Source
r/lakers•
dfdlt

Who else here is weary of repeating the same mistake that the Knicks made in 2011 when they cleared house to acquire Melo?

Two key differences here:

1.) Kawhi is a far better players in my opinion than Melo was but....

2.) Our core is vastly younger than the core that was traded by the Knicks in '11.

I hope that our playoff drought doesn't cloud the judgement of Rob and Magic. Sure if we trade for Kawhi, the first order consequences are making the playoffs and perhaps contending, but the 2nd and 3rd order consequences may be catastrophic long term if we trade away our young guys with huge upside (BI, Lonzo, Kuzma and to a lesser extent Hart) that can make us formidable for the next ~5 years.

Plus, Kawhi's injury is no joke. How do you guys feel?

Posted Apr 19, 2018, 7:31 PM UTC

3757
luckysharms9332•

I'm weary of pulling another Dwight and Nash

70
Laker_Junkie•

Too soon bro, too soon

12
thevisitor•

We just have a lot of PTSD with the past few blunders out FO made with Dwight/Nash and Deng/Mozgov. It's different leadership now but the anxiety and hesitation on our parts is palpable af lol

10
PleaseBeQuietCunt•

NOW THIS IS GOING TO BE FUN!

5
Homo-writer73•

Ugh. I instantly think of that fiasco every time someone mentions trades involving superstars. I do not want to to go through that again

2
BriocheFT•

I’m def tripping about kawhis injury, and I’m also dumb high on Brandon’s potential. If he doesn’t sign the max with the spurs, there’s no doubt in my mind that Magic is going to try trading BI and other pieces for him because that’ll make signing PG way easier,which worries me. Kawhi missed the basically whole season + playoffs and according to his teammates he keeps having setbacks. Worst case scenario is he’s like Tmac or Broy and we trade a really good young player for a chronically injured superstar

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dfdltOP00•

Yea that's my worry as well my dude :/

I think you are spot on with the worst case scenario and it would really suck to see BI, KUZ, and/or Lonzo flourish into elite players and have nothing to show for it in the end.

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Boltslakersdodgers•

Brandon will not be better than Kawhi is. It's not going to happen. He'll be good but Kawhi is arguably top 3

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BriocheFT•

Where did I say that tho? Kawhis just been chronically injured which is never a good thing is all I’m saying

3
dubswho•

I think chronic is an overstatement. I am forgetting some injuries or is this his only real one where hes missed significant time. I agree though, very nervous and I would only want Kawhi if hes 100% I would rather have PG and AD than PG and half kawhi with no youngins

1
Rockcroc2000•

You can't say he won't be better tho, you don't know that.

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Boltslakersdodgers•

I'm almost positive he won't be defensive player of the year, finals MVP, mvp candidate and top 5 player in the league. He'll be gold but not that good I promise

1
Rockcroc2000•

Don't make promises you can't keep, imma keep believing that he's gonna be the best player on a championship team.

2
MindfulCrusader•

Yes, I'm also concerned that Kawhi might not be the same player. Chronic tendinopathy for a player his age means it could be the start of something very problematic. We need the best medical staff in the world to get the best out of our players.

1
v2i0n•

You're looking way too far back.

The value of a FA even of Kawhi's caliber has changed significantly because now players have the power to tank their own value. Look at PG, Boogie, Blake, and Kyrie trades.

All three guys are probably All-NBA caliber team players and none of them fetched the kind of haul that Melo did. Productive players on rookie contracts and 1st rounders are much more valuable then they used to be.

And if nothing else, our owner isn't James fucking Dolan

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harrison5394•

Even if we get one championship out of it, it's NOT worth it. We'll be back to rebuilding in 5 years from scratch again. Let's not be the 08 one and done Celtics please. We're the Lakers and we're in the fucking dynasty business.

This Kawhi shit is desperate. I'm sick of us having to consider moving on every single all-star that might become available. Build ON TOP of what we got. That's what Golden State did and nobody is touching those cats for 3 more years. Not even a team of Lebron, PG, and Kawhi. Sorry ain't happening.

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dfdltOP00•

That’s a good point. What’s the point of building for now if the competition is objectively better and has 3-5 years playing together and know their identity/have a chemistry developed.

