Labour MPs call for party conference vote on second Brexit referendum
standard.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mps-call-...
standard.co.ukPosted Aug 10, 2018, 9:42 AM UTC
262121
standard.co.ukWhile I want to remain in the EU, I xan understand the lack of willingness in calling for a second referendum.
If Brexit wins again, that's the end of whoever called the second referendum. No one wants to end their political career the exact same way Cameron did, and they'd even look stupider.
I'd rather someone just had the balls to step in and stop it.
22
For a second referendum it needs to be far more clear what we are voting for, preferably with ranked choices. Remain is very simple, whereas leave covers a wide variety of options. I expect many people would far prefer to remain than accept a no deal brexit. The original referendum being only stay/leave was a massive mistake.
17
I have a fraction of sympathy for how it was; it's very hard to actually come up with and have everyone think in real terms when it's a complete hypothetical, as well as to treat it with the level of seriousness it should command. We saw this in terms of claims about "easiest deal ever" etc. The other side to that is you don't want to say "oh well if leave win then we'll figure out the options and have another vote with a cancel option".. because then everyone would vote just to find out what the options are.
This doesn't mean however, that a "brexit means brexit" line makes any sense. Now we are seeing closer to reality, we should have a vote like you talk about.
4
We SHOULD have a second vote.
We SHOULD NOT have a second brexit referendum.
If we have to vote again and the question is “Should britain stay in the EU” i’m crossing the “remain” box so hard it will tear the paper and damage the desk.
I voted remain. Yes, there are problems with us being members of the EU. Should we dive deep into uncertainly while we untangle a bureaucratic mess?. God no.
Let’s fix the problems without having to sacrifice the benefits of being attached to the EU. If some EU douchebag wants to say “well you can’t do that”, we’ll just have to do it any way and point out that’s what our population wanted.
We know the problems. We know what we need to do. Get it in a vote.
2
Voting to leave the EU due to them having 'problems'is the equivalent to voting for a dictatorship because democracy have 'problems'. Its such a stupid and illogical argument that doesn't make any sense.
3
No it isn’t, it’s saying to the EU that we won’t tolerate their bullshit.
-6
Or their damned democratic processes. I mean, good god, we didn't get to rule the world by being democratic..
5
I think that a second referendum would be much more divisive than the first.
Whilst I'm still against the idea of Brexit, I think labour will drum up more support for the soft Brexit camp, if the could focus on how to go through this process with the least amount of scars possible.
I think that if remain won a second vote, then the public opinion will not change, and the Brexiteers will be much louder.
It's like if trump lost, the trump fanbase would be even more passionate, and the pressure would continue to build
1
Might be better if they'd backed a pro-EU leader.
7
Yep
0
This makes it less likely a vote will happen.
Blairite MP's would be wise to keep their mouths shut if they want enough delegates to put a second referendum on the conference agenda. 70-80% of CLP's are sending pro-Corbyn delegates from the left of the party, plus the unions and affiliated societies and means a solid left bloc at conference. If the 2nd referendum lot are serious about getting something from this year's conference they need to bind and gag every Blairite in the PLP and start working with the left for support.
Those delegates are likely to be sympathetic to remain and a second referendum, but they 1) have other priorities too, this time round their focus will be on getting mandatory reselection on the agenda, not the EU and 2) not prepared to damage the leadership or let the Labour-Right use it for a re-run of the Owen Smith bullshit from 2016.
Last time round at conference they could've got more than just a debate on the EU if they had the ability to read a room, but by making an alliance of Luke Akehurst and the AWL the figureheads of that push meant it was dead on arrival.
My advice to my friends and comrades on the Labour right is : drop the totally mad Blairite wreckers from fronting up the campaign and get some Ed Miliband or Clive Lewis type of soft left person to do it instead. Won't get through conference floor which is on the left if Wes Streeting and Jess Phillips front it up. Then do a Deal with momentum - since the alliance between them and Unite is enough to carry conference, you need to cut a deal with Momentum to get what you want (and make sure Corbyn sticks to it) something along the lines of .... the right gives up mandatory reselection in return for us helping get a vote on a second referendum scheduled perhaps?
If that did happen there's every chance once it goes to a vote and either it loses or, more likely, someone throws an amendment in to water it down, but that's the only way you lot can make it work and I have no faith in the strategic geniuses of the right wing of the party to pull this off
6†
Most of the pro-Corbyn members want to stay in the EU. The EU is actually more popular among Corbyn's supporters than among Blairites.
14
The EU is actually more popular among Corbyn's supporters than among Blairites.
Do you have a source for that because i find it a bit of a surprising claim.
7
Most of the pro-Corbyn members want to stay in the EU.
