Colorless vs Colored Bows, Why I think Colored Bows is a great addition to the game.

Serious Discussion

Hello to all, I'm just a longtime FEH player here. I don't think I have much credentials to my name but I feel like I had to make this post. From what I gather from lurking on this sub, it seems there is a misdirection on the fact that being a Colored bow is a disadvantage and overall a negative experience compared to being a colorless instead, and I feel that's certainly not true. I'd actually argue being colored is actually an ADVANTAGE over Colorless outside of fringe cases and that is much healthier to have a good Colored Bow than it is to being Colorless. This will be a long post so if you want the TLDR, you can scroll to the bottom.

 

Now to start off on why I feel there's misdirection about Colorless bows vs Colored Bows, I have to first talk about once was considered the golden standard for Colorless, Brave Lyn. For those that were playing when she was released, I'm sure we all remembered how much of a monster Brave Lyn was. With a great statline, synergistic kit, and being calvary, she was a threat that you had to have a counter for in arena or you'd be at the mercy of losing your arena run right there. DC units themselves were helpless because of her B skill, Sacae's Blessing and with her being Colorless, means she was always hitting for neutral damage. With horse buffs, this means that she would always at worse, Chunk the opposing unit without retaliation, if not outright kill them. Worse yet, the Firesweep build she had meant that NO unit could offer retaliation, which along with her 5 attack range, meant she would always have the first hit. Now then, if you may notice, it almost seems like I'm arguing that being a colorless bow for BLyn is an advantage.... and I'd say you'd be right. BLyn's best color is Colorless, because it's synergistic with what she wants to do. She is an amazing Sweeper, and so long as she's able to kill the opposing unit, does it matter if she has WTA? Of course, NOW she seems to have fallen off due to the rise of the Dragon meta, and the fact that units are more tanky, which means she's missing out on vital kills. Intiating on ANY Dragon for her is pretty much suicide now. However, now I ask of you, what if you were to turn Brave Lyn into a Colored Bow? If she were Blue, would she suddenly have a winning matchup with Red Dragons that she lost if she were colorless? Sure she would do worse vs Green Dragons, but would that matter if she were to lose them anyways even if she was colorless? Brave Lyn has 53 effective health at neutral vs +Att Adult Tiki who has 54 attack with BoF and Distant Counter. This is a situation where she would lose as colorless but actually win if she were Blue.

 

Now, I'm not trying to argue that BLyn would be better as a Colored Bow here. As I said before, I feel being colorless works to her advantage, but ONLY because of the fact that her kit synergises with that fact. You see, the nature of being Coloress I feel leads you to two states. You're either very good as Colorless BECAUSE your kit is just so excellent that you don't need WTA to have a role of fighting one color and instead win vs most of them, OR you're very bad due to the fact that your kit is underwhelming to the state where you would want WTA to have a role to fight at least one color. Brave Lyn or Halloween Jakob are NOT just good because they are Colorless, Their kits just take advantage of that aspect really well. Legendary Lyn is NOT just lackluster because she is a Green Bow, it's just one part of the whole package.

 

Hoo boy, talking about Legendary Lyn, this is where I feel where the "Colored Bows are inherently bad" mentality seems to stem from. I won't argue against the fact that Legendary Lyn is bad (though I feel she does have her underutilized strengths but that's not important on this topic). However I will argue the point that Legendary Lyn being Green is not the reason she's bad. Now I'm no expert on the character, but it seems that even with WTA, she seems to struggle vs even tanky blue units. Forget about even taking on DC red units which are very common. Honestly speaking, if I were to be a Bow unit, Green is the last color I'd pick due to this reason as that is part of the meta. However, you turn L!Lyn into a colorless bow, her matchups do indeed change, but would they be for the overall better? Her red matchups would definitely improve, but she would lose out on matchups vs blue units that she'd have won previously. That's just WTA again at work. I will say personal opinion of mine, Legendary Lyn is better at being colorless since improving matchups vs DC reds is always a plus. Becoming Colorless however does not change her kit lacking cohesion. Laws of Sacae is still an EP skill on what is seen as a Player Phase unit. I can see why a negative mentality would come from as L!Lyn was the only color archer we had for a while, until L!Lucina came which will be my last character to mention.