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harrison5394•

The crazy thing is we're in a perfect position to emulate Golden State when the rest of the league has no chance to re-create what they did. They had three home-grown all-stars they brought up on rookie deals with Curry, Thompson, and Green. Then they added an established star in Igoudala and then with the cap jump they added Durant.

Out of our core of Ball, Ingram, Randle, Kuzma, & Hart, I'm confident at least three of them will be future all-stars. Plus room for two max free agents on top of them? That's how you get a team with "fuck-you" depth like the Warriors. There's no cap-spike coming like the last one where a contending team will be giving the opportunity to add a superstar for free to their squad. We got the most depth and the most cap room. The end goal with this rebuild should be extreme depth. That's how you hang banners in this league.

Any GM can throw two or three stars together, but without depth it's useless. OKC this year is perfect proof of that. They're a top-heavy team with no real shot deep in the playoffs. Our 3-peat teams with Shaq and Kobe looked top heavy but they were deadly deep as well. Horry, Fox, Harper, Rice, Shaw, Fisher, etc. Same with 09 and 10. Injuries depleted our depth in 08 and we got waxed in the Finals. We mobbed up the bench the next year and we were untouchable. I hope Magic and Pelinka appreciate the unique position we've miraculously landed in and don't flush it for the sake of flashy moves.

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dfdltOP00•

I totally agree

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iceman0c•

Literally the only way golden state was able to do what they did was because curry got hurt a lot so his first contract after his rookie deal was for waaaayy less that he should have made. This let them have the cap space to build a team around him in a way that really no other team can duplicate. It was a perfect storm, not a blueprint.

OKC was a perfect example of what I'm talking about. By the time KD, Westbrook, and Harden were developed enough to be stars, they commanded too much money so they had to let Harden go. Then KD and Westbrook couldn't get it done and here we are.

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Xc0liber69•

Growth of the kids are nothing more but bait to get superstars. Feels sad thinking of it that way

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Boltslakersdodgers•

Kawhi is 26. We can have 5 + solid years if him. If we get George and/Lebron as well we can have 5 years of the rest of our young guys and our stars. That's dynasty potential. The guys we have right now aren't dynasty potential. Kawhi is better than Ingram will ever be. It's not desperate it gives us the best chance to win

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harrison5394•

That depends on what young guys are left, but I get what you're saying.

I'll put it like this. I'd rather take 15 years of Ingram and whatever he turns out to be over 5 years of Kawhi if I had to choose between the two. It's an easy choice to make when we have cap space for two max players and there is top talent out there besides Kawhi. Maybe even Kawhi himself next summer for free.

I'd take our full core + two max guys over kawhi + two max guys + a third of our core. Typing this out I just had a moment of realization how outlandish this whole topic is and we get to genuinely have it as Lakers fans again haha. Either way we're pretty fuckin set this summer!

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Boltslakersdodgers•

I think two max guys and Kawhi can win more championships in 5 years than our core can in 10. But I agree with you I think we are in a win win either way

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odinlubumeta•

If we get a championship it is definitely worth it. That’s the point. Why would you rather just be a playoff team for a decade over winning even a single title. That’s just dumb. But we wouldn’t just be done in 5 years. Kawhi will be at the start of his decline then. PG could be traded before then. And Lebron who knows. But look at Houston. You can get FA if you are good. That’s the new trend I the nba. So let’s assume Lebron is retired and PG is either traded or let go in four years. Zo is entering his prime and Kawhi is just starting to decline. The Lakers would be the place for a young player to go. And that is pretending the Lakers can’t draft. Look at the Spurs. Good drafters find good players.

Next you are guessing that BI is going to be a top player. Maybe he tops off at PGs level. That good but not enough where you wouldn’t regret not getting a big 3 when you had the chance. In the last 20 years we have seen plenty of rising up and coming teams top off well before they win a championship. Remember you likely need a top 5 player to win a title. Can you really say any of our guys are definitely top 5?

Lastly GS is definitely not winning the 3 next titles. They had to become a flip the switch team this year. That means they are mentally fatigued. Something that happens to all teams that constantly go to the finals. Kerr mentioned that the MJ Bulls felt it hard in the first 3 peat. He didn’t think they would have won the 4th year. There is no way GS doesn’t break down. Hopefully Houston doesn’t get them this year so next year we can be the team to do it.

By the way, a team with Kawhi, PG and Lebron would likely be a top 3 team. To say a top 3 team couldn’t win is silly.