Sure. Doesn't mean it's one of their main priorities though.
The EU is actually more popular among Corbyn's supporters than among Blairites.
Not even close to true. The EU is a religion to most Blairites.
6
Yes, I know, but they are also pro-Corbyn and if you want their support the Labour right need to tone down the leadership speculation if they want to win the wider membership over.
They have the support to do this if they are clever and win over the Corbyn-supporters, but if they use it as a stick to beat the party leadership these people will become ultra-defensive immediately and you will not get a look-in, just like in 2017.
2
you will not get a look-in
They won't anyway.
We aren't stupid.
Jess Philips, Streeting and all the other people in Labour who've fought to undermine and destroy the party are done.
We don't forget so easy, and we remind those who have. Labour right have lost.
2†
I have no faith in the strategic geniuses of the right wing of the party to pull this off
Judging by history there then :) they've been less than useless and most of their campaigns appear to drive people away from them... I'd guess it is because the tactics too closely resemble that of the Tories.
1†
I'd guess it is because the tactics too closely resemble that of the Tories.
Like being successful in elections...?
I can't say I know anything about Labour party politics but this far left user is certainly biased as is ST616 and I can't recall the left of Labour actually winning any elections in my lifetime.
Even though I am sympathetic to a moderate left stance, you can't do shit without a decent economy so Brexit should be the number 1 priority.
Basically they are too blinded by this possibly window to 'nationalise something, anything' they don't seem to see the big picture or recognise the fact that there are experts who think it's entirely possible to nationalise industry in the EU and also the fact that nationalisation isn't some panacea, could achieve the same control over the wealth they bring in with proper taxation.
0
you can't do shit without a decent economy so Brexit should be the number 1 priority.
Basically they are too blinded by this possibly window to 'nationalise something, anything' they don't seem to see the big picture or recognise the fact that there are experts who think it's entirely possible to nationalise industry in the EU and also the fact that nationalisation isn't some panacea, could achieve the same control over the wealth they bring in with proper taxation.
I don't really buy into this.
It's a bit annoying because my stance is probably not straight forward like many peoples, and yes you have a point about the economy, but if removal of a Tory party isn't the number one priority, then we are all going to be eating shit sandwiches from their destructive brexit.
Who is far left anyway?
1
Not saying you are far left, I'd probably align with you on a lot of your opinions, talking about Bennite and STS up there, they have a raging hard on for going 'full socialist' and nationalising everything.
but if removal of a Tory party isn't the number one priority, then we are all going to be eating shit sandwiches from their destructive brexit.
I'd put up with the Tories for longer if it means no Brexit, Brexit is not something I would pay for a Labour government, otherwise I probably would support Corbyn right now.
Honestly, if there was an election and the Tories stoof on a remain platform... I'd have to fucking hold my nose and seriously consider voting for them, hopefully just that once. I probably wouldn't as it doesn't matter how I vote, safe Labour seat here... so keep my conscience clear.
Brexit is the number 1 issue today, it will affect everything and there won't be a cat in hells chance of change if we let the Tories and their Brexit supporters become even richer with more scope for removing our rights by Brexit. May is just itching to get us out of the EHCR and being in the EU is a major barrier to that.
I know those other two above think that Brexit will go ahead and Corbyn will storm to power they might be right (if he survives his own party) but I don't think he will be able to do what he wants with the economy in the shitter and I certainly don;t think it is a price worth paying to get a Corbyn government. In fact if he is willing to impact so many people's lives negatively just to get in, makes me think less of him.
Party before country as other users have said in other threads in this post, I'm already thoroughly sick of that shit and Corbyn is supposed to be different, this just show's he isn't.
6
[removed]
1
Wonder if they'll all back down like last time.
2
They voted in a guy who has done nothing, and are now complaining because he’s not doing anything. What are they complaining about? They got exactly what they voted for, from him.
1†
If its genuinely what membership and voters want, beyond doubt, Labour will support it.
Corbyn will then be pummeled in the media as having been defeated and how weak and awful is.
1
Labour will never win a general election while Corbyn is leader.
-3†
And last year it was near-universally said that the last election would decimate Labour, yet Labour got enough votes to force a hung parliament that nobody had predicted.
12
To win a majority government you need to appeal to non partisan voters, mainly the middle class. Labour run by Corbyn will never appeal to the middle class. Labours only hope is another Blairite character.
-8
Who are you to say what the middle class thinks or feel? I don't get this "Middle class never vote Corbyn, ahh Blairite on the other hand!" It's just utter nonsense to me.
You speak for nobody but yourself.
5
Labour run by Corbyn will never appeal to the middle class.
Would you like to explain why you erroneously think that?
5
No.