 

L!Lucina is MUCH better as a Blue Archer than if she were colorless. Take this fact, L!Lucina vs Ayra. If L!Lucina was colorless, she would ALWAY lose this matchup vs Distant Counter Ayra. Wrath Regnal will always Ko and she would never kill her. However by becoming Blue, she instead will almost always win an engagement with Ayra, no matter her build. With her Bow and Swift Sparrow, she will not miss a double and along with the 20% damage boost, she will get the KO. Merges, Slaying Edge Refine HP boost, even a distant defense seal , so long as Lucina has the right build, she will win that matchup based on my calculations at +10 and an even playing field. I feel not to drag this out but I can indeed post the mock battles I had for information if so requested. This is already an important matchup to win for ANYONE due to Ayra's meta significance, and being blue is where Lucina can win this matchup due to surviving the Wrath Regnal Astra build. That's not the only matchup that improves to a level where she can win however. Zelgius is another although it can be very shaky. I do not believe she can survive a Black Luna, so if Zelgius is able to have a build with an Instant Black Luna, she can die. However it's important to note that with solid support, that changes a shaky matchup to a good one. If she were colorless however, this dynamic changes, and even with support she would struggle to get a kill, much less survive. Already , being a Colored Bow actually enhances her performance in arena. So long as she has a role to perform, she will always have a place in a team. Lucina's kit allows her to fight DC reds being blue allows her to successfully complete that objective to an effective degree. Red DC units can't even run Bowbreaker as that is actually a big advantage to why you would want to be a Colored Bow. How many of you are hoping for a Breathbreaker B skill right now due to the prevalence of the Dragon meta? Can you imagine If you couldn't even run a breaker on a possibly prevalent RANGED unit? Imagine if there were colored calvary bows that had ridiculous kits, you would have to rely on the respective color advantage to fight them until they do release the breaker corresponding to that color.

 

If you were to make a point that Lucina cannot fight Greens, I say to you why would you want her to fight Greens as a blue unit? I would rather have a slot for a unit that can specialize in one role very well rather than a generalist. You have 4 slots to work with. I also ask of you if you really want a Colorles-, nay, any unit that is able to fight all colors? Is that not the definition of unbalanced? We've seen the damage it can do when Brave Lyn was able to run rampant for a while before the updates to Dragons. Heck even in the infancy of the game, Takumi was seen as so much of a danger in arena that one of the reasons Robin was valued very high was due to that matchup. Colored Bows, while not only can be seen as as advantage to a character with the right kit for it, is also easier to balance and objectively a healthier addition to the game.

 

TLDR: Colored Bows as a concept is in it's baby stages right now, with only two units to the name. Please do not just assume that it's a flawed class to have due to that. Also L!Lucina is a great addition for what her kit offers to the game as a Colored Bow.

Also for those who may not know some of the terms definitions I used

Kit- A unit's statline, class, and unique skills working together.

WTA- Weapon Triangle Advantage

Posted Aug 3, 2018, 12:15 AM UTC · edited

3735
TouhouEmblemRobin (Fallen Heroes)•

I have to agree that colored bows is a good addition to the game and people overexagerate how bad they are.

Though considering both colored bows are legendary exclusive, it's really dumb. Can we get some colored bows in the summoning pool.

27
BlueDestinationOPIke (Vanguard Legend)•

I feel that IS wanted to make Colored bows the new "shiny" object you must have which is why they're legendary exclusive atm. Hopefully they'll play around with the concept more and release regular units under the colored bow class.

8
eXcaliBurst93Ephraim (Arrival of the Brave)•

S!Takumi would've be perfect to introduce blue bow tbh...I mean even his bow looks blue-ish water it would fit the theme...but I guess they just want to make it exclusive for legendary

1
britreyspearsHector (Marquess of Ostia)•

Imo Colored bows are as good as they are because of the WTA. Colorless bows are really solid for PvE, but terrible in PvP meta which ramps up defense to crazy high levels.

I never understood why people thought they were ass. They're really good.

24
SinakkuNephenee•

Its mostly because Legendary lyn had a terrible kit, bow, and stats. Legendary Lucina on the other hand has an actual good skill set.

27
Van24Lucina (Glorious Archer)•

This, pretty much. Especially since she can reach stupid amounts of offensive power if Atk/Spd Link comes out any time soon. Future Vision is ridiculous in that regard since it increases her reach and can potentially provide her some "free" buffs.

It's not out of the question to see her initiating on melee units with something like +14/+14/+10/+10 just from Thogn, Swift Sparrow, the theoretical Atk/Spd Link (on her), and Def/Res Link (on her ally).

