Source
r/poker•
FedSoc

2/5 Live Deep: River Spot 3 Way Bet or C/C?

Hand Analysis

This is a hand I played against my friend from his perspective. We discussed it afterwards and wanted to get other people's opinions. I (u/fedsoc) am V1 in this hand and I'm in my mid-20's and am seen as a competent player and have a stack of ~$1500 on the BTN. Fun player V2 is middle-aged asian guy in the CO with a stack of ~$700. Fun player will limp-call tons of hands pre but usually plays pretty fit or fold post. My friend (hero) is a younger reg who definitely puts in time in the lab and plays a decent amount online, and is seen by most as a good winning reg; he's is in the SB and covers.

OTTH:

Pre flop: Hero is SB with AcJs. UTG $10 Straddle is on. Folds around to fun player V2 in the CO who limps. V1 on the BTN makes it $40. Hero flats the $40 wanting fun player to come along. Folds around to Fun player V2 who calls $40.

Flop: ($137) Jd 2d 4c (3 players) Hero checks, Fun player checks, V1 cbets $90. Hero calls. Fun player calls.

Turn: ($377) 7d bringing the flush in (3 players) Hero checks, Fun player checks, V1 checks back.

River: ($377) 8s (3 players) Hero?

V1 competent reg on the BTN should have a pretty wide range pre trying to iso the fun player. Fun player limp-calls a lot pre but I think 35s is a little too wide even for him. Fun player calling the $80 cbet on the flop makes him seem decently strong and the flop is pretty dry other than the diamond draw. Sucks that hero doesn't have a diamond in his hand. Is this a bet/probably fold to raise spot for hero 3 ways or is it better served as x/c?

Also wondering what you would do assuming fun player folds on the flop but the rest of the action stays the same (turn x, x).

Will post results later in comments.

Posted Mar 28, 2018, 12:25 PM UTC · edited

242
yanader2NL Hero•

love when people tell us how other people view them :D

9
FLOATS_EVERY_FLOP•

Hero has a TAG image.

15
yanader2NL Hero•

Hero is skilled TAG

14
Stringdaddy27Felt Wizard•

The day I see "Hero is mouth breathing, chip spewing, gutter chasing, knuckle dragging, LAGtard" is the day I will witness the most honest person on r/poker.

11
solidmussel•

I had this image yesterday. When I raised to $30 at 2/5, I got six callers.

1
joethepokerpro•

Hero always has a TAG image. There is no other way to play this game.

6
FedSocOP•

If you read the intro to the post, I'm not the hero in this hand. Hero in this hand (SB) is my friend. I'm on the BTN. I'm telling you how most people view my friend, including me, and obviously my view of him matters since I'm a villain in this hand. We play in a small poker room where only 2-3 2/5 tables run everyday so all the 2/5 regs know each other.

Never said hero in this hand has a TAG image, just that people know he's a winning reg.

2
yanader2NL Hero•

that is quite a weird way to show a HH so you can't be surprised that people don't get it

-1
beanpuddSTL & Charles Town•

Not only that, he also says

I (u/fedsoc) am V1 in this hand and I'm in my mid-20's and am seen as a competent player and have a stack of ~$1500 on the BTN.

thus explicitly telling us how people view him. OP is a mong.

4
FedSocOP•

Lol do you not understand that this hand is between two friends? There's clearly a distinction between the conventional HH you see where the OP is like "hero has been playing at the table for an hour and is viewed as TAG" vs. what I posted. I'm telling you how the Hero in this hand views me because he's my friend and I know that's how he views me. When I'm giving you specific details rather than the run of the mill "hero has played solid for two hours and is viewed as TAG," you should give me the benefit of the doubt. I shouldn't need to tell you that my friend and I both use trackers and know each other's stats. It should be enough that I tell you that two parties in this hand are friends. Stop being factitious.

4
FedSocOP•

I understand it's a little out of the ordinary which is why I wrote a paragraph to try and specifically lay it out. I decided the pros of including it outweighed the cons because the dynamic of reg-friend on reg-friend might make the hand more nuanced.

Now that that's clarified, do you have any analysis or was your comment the extent of your contribution?

