been just been a little bit more than "rude"?
Yes, I do. but what does one has to do with the other? Let me tell you, because you seem a bit stupid - nothing.
This is just another display of human stupidity (the ruining a perfectly good concert), this has nothing to do with Israel's actions which are another form of the very same display. being f***ing retarded. Much like yourself.
In many ways, what3v3r, you have proved your self to be a very good Israeli - better than me, no doubt.
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israel can be free to have its citizens join the rest of civilization, play lots of concerts take part in the european song contest etc. once she behaved civilized and has been punished for her war crimes. how about that?
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"The rest of civilization" which are ever so civilized. like Britain, or Holland, China, Brazil, Sudan, Iran, or all those wonderful countries that never hurt anyone to establish themselves. Heck, they did it with kisses and flowers.
If I understand you correctly, until Israel "has been punished" (I'm not sure what it means) No Israeli intellectual property should be enjoyed by anyone else.
I suggest you stop using PHP then, for example.
Until Israel is properly punished - of course.
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People who disrupt a string quartet performance in order to display their own political agenda are just plain rude.
Rude, perhaps. Criminal, certainly not.
Israelis do not have some sort of special "anyone who offends me is a criminal" status in Britain, sorry.
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Go to the next event played by the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Please. Bring some signs, and yell your little heart out. Disrupt their playing and take away the time and money of anyone who has invested in that venue. You can tell the cops its not criminal then.
Don't forget to tell them you're toshibukake from the internet!
Now tell me this, do you love the feeling of being part of an internet mob? Makes you feel like a big man? HAHA I'm kidding! I know that you know you're worthless. LOL.
toshibukake! From the Internet!
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From your comment thread:
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A bunch of mindless drones.
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being f*ing retarded. Much like yourself.
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Just google it up, monkey boy.
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thank you, you stupid worthless asshole of a person
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toshibukake! From the Internet!
The subtle eloquence of your language communicates volumes. Too bad that volume is turned up like you're using a Megaphone, something we don't need here.
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You're really reading! I'm so flattered!
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Oh no, some random internet Zionist made fun of my meaningless reddit nickname and is going through my comment history with down votes like comment karma actually means anything. I'm so hurt!
...not. I actually consider this a compliment. Thank you. : )
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Why don't you take your Zionist griefer-bot flames down the road and quit sullying a good screen name with your dreck. And please take your friend truth-slander with you.
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Good. At least people who want to LISTEN to music will be happy.
Besides what is the use of such protests except to show that the persons doing it are uncivilized idiots.
Go throw shoes on Olmert, Obama and Abu Mazen but listen to classical music. Mozart is forever, pro-Arab protests are ephemeral
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The country of Israel institutionalises racism. Why can't people protest this?
They can, but not in the middle of a fucking concert.
Seems reasonable to me. If a bunch of child killing racists or their representatives are holding a meeting then what better place to remind them that the world's revulsion toward their racist thieving state is not limited to times when it suits them.
The point is wherever people representing Israel go in the world they need to be looking over their shoulder for the unexpected protest. If that make them feel uncomfortable then tough. Its still a whole lot better than the concentration camps they put the Arabs in. If they want it to change they know what they must do.
I salute these brave people and will gladly contribute toward their legal fees.
Concentration camps? Do you know what a concentration camp is?
Also, this group wasn't representative of Israel. They just happened to come from Jerusalem.
Also, "a bunch of child killing racists or their representatives" is a stupid, reactionary way to refer to Israel and language like that only seeks to prolong the conflict.
Nothing is black and white. Stop pretending it is.
Hamas doesn't recognize Israel, instituationalizes racism against the Jewish people (not just Israelis)and has killed women and children.
However, I would never refer to them as "a bunch of child killing racists or their representatives".
They slaughter kids because they want something which isn't theirs. They are selfish pigs who are sub-human. ANYONE who slaughters kids, in my book, is not worth of membership of the human race.
I hope so much that they can experience just a little of what they have inflicted on the Arabs.
And only in specially marked zones.
or in shower rooms.
They can, in a country that guarantees their right to do so in the document upon which it is based.