If said ally is Brave Lucina that rocks the Drive Atk Seal (stacking colors, lol), that can reach +20/+20/+10/+10, which I'd say would give her some one-shot potential on most reds outside the supremely tanky ones like Zelgius.

if said ally is M!Kamui with a refined Yato, she'll hit a slightly more balanced +18/+18/+14/+14 bonus statline before adding on any Drive skills.

It's pretty insane to think about.

11
SinakkuNephenee•

Thank you for doing the math. That really is insane, plus the fact Lucina's C skill benefits allies.

1
ErgastLyn•

I have to disagree. 31/36 isn't exactly a bad offensive spread for a bow user (although it pales compared to Bridelia's 35/35 or Lucina's 34/35), and Swift Mulagir is bonkers, giving her +5 to atk/spd and +3 to res in any given fight unless you do something very wrong, changing her spread to 50/41 before you give her any A or seal. In comparison, Thogn gives Lucina +4 to all only if she fights melees, and against them she has now 52/39. She is going to miss some doubles that Lyn won't, specially against rangeds.

Law of Sacae is a good skill... On the wrong character. You can run Lyn as a mixed phase, but she is better using Fury for that, and she isn't a pure EP which is where Law would shine. And if you run Lyn as PP, you want either LaD or Brazen atk/spd. Personally, I use Brazen to not lose her enemy phase, making her a mixed phase with a more powerful PP but still able to actually fight in the EP.

Lyn already has Desperation, which is one of the best B you can give her if not outright the best one, and spd tactics is really good.

Lucina has Wings of Mercy that you can use for mobility shennanigans, or give her desperation, and Distant Guard is a good, if a bit gimmicky C.

And finally... Yeah, Future Sight is much better than Rally def/res or drag back/swap. No one can argue that.

Both have comparable spreads and a good kit with one skill you want to change, and they play a different game. Lucina is a scout/assassin that needs some support for when she inevitably goes too far into the enemy lines, while Lyn is an artillery unit that brings suport fire surrounded by allies.

3
ArcanaRobinCherche•

Lucina hits 51/42, not 51/39. Thogn increases her speed by +3

5
ErgastLyn•

Missed that one. She still is going to miss some critical doubles against some rangeds, though.

1
JavelinRLucina (Glorious Archer)•

while Lyn is an artillery unit that brings support fire when surrounded by allies

This is kinda the unfortunate catch with L!Lyn though imo. Her states, like you said, are fine but imo her unique skills put her in a weird position where she's bulky enough for defense but has a kit that takes a human mind to play. You need to group half your team around another quarter to get the most out of her skill, which is really limiting and asking a lot of the AI. What's probably the worst thing about Laws of Sacae though is that it's an A-skill. If it were on any other slot you could also run Close Counter to get the most out of LoS's buffs and have a pretty awesome combo on your hands.

2
ErgastLyn•

In fact I was going to say at first that Laws is a good skill in the wrong spot, but a stat buffing skill in any place but the A (or seal) would be broken. So I changed it to wrong character.

1
HeeHokunTeam Legendary Ike•

L!Lyn's kit is actually really good for the "green ranged tank niche", especially in a tactics team. I use mine as that (-def +res, perfect IVs since she doesn't need any more spd or atk) and she is a monster. Desperation actually works great with it too. The problem is that niche isn't highly requested to begin with.

2
BlueDestinationOPIke (Vanguard Legend)•

Indeed. With buffs and hitting for neutral damage, Colorless Bows are a bread and butter for hard PVE content. I do feel Colored Bows would prove far better in arena as a concept.

4
IsidoreTheSlothTeam Brave Hector•

I think the issue with colored archers is more about their comparisons with mages of the same color. You know that Zelgius match-up that's shaky for L!Lucina? A mildly buffed blue Blade mage can OHKO him, Ayra, and most of the other high-Def melee reds L!Lucina might struggle with. Similarly, L!Lyn struggles just as much or more against bulky melee blues as compared to green mages. The colored archers have an advantage over the mages against other high-Res mages, but those physically frail mages can usually be handled with neutral melee units. When most meta melee units have higher Def than Res or mixed bulk, mages are often the better pick if you want a ranged unit.

Colorless archers, on the other hand, have a niche along with daggers as physical attackers that will almost always have a neutral match-up. The mages don't intrude upon that role, even if colorless archers may be finding it increasingly harder to deal with bulky enemies without WTA.