1
yanader2NL Hero•

naw man, i can't. you're justifying with your reads when we're looking at it from someone else's point of view?

as it is, what does "hero" get called by if he bets? anything worse? just how fun is fun player? we beat "his" Jx with a diamond. maybe the lack of a diamond lets "you" x/c to bluff catch against v1.

i don't even know what "fun player" means. is he a station? have you seen him call light? or is he just smiling a lot.

given the chaos, x/c

3
JohnRusty•

I'd probably b/f an amount that hero thinks the rec will call ($175? Idk your friend would know better based on table). BU's range is really weak, I'd be shocked if he doesn't fold. I'd imagine the fun player will call us with plenty of worse Js, and maybe some other pairs depending on the sizing. I don't really think his range is as strong as you think, as all he's done is call a c-bet.

This is not a terrible run out for AJo, thin value betting a rec in spots like this is why it's profitable to play a hand like this OOP in the first place. If your friend won't go for the b/f in spots like this he should've folded pre.

If fun player folds flop, I'd also b/f the river with a similar sizing. I can see the merit for a x/c against just the reg, if you expect a lot of bluffs

2
DerHerringenieur•

Agree, but I'd probably bet like 120 trying to target the fishes weak Jacks.

3
JohnRusty•

Yeah, I think I like this even smaller sizing to minimize the EV loss when we get raised by a flush from the rec (probably the nut flush). I don't think we're getting bluff raised very often here, even with this very exploitable sizing (rec probably won't, and reg won't bluff raise into two people if rec calls).

If we have the Ad I think we can bet a little bigger because we're gonna get raised much less

2
l00t9•

What bluffs can the BTN have once he checks back a diamond turn explicitly telling us that he doesn’t have a flush?

1
JohnRusty•

With the rec in the hand, not very many, which is why I advocate for a b/f

1
Stringdaddy27Felt Wizard•

So on these types of spots (OOP, draw came in on turn, checked through w/ bottom of value range, if value at all), I much prefer to check/call rather than strictly value bet. The reason is, if we bet and get raised, we are folding 100% of the time right? By betting, we stop either of them from bluffing or we open ourselves to getting bluffed. We may miss value from QJ, JT, J9 type hands, but I think the long term +EV play is a check/call, check/fold to soul reads/large bets.

2
JohnRusty•

The reason is, if we bet and get raised, we are folding 100% of the time right? By betting, we stop either of them from bluffing or we open ourselves to getting bluffed.

Is this just an argument against ever taking a b/f line? This seems like the perfect spot to take one. To quote The Grinder's Manual:

Bet/folding a marginal hand usually entails making a thin value bet. It's a sensible choice in spots where we think that: -Villain's calling range vs our bet is weaker than his betting range should we check. -We have the best hand at least somewhat often when called. Bet/folding is a magical recipe to EV against the more passive variety of Fish. This player will call bets with a very weak range, but only raise bets with a very strong one. Passive Regs and even Aggro Fish can often fall into this category on the river.

This sounds like the perfect scenario to pull out the b/f.

I don't think a rec player is gonna bluff raise very often. Reg's range is capped, as he would probably bet made flushes against the rec instead of wasting a street of value. Both players will have some worse hands to call with, especially the rec

Against more bluff-heavy pools, I could see the argument for it. But even then I think I'd prefer to b/f

2
Stringdaddy27Felt Wizard•

You may be right. I didn't not approach it from that perspective. If our target range for thin value is one pair with blocker type hands, and those hands are always checking back the turn, then it may be a spot where we can bet towards a smaller percentage of the pot (maybe 40%) and just fold to any raise.

I don't think a rec player is gonna bluff raise very often.

They most certainly won't be. I rarely see it from them so I agree with that point.

Reg's range is capped, as he would probably bet made flushes against the rec instead of wasting a street of value.

It is capped but I think his range is capped at sets and worse, not necessarily a range we're beating.

Both players will have some worse hands to call with, especially the rec

Agreed, but we need to deduce frequency and we definitely don't have enough information to get a perfect solution to the problem. What would you use here for assumed ranges of both players?

1
JohnRusty•

Cards I anticipate rec to call with if we bet small: Js (45 total) J9 (12), JT (12), QJ (12), KJ( 12), AJ (9). Sets (12 total) 22 (3) 55 (3), 77 (3) 88(3). 99 (6) TT (6), maybe some 5x hands. Flushes (maybe 25ish combos) A2-A9dd (8) and maybe 15 or so more.

Rec may have worse Js to call with, or may call with something we don't expect at all for the hell of it. May also be donk betting flushes.

1
Stringdaddy27Felt Wizard•

What about the reg?

I have rec having some two pair combos as well 56s. Would you agree those are in his range?

For the reg (pre flop raiser), I'd assume a tighter range. Probably doesn't have anything worse than KJ/AJ for one pair hands, has some sets, overpairs and flushes. I think the reg has us beat at a higher frequency than the rec given the ranges.