-2
Not that long ago it was "only the middle class like Corbyn, the working class hate him" not it's "only the working class like Corbyn, the middle class hate him".
4
Surprisingly enough, he probably engages each on particular issues.
2
That phrase has been uttered so many times it's a wonder it hasn't worn a hole in reality. It's as vapid now as it was back then.
Why won't he win an election? How does that reasoning tally with the results of the previous election? Or with local council elections?
Corbyn can win a general election, even if for no other reason than he's up against an even more unpopular figure. Please, if you want to pick at his credibility at least come up with something new.
6
I don’t need to come up with something new. Labour didn’t win last year with Corbyn as leader. It won’t win next election with Corbyn as leader.
-6
Oh well, I tried.
1†
So did Corbyn last general election.
0†
Corbyn is the only Labour leader to gain seats since 1997. That's 20 years of decline until Corbyn. By all means continue to live in your Tory/LibDem/Blairite fantasy land until the next election though.
0
[deleted]
0
The facts prove your notion is wrong.
0
Has anyone found out what Gabby Logan thinks of this?
-3
People need to let this go. The only thing Labour calling for a second referendum would achieve is guaranteeing they get smashed in the next election.
-4
Total bollocks.
The way the news reports on internal party politics is pretty moronic.
There has been a large membership push for a vote for ages, and to be honest, don't ever believe anything Wes Streeting/Chucka and his bunch of hypocritical blairite pricks say, they don't give a fuck about the EU, just like they didn't give a fuck about antisemitism, it's simply blairites trying to cling on to a party they hijacked years ago. In fact, these are the very same bellends who are apparently plotting to create a new centrist party.
I also think MOST members realise that the Labour party brexit position has to reflect the country, not the membership.
Also, keep downvoting for facts guys, it really helps your naivety on this matter.
-7†
It should reflect either the members (remain) or their voters (remain). If it just represents "the country" why the fuck would we even have political parties? We could just vote for everything in mass referenda, it's not like the people are ever wrong.
18
Because the members take a more nuanced stance than reddit or the country at large.
If you get behind a second ref now, it kills that political party (which is why the Labour right want us to do that). So, because members are generally more informed, we want to discuss the policy, and we want to aim it at whatever is most broad, most room to manoeuvre and for something acceptable to both sides.
What we do not want to do is kill the party and let the actual biggest threat to us off the hook (Tories).
Whilst at the same time, this gives the Tories enough rope with which to hang themselves, it also positions Labour into negotiating (should there be a GE and Lab win) for the country and coming back with several options which we or parliament vote on.
4†
It's such a shame that every party puts party ahead of country.
They never do what's good for the country, it's always putting the party first.
Such a shame.
8
"No compromise with the electorate"
0
Yep that's it, the Labour right want to do it to kill the party.
4†
Yep, I don't even think they are trying to hide it anymore.
Of course the news won't report it, but this has been going on for two years, if some people don't think that this is what is going on, that this is what it is about, when the voices of right wing Jews are amplified and those of the left wing Jewish community are shunned, then it should be so apparent to all in what is going on.
Some people don't like talking about this though. Some people refuse to believe it. And some people willfully mislead in relation to it.
But it is sad to see they'd put their careers above the country, trying to undermine Labour so they can form a new party (because they will never get back into power within Labour now) is extremely frustrating especially when each cause they pretend it is helping, just goes to undermine that cause, be it brexit or racial discrimination.
4†
[deleted]
1
blairites
Safe to ignore. Won't believe anything that goes against Saint Corbyn.
12
What do you want me to do, call them by their factional names? Progress and Labour First members then. And the OFOC members. And the Peoples Vote kids. Funded by the likes of Alastair Campbell.
If you are going to write off what I've said because you don't agree with a bit of terminology I use to group the right learning Labour MPs then more fool you.
4
You're continually propping up a leader who is polling lower and lower and isn't representing the changing views of the electorate on Brexit.
Corbyn needs to go before we end up with another Tory majority.
14
polling lower and lower
See you cannot even grasp basic facts.
Corbyn needs to go before we end up with another Tory majority.
You don't vote Lab anyway. Not unless you get a centrist party. You'll vote for LibDems, quite blatantly.
And again, well done in enabling the far right with your nonsense bullshit.
BTW, I'll save you some effort, if you are going to come across as a swivel eyed #FBPE poster boy, don't bother responding because trying to blame Labour or Corbyn for Brexit is something so moronically pathetic, I won't engage :)
Cheers
3
Funded by the likes of Alastair Campbell
I mean that won't get them very far, he's not extraordinarily wealthy and not from a very wealthy family. I mean he's definitely not poor by any means at all, but he's hardly a major player as far as donors go... all the big donors are unions, not private individuals.