That said, L!Lucina's unique Assist gives her extra points that a blue mage can't imitate. I think they would really need to give future colored archers a similar kind of uniqueness to make them worth it.

20
BlueDestinationOPIke (Vanguard Legend)•

You are indeed correct about Blue mages having overall better matchups against the examples I mentioned. I feel that hitting the res stat is overall better for an offensive ranged unit as the best units usually have higher Defense than Resistance. It actually makes me thankful that IS hasn't done a Colorless Mage concept yet and I shudder to think that it's always possible that that might change.

And yes, I feel Lucina unique movement prf has untapped potential even though general thoughts on it are calling it good already. With it she can remove debuffs from her like Ploys, and once they release Atk/Spd Link, she'll be a monster.

5
planetarialLewyn•

It actually makes me thankful that IS hasn't done a Colorless Mage concept yet

They already did, healers. Sure they can’t bladetome, but they can hit you without retaliation which is way more annoying.

9
HorusReezz4455Joshua•

Hm. This is an interesting take and something I’ve been wanting to talk with other’s in the community about. Colored bows can be extremely useful in the right situations. The issue is many people judge unit’s viability based on the most dangerous arena matchups and colored bows are no different. For example can they go toe to toe with slaying edge, wrath ayra? In many cases, I assume no. Does that invalidate Lucina or the next colored bow? I would disagree there.

Next, I think colored bows are getting a bad rap because of the characters they’ve been associated with. In other words, it is within the realm of possibility, that people might biased towards overly popular units. Therefore the weapon class is getting the short end of the stick.

Colored bows are overall, fine. They are viable in different ways than colorless bows and are both gifted and haunted with color advantages.

6
captainoffailSanaki (Bridal Bloom)•

This reddit is like "HEY WE GOTTA A SAMPLE SIZE ONE EXAMPLE OF COLOURED BOWS! NOW WE CAN COME TO THE GENERAL CONCLUSION THAT IT'S BAD!"

5
ErgastLyn•

Fun thing is, that sample isn't bad. It just had one skill that you don't want on her, that you can change to LaD, Fury or Brazen atk/spd anyway.

1
PickCollins0330Marisa•

What does it matter that she can duel with Ayra or Zelgius when you can just bring in someone like Ishtar and drop them in one fucking hit?

4
BlueDestinationOPIke (Vanguard Legend)•

It's not so much that Ishtar can drop them in one hit, but the point that Lucina can indeed perform a job and kill them as well. Of course Ishtar is better at killing them, but do keep in mind Lucina's Future Vision is a powerful skill that definitely has it's worth and is unique to her along with being able to cover those two. Did you know you can actually use it to emulate some movement skills like Reposition, Drawback, and Swap? It's certainly worth running her for a blue slot I believe.

4
PickCollins0330Marisa•

One assist skill and suddenly there's a reason to use her? Pass. I'd much rather use Reinhardt/Ishtar/Linde and just butcher any threats to them than brawl with them and then run away.

0†
TheDankestDreamsTakumi•

Honestly I would love a banner collecting the 4 best archers across the franchise not already in the game (or 3 and an alt) and make a new heroes banner where an archer of each color is added to the regular game. It’ll finally be Python’s time to shine as a blue bow and with available merges I think they can be really prominent.

3
xMarthington•

I've seen a lot of comparisons to mages for colored bows and I think what's often overlooked is the other weapon options they have. Mages don't have an equivalent to brave bow or firesweep bow so I think colored bows will always have a niche there.

Also L!Lyn isn't really that bad, she just isn't suited for the meta rn. Imo she excels as a mage counter but they're not really seen all too often so she doesn't see a lot of use. Properly positioned with distant defense seal she is definitely not easy to take down for ranged units.

2
BlueDestinationOPIke (Vanguard Legend)•

I do feel L!Lyn has potential to be really good if the arena were to ever be shifted to a mage heavy meta which goes back to my underutilized strengths comment. Whether a unit is good or bad is determined by comparisons to other characters.

Take Brawl for instance, Donkey Kong and Fox are regarded as good characters, but they had 0:100 matchups to high tier characters which caused them to be lower by nature of it. Sure you have have Good damage, Good Speed, and Good Killing power with seemingly no weakness in sight, but if an electric mouse can kill by just grabbing you with his little stubby paws, does it matter?

0
guedesbrawlSakura (Trick or Defeat!)•

The funny thing is that (unless this changes; it has been years) Fox is still top or high tier in japan, whereas Pikachu is mid.