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Xc0liber69•

What you said makes sense but that's assuming we even win any chips at all. Getting 3 superstars doesn't instantly guarantee you will win... Best example is lebron didn't win not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7.... Yes he did win 2 but my point is it is not 100% confirmed they will win.

We got dwight kobe and Nash and everyone thought oh hell yea lakers in finals again. Shit went down hill pretty quickly. Surely you remember.

Okc got melo and PG and everyone thought they will make a deep playoff run. Well we all saw all the issues they have and barely made the playoffs.

So with that said. Keeping the core and breaking the core up to get 3 stars have their ups and downs. Honestly I'm leaning towards the warriors due to them being the prime example of keeping their young core together. Don't forget that klay draymond and curry were all drafted by the warriors. They were horrible throughout the years but they kept the young core together and look at them now. Hell they got durant for free!

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odinlubumeta•

Well first Lebron won two. So I would take two championships and 2 wins appearances in a second. Oh and no team has ever had a 100% chance to win. That’s just silly. If that’s your criteria you are going to be disappointed a lot. Of the Shaq Kobe championships, the Lakers could have lost to Portland the first year (and probably should have), the second they weren’t good until the playoffs, and the last they were a Horry shot away from losing. So should we have traded Shaq for younger players to just make the playoffs for the next decade? Do you see how ridiculous that statement was?

If you remember the Lakers had the 3rd best record in the league. And that was after a freak accident. If your argument is a hurt Dwight, a coach that couldn’t play two bigs, and a freak accident can’t win. Sure. But that team was designed to need another year to fill out the bench (and if they were staying with D’Antoni should have moved Gasol for a stretch player). It was poorly constructed for Mike. You do get that right?

Read my post after the Melo trade. Melo was cooked last year. He also demanded too many shots early so it took longer for them to figure themselves out. Plus you haven’t seen the Westbrook chart. Every major player who has gotten away from him has had improved stats. I tried explaining how much he hurts a team but people see triple double and ignore all the arguments.

As for the Warriors, go look at all the other teams that stayed together since the 90s. Most of them never contend. Duplicating that team is just silly. Sacramento has been doing that for years. So did the TWolves. They have a combined 1 playoff series in 22 tries. So we can both show examples. But the draft method has a low percentage of success.

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harrison5394•

There's never a guarantee you get anything back for declining players. We thought we could reload around Kobe for a third time, but nobody wanted to come play around a declining superstar. We lost Dwight and Pau and got NOTHING in return. Instant tank mode. Same exact thing after we unloaded Shaq. Instant garbage for 3 more seasons.

I'd rather take a shot at the playoffs over the course of the next 10-15 years with our young core than to try and squeeze one or two off with whatever concoction of the league's current rejects. I'd take PG and Kawhi as free agents all day long, but I wouldn't trade a single asset for them. What's the point of cap space if we have to keep dumping prospects along the way?

And I agree, the Warriors will fall off for a single season coming up soon, but they'll reload fast. They're all under or early 30s. That team is primed for several more years and no mix and match of free agents is going to be able to match their offensive and defensive capabilities. That team just fucked around in the regular season and are going to demolish the first two rounds of the playoffs without their best player.

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thetitsOO•

TIL Kawhi and PG at 26 and 27 are declining players.

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harrison5394•

I'm referring to them at the end of their deals. Will we be able get a good return for them when they're in their mid-30s? You better be sure if you're dumping a half-decade's worth of lottery picks to get them. We just went through a full rebuild and I would prefer that all of our moves benefit the long term foundation of our franchise over anything else.

Both players may be available to sign as free agents and considering we have the cap space to sign both if the right time comes, it'd be shortsided to move assets to obtain them. This summer is where we find out if this new front office are big picture guys or small picture guys. What we do this offseason will affect the next decade of Lakers basketball.

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odinlubumeta•

You rarely have to tank. Spurs haven’t had to tank since Duncan. Houston never ranked. Lakers didn’t tank for 2 decades. Pacers haven’t tanked. Sacramento has tanked like 10 straight years. Good management doesn’t need to tank. Bad management does. And I didn’t say move PG for something good. I said get something or wait and get cap space. Lakers could have moved Pau multiple times. Mitch was just too stubborn and only wanted a star player back for him. Each year his value went down and they kept. Mitch was worse than people realize because we were blinded by the championship he earned.