4
Actually, looking at your posts, you are clearly a part of one of those groups I listed.
So well done in doing the Tories work for them by trying to remove the brexit toxicity from them and putting it on Corbyn.
Unfortunately for you lot, this has already failed as a tactic and only the completely uninformed believe it. Enjoy wallowing in ignorance.
2†
It would probably help if Corbyn stopped whipping his party to vote through a Tory Brexit.
10
It would probably help if you understood parliamentary process rather than mouthed off on the internet from a place of absolute ignorance.
It's funny because you people who pretend you know waht you are talking about, really let the cat out of the bag on your own lack of knowledge as soon as you open your gob.
-2†
That's a pitiful bit of dismissal.
1
I think the other replies here only served to prove me right.
4
Ah, appeal to popular opinion. Been a while since I saw that one.
But to the point: Blairite isn't some stupid offense term like libtard or cuck, Blair had a different vision for the party than what it had been up that point. Calling an MP a Blairite is simply a description. Dismissing what someone says just because they used the word is about as 'right' as dismissing someone for using the word 'Tory'. Which actually has greater negative connotations behind it given the root of it translates out as something like 'taker' or 'thief'.
-1
I would love a second referendum just to see the absolute carnage and tears when leave wins again.
-15
leave wins again
To be honest, if a second ref was called now, leave probably would win.
2
[deleted]
1
Well that would be because you are a moron.
2
If leave win again on a sensible ranked choice system containing multiple options from "Leave - No Deal", through to "Remain", where the economic and social impact of each option has been clearly explained (with no bullshit $350 million for NHS from the leave group this time) to the populace then I will accept that, even as a staunch remainer. I do of course reserve the right at that point to work towards emmigrating to a country that I feel is more compatible with my views.
The last referendum was a disgrace, "leave" was advertised with such a wide variety of options, from hardest brexit, to "Norway model", that it's not at all clear people knew what they were voting for. It should have been used as a opinion poll, which should not have resulted in article 50, but instead the groundwork to find out what options there were for a brexit, and what their impacts could be. That should then have been followed by a second referendum. Of course David didn't think there was a chance leave would win so didn't plan any of this in.
Edit: Added a bit more opinion
2
Absolute scenes on this sub
-3†
Looks like the very people who kept him at the top now want him to actually do something.
Erm, as much as this might be how the media make it out, the membership, of which includes myself, has always wanted to discuss this, but we also understand there is a time and a place due to pushing for this at the wrong time would only make it so that we (as Labour) can be attacked from all sides again.
The members are a bit fed up with being constantly on defence from attacks in the media. And whilst the OFOC people are only there really to push the agenda of Campbell and their backers, the part of the members who are actually informed understand why we need to wait until conference.
Now, you'll get people in this thread, who've already responded who are guided only by what they read in the news.
They don't talk to Labour members, they don't get involved in internal party discussion so they can only know by how the media presents it to them and they make particularly fallacious claims and opinions because of that.
If people genuinely want to know what goes on inside Labour, why there isn't a mass of people calling for this publicly (although we've done several surveys within Labour) then you need to get involved in the internal political workings of Labour by either becoming a member or speaking to a member who has the patience to explain it all.
There is no point the blind leading the blind in this thread, there is no point upvoting what you want to hear and downvote what you don't. It's either the truth or not?
OFOC aren’t controlled by Campbell. They’re young people absolutely frustrated by the fact their future has been torn from them and can’t understand why Corbyn, who they put their hopes in has consistently been pro-Brexit, and supported Tory policy rather than attacking it. If you actually listened to them, rather than just pigeon holing them you might understand that.
Obviously they should have paid attention to the fact that Corbyn does want to leave the EU before pinning their hopes on him.
lol Sure mate.
He literally is a part of them.
Do you have a source for that?
Cool, so we just need to have faith in Corbyn.
Surely he will lead us into glorious IngSoc
Fuck off mate.
Which is fair but an explanation would be useful to those of us who don’t have access to the inner machinations of Labour Party membership
Well you are always welcome to ask if you see me commenting on stuff.
I think you'd be surprised at how many Labour members, especially the new ones support a 'Left Brexit'. Those votes Corbin got weren't young people turning out to vote Corbin, they were the UKIP supporting Labour voters coming back.
Corbin's position on Brexit is probably much closer to the membership that most in the thread think
78% of Labour members want a second referendum, 87% want to stay in the single market.
https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/965iw2/labour_mps_call_for_party_conference_vote_on/
Corbyn has always stood up for member-led internal democracy, so any moment now I expect him to take up this position. Any moment now.
"Look, when we called him principled because he never changed his mind we didn't actually mean it"