1
i8AP4T•

Where do you use coloured bows though?

Arena you are better off with a mage who can actually cut through all the armored units. But even then, both options wont get you far because of BST.

For PVE, colourless bows don't require you to plan match ups, or worry about reinforcements. Shit, you can wipe entire maps with a bow and some dancers. That's going to be harder with a coloured bow.

AA you might see coloured bows work well. L!Lucina for example is a good counter for the new tiki. But then again, you can use pretty much anything in AA since you get to see what you are up against, and only need them to win one match up.

Personally I like the introduction of coloured bows, makes the game more varied and interesting. Though I likely wont be using my L!Lyn or L!Lucina anytime soon.

1
FeneskraeTiki (A Sketchy Summer)•

I agree that much of the hate the colored bow designations got was because we only had one example at the time. Now that we are slowly starting to get new members in these classes people are going to realize that they are not inherently terrible. I also think that part of it has to do with people being afraid of change and new things. Colorless tomes are another example I see that get a lot of disapproval. I don't see why they get so much disapproval, seeing as we don't yet have any members with colorless tomes, but again I am certain they will have their own useful roles given time. I've seen the comparison made that colorless tomes already exist in the form of staves, but I would argue that they really don't given the fact that staves can be used for healing and they are locked out of a lot of skill choices. I think there are a few characters who could reasonably belong to a colorless magic class, namely Nergal, Limstella, and maybe Athos.

1
Suasive2Rhajat•

It's fine that we have a few as legendary units, but it's also important to take a step back and ask why bows are colorless in the first place. The game could have easily launched with all colored bows and colored dagger units and imo been worse off for it. Just like how we have F!Grima as a colorless dragonstone, it's okay to have these occasional bends but they should stay the exception.

1
stormrunner89Hector (Marquess of Ostia)•

I'm thinking they are leading up to more colorless melee units, like ones with fangs and claws.

1
Viola_BuddyChrom (Spring Festival)•

Colorless bows were a terrible addition, but not at all because of how good or bad their gameplay is - I generally agree with your points in this post.

The biggest problem is that they split up an already small class of people (archers) into four classes, spreading the numbers even thinner. So while we have loads and loads and loads of swordspeople, we're going to have not even a handful of archers of each color. Introducing throwing swords/javelins/hand axes would've at least split up the giant classes rather than increase the disparity of the sizes of the classes.

Also, that we're not getting colored bows for actual banners, but only on two legendary Heroes so far. What was the point of introducing them if they practically don't exist?

And combining the above two points, this is what's driving the monopoly that F!Spoilers!Robin has over the legendary colorless heroes. Daggers are a very recent invention so there aren't many options there, and healers seem to be disfavored in FEH overall. So now that bows are not even colorless anymore, that leaves no one to fill in for the colorless legendary hero except, apparently, a single colorless dragon.

Finally, the fact that Bowbreaker doesn't work on them, same as the lack of Dragonbreaker (as you've mentioned). This is probably my only gripe with colored bows, gameplay-wise.

1
guedesbrawlSakura (Trick or Defeat!)•

We will need time to see if this theory holds up, but if IS decided to have exactly four legendary heroes for each color, then the Bows were done out of necessity.

Leaving aside the Dragon wild card, Green is Wind Magic and Axes. Our only big shot that uses Axes by default is Hector, and they already had to use an OC to get to a Wind Tome hero. Lyn being tied to a legendary Bow which is itself associated with Wind made her a good fit to pad the color out.

On the blue side... the villain probably will be the Colorless poll. Again, only time will show us, but if my theory is right then Colorless is a huge pain in the ass to fill with 4 heroes. Two people that CAN work reasonably in those slots are a Healer Micaiah and Kinshi Azura, who'd be otherwise in the Blue slots.

Or i'm completely wrong, lol.

1
GunCastorRobin (Fell Vessel)•

First impressions are important and L!Lyn was our very first colored archer. As you stated, she isn't the best unit and needs a lot of work to be decent. Besides the fact that she is a green archer and speed tactics, she also doesn't stand out much. She's supposed to be legendary, a rare and powerful character. She is also an alt, turning the sub into the saltiest of mines. This leaves a negative impression on our first colored bow. It is indeed not the fact that she is green that makes her bad but people can easily associate colored bows = L!Lyn = bad.

L!Lucina has a much better kit and an awesome personal skill. I hope that other colored bows released in the future will be quite powerful as well.

1