As for Kobe get your facts straight. The Lakers had no cap space until Kobe tore his Achilles. So yes no one wanted to play with an injured may never play again Kobe. As for Shaq, the Lakers weren’t garbage. Kobe got hurt. That team had Odom and Caron Butler. They just didn’t have a coach who knew how to utilize them (thus the Lakers forced his retirement). That team was better than the current Lakers. The next year despite getting worse after trading Butler for Kwame they went to the playoffs.

It is so weird to hear our fan base suddenly not care about championships. What Jim and Mitch did really crushed you guys. For reference Laker fans used to laugh at the Bucks whose owner only wanted to make the playoffs every year. By the way this Lakers squad might not even be a playoff team in the next 3 years. They would need a lot of development and need to jump several teams. The west has 10 good teams.

Do you really not understand cap space. In 2 years the cap space is gone. What we have at that point is our team. If it isn’t a future contender you are stuck. The point of cap space is that you can use it to take lopsided money wise trades (like Ingram for Kawhi despite a 20 million difference) or get FA. It’s about flexibility to build the team you envision.

Yeah remember the 04 Pistons. Once they flipped the switch they never win again. Shaq Kobe Lakers. Once they flipped the switch they won one more year. The 14 Heat flipped the switch and never one again. The Warriors are not some unique team in history. And they cannot just move Draymond and Curry for two other good young players. They have unique skill sets they make they so different from every other team. They don’t just overwhelm teams with talent. They can rebuild but they won’t be unbeatable again. They had a very unique situation with the cap spike. You take KD off them and these last two years they are very beatable.

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harrison5394•

Championship(S) are the only thing I care about. I even have patience for them. I'd like to see Kawhi play a game of basketball again before I consider dumping any lottery players for a season of a guy I can try and sign next summer. Any GM could move our picks for star players. Magic and Pelinka are supposed to be fucking closers so lets hope they get the job done by free agency cause the last guys sure as shit couldn't.

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wildcard1717•

Ok so credit I’m a younger guy but I live for Laker basketball and this is honestly crazy. Golden state has put together one of the most dominant teams in the history of sports. I LOVE our talent but we will be lucky if one of them ever reaches the heights of Curry, Durant, or Dray. Those are all hall of famers that have helped to change the way the entire game is played and not to mention Klay who is the ultimate supporting piece.

Next, what the heck do you mean we don’t win championships, we build dynasties? So should every team refuse the chance at a championship because they are building dynasties. We have had success due to a combination of luck and people’s desire to live in LA and that’s the truth. Lucked into Magic by landing the first pick in the year an all time great just so happened to come out. Kobe forced his way here because he wanted LA. The dynasties came from free agents and trades though. Kareem coming to help Magic and Shaq coming just before Kobe arrived. We have been completely successful because of teams made of combinations of drafted players and FA/ Trades. Sure our last two with just Kobe weren’t necessarily but having an all time great player leading the charge helps. Unless you expect of our current guys to become Kobe level dominant then we are going to require help from the outside.

That being said, KL absolutely everything we should want. He is a SoCal guy who that’s only 26 and already has Hall of Fame written all over him. We would be beyond lucky if one of our guys became half of what KL is. I believe he is taking precautions to make sure he is healthy and that’s why he hasn’t played. You don’t do what he’s done without an incredible work ethic and desire to win so he isn’t just being lazy or a baby. That being said I don’t think it’s likely we get him. I wouldn’t do the knicks thing and give away everything. But if they ask for BI+Kuz+ a 1st or two. There is just no way we can deny that. We’d basically be guaranteed PG13 and may even be able to keep Ju along with Zo and J Hart. That’s a dominant team for the next 10 years in almost any scenario. That’s a dream and an absolutely perfect scenario but that’s what we are here to speculate about and hope for.

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harrison5394•

The Lakers have won dynasties by long-term thinking, not short-term thinking. That'd be great if they could pull it off, but there's also the gamble of getting him for free.

I'm REALLY glad we didn't trade Randle for PG last summer. Our picks are starting to break out big and I want to know what some of these players turn into before I make a short-sided move for something I have a shot at getting for free in the summer.