The question I think we should be asking ourselves is do we get more value from value betting the rec, or is there more value in letting the reg bluff river? Thinking by that logic, I'd rather value bet the rec as you suggested.

1
l00t9•

After turn checks through, how can AJ be behind unless to QQ+?

2
Stringdaddy27Felt Wizard•

People will check back here with QQ+, sets and two pairs a lot, especially recs.

1
l00t9•

So then just c/f the river when they bet no? Why check/call?

1
tapewar•

I think id x/c fun player and x/f to a large size BTN bet. Usually multiway with fish regs play pretty straight forward against each other

1
Panacea4316Check-raising stupid tourists•

I think this is a check call to anything except a large BTN raise. Fun player can be betting worse hands than us.

1
small_root•

What is Hero thinking he can accomplish with a bet? check call

1
JohnRusty•

A call from a worse jack, or some other trash the rec is playing

5
small_root•

I realize how stupid I am now.

Agree with bet fold.

3
[deleted]•

Pre is should be 3 bet or fold from the SB. Why would you call hoping the fun player comes along? You said he’s fit or fold post flop so not like he’s going to spew off a ton of money with. I really hate calling pre flop. Your friend needs to get back in the lab haha. River is a check decide. Btn can have QQ-AA and V2 can have a lot of flushes.

1
FedSocOP•

I think I agree and would have definitely 3bet myself from the SB. Although maybe I overstated fun player's level of fit-or-fold a tiny bit. We didn't have that many hands with him but it seemed like if he missed the flop he would just snap fold to cbets, but if he had any pair he might call some streets.

2
FedSocOP•

Results:

My friend/hero (SB) leads for $150 (~40% pot). Fun player calls. V1 aka me (BTN) calls. Hero shows AJ, fun player mucks, V1 shows KK with the Kd.

1
NotAryanDominance•

If you suspect V1 and V2 are slow playing the flush, either because their Xd's are small or because they want to bet the river hard and fold other people out, then you'll just have to take your own advice and x/f when a large bet comes out. If you think these players would definitely bet on a flush (which they did not), then it becomes a question of a straight, trips, or two pair.

Playing a 56o with this flop is certainly plausible, and the betting could reflect chasing a set IMO, but again, you have to make a ruling off of how the V's play as to whether you consider this probable.

Trips is a tough one to gauge, though it seems to me there's entirely too much checking for trips, as a pocket pair would warrant at least a small bet. I could see V1 having trips out of all the players, but if he had it on the flop, a cbet of $90 seems low when there's flush potential. If V1 had pocket 7's, 8's, a cbet of $90 would make sense to me. I'm going to eliminate the possibility of pocket 7's though because of the check when the 7d turned. Assuming the possibility of trip 8's is just going to come down to what you think the player is capable of betting.

That leaves the possibility of two pair, but if it was me, unless I had a J, I would be playing either heavy post flop, or tight until the end, making a x/c if the bets aren't huge. But that's just IMO.

If I was hero, I would bet a medium sized bet of say, $150. That gives the low handed nitty players an excuse to get out (looking at V2). If there's a raise, unless it was much higher than our medium bet, I'd call as well. Chances are you're looking at a medium pair, or another JJ with a lower kicker. V1 or V2 pull a big raise, I'd fold. TPTK is good, but not worth losing a huge amount of chip over.

Also wondering what you would do assuming fun player folds on the flop

Judging by your description, unless he makes a big raise, he's an irrelevant player.

0
Golfergopher•

Check call. When V bets 90 and gets two callers, one of them can certainly have diamonds, especially the fun player. They will absolutely slowplay a flush.

V1 can also have an over pair or a set, but I think we only get value from KJ, QJ, JT. The fun player might call us wider who the fuck knows what his calling range is like.

I think we value own ourselves sometimes versus overpairs that might check back, have to fold to a raise, and we only get called by a few worse hands.

-1
l00t9•

Why not check/fold if you’re so sure we can’t beat much?

2
Golfergopher•

Well, they can bluff sometimes too, and we are pretty high in our range.

1
l00t9•

I think it’s extremely unlikely to get bluffed in a 3way pot since they should expect to get called by Jx plus they’re repping thin once they check back turn.

2
Golfergopher•

I think it’s extremely unlikely to get bluffed in a 3way pot since they should expect to get called by Jx plus they’re repping thin once they check back turn.

Yeah so you should probably call with AJ. There's a fun player in the pot, I have no idea what he's thinking. You assume too much.

1