2
wildcard1717•

I fee the sediment and I totally get where your coming from. We both just prefer to gamble on different things and that’s fine. We’re fans and that’s why we are here. I personally don’t see KL as a short term move because of his age and the fact they’d probably only do it if he signed first. I completely get the wait and see next summer but a lot can happen between now and then and we may have lost out on an opportunity to get a young all time great who may not have even found his final form yet. Maybe one of our guys becomes an all time great too and it doesn’t matter! I just wanna see this team contend and win another championship to catch those damn Celtics so they will officially have absolutely nothing on us! All good fam! At the end of the day i trust Magic. He wants this team to be great again and I throughly believe he is a basketball genius so here’s hoping!

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harrison5394•

Yeah I feel you, it's pretty great to get to be having these kinds of debates again. This summer is gonna be huge one way or another, bright days are here again

1
kukay29•

This is the odd part. It is a gamble to get Kawhi. While he is a proven talent that can help a team, he was injured basically the whole year so there's not a lot to see.

But it could work out. He is still a great defender and a proven player. We just dont know how he's going to play and get back up.

IT was great for us. Fought through the hip pain and still producing in the court. So we shall see. It is still kind of a gamble but what matters for the team is grab a superstar to get more superstar(s).

6
swift_eklipz•

it doesnt make sense for them to trade him unless all his medical papers are released to the team trading for him and he clears a physical before the trade. his value is rock bottom right now

1
LudwigNasche•

I'm weary of spending the money to sign or resign players that aren't a shadow of Kawhi.

We have like a big 3 in terms of young assets and I want to keep at least 2 of them. Sacrificing 1 for a player like Kawhi if he is health is a no brainer.

3
Wateriswet1212•

Very different. If we sign PG and LeBron we cannot just sign Kawhi into space. We have to trade for him if we want him.

1
dfdltOP00•

Right, my post is specifically centered around that exact premise of trading our core to acquire Kawhi to pair with LBJ and PG.

3
69dankdawg69•

Also if we trade for Leonard we can go past the salary cap using using his bird rights, if he resigns.

2
I_Heart_Basketball44•

In the 9 games Kawhi played, he obviously didn't look 100% but his per 36 production was similar to his healthy season. The defense was still there, shooting was rusty which was understandable.

The issue was the pain the day after games. Which is why he basically checked out of the season to handle the injury properly. It's not like he tore his achilles.

Melo is a bad argument as he was never in his career even close to peak Kawhi

1
Dushancg123•

Josh Harth will be one of best 2way guards in next 2 years, lets sign LBJ only so he can coach with Luke.

1
mr_toit•

We dont even know if we'll be getting a Kawhi or half a Kawhi if we trade for him this off season. U see how your stock can crash and burn in such short span (Hey there Isiah! I see you there as well Derrick!).

Imagine if we shipped out BI and Kuz...then be stuck with half a Kawhi for 4 years, back up the Brinks truck.

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ControlAgent13•

Id say No to trading Bi, Lonzo, Kuz. These 3 should be untouchable.

I also think the Lakers have proven that they are good at drafting so I would keep my draft picks.

Now a deal of Sign and trade Randle for Kawhi is one I could get behind.

0
Aleksso•

Thats way different, melo specifically stated his intention to play for new york, knicks didnt have to do squat and they would have gotten him in fa. Theres only shallow and unsupported rumors about kawhi wanting to play here, he hasnt said anything. The PG situation last year is more similar to melo-ny

0
dfdltOP00•

It’s not up to kawhi. We can only acquire him via a trade and I would think the spurs are eager to him and my specific worry is Magic and Pelinka pulling the trigger and trying to convince him to stay long term (even easier if lbj and/or pg here).

I’m not basing this worry on any of the speculation. I’m basing this worry on Maginka maybe shooting for the fences this offseason and potentially hurting our prospects long term like the Knicks did.

1
justbringitbitch•

That trade has nothing to do with us.

There's not even a hint of a rumor of us clearing house for Kawhi.

Plus, the players the Knicks traded have all turned out to be middling players at best.

The only thing the Nuggets came away with from that trade at this point is the pick swap that got them Murray. They actually traded away the pick that turned into Saric for the Sixers.

The Knicks were right to do what they did. They signed Amare that season, who was like 2nd in scoring that year for them. They went for broke. It didn't work out. At least they had an all star in Carmelo.

Give me that over a group of journeymen any day.

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