Source
r/Eve•
rootnegative

Question about the carrier balance debate

With all the sub cap - cap balance debate going on, I have a question.

Why is nobody talking about the application of frigate sized fighters v frigate sized frigates? Why do people have an issue with the damage application of like sized ships?

For example, in a 9 v 9 fighter v frigate fight, based on my analysis the frigates always win. Not only can they be fit more accurately (with better tank), they represent harder targets in almost every way? They deal more damage on a hull to hull basis compared to fighters and are more survivable, which is the way it should be. Hell, throw frigate logi into the mix and it gets even worse. Throw in ECM and its completely one sided?

Or is the problem that you need to have 27 frigates to go hull for hull with a carrier that has three flights out? Even in that example, a shitfit carrier costs 1.5billion. That gives you approximately 50-60mil per frigate before you reach cost parity and most frigates are cheaper to fit than that.

Needless to say, I think there's holes in my understanding and would appreciate some guidance.

Posted Oct 27, 2018, 11:19 AM UTC

065
Nitrodrifter•

The issue is gameplay. Carriers just perform too good against every size of ships.

Let's take Dreads for example. You have to make a choice if you want to be good against Subcaps or capitals and fit accordingly. You have to activate the siege module that keeps you in place for some time and makes you vulnerable against counterdrops. Carriers don't.

Their big weakness was ECM that just got nerfed really hard in this aspect.

16
DobroslavAPod Liberation Authority•

makes you vulnerable against counterdrops

Not only that but it locks you down to the grid. If the subs don't want to fight they can warp off and you're stuck there, you can't chase or cyno ahead, meanwhile a super/carrier can just gate after you at about the same speed as a cruiser.

3
Lorenzo_MaulerantGoonswarm Federation•

If its gating at the same speed as a cruiser thats a pretty shit fit carrier and will die to a handful of frigates

4
DobroslavAPod Liberation Authority•

You literally just need to fit hypers, you don't need the trimarks to tank long enough to cyno a fax.

9
Lorenzo_MaulerantGoonswarm Federation•

I'm assuming solo carrier tbf, and hypers only help with the warp speed, you still will have years of align time if you're not hindering tank, dps, tracking ability with MWDs and nano/istabs

2
OphekkisLazerhawks•

Well for starters the application is not only broken against frigates but basically against any subcap. And the “frigate sized” fighters are the most op frigates ever. They go 14 km/s and apply more damage than high dps brawling ships of the same size to every subcap, while the subcap is completely untackled and kiting at speed. Imagine if long range battleship guns had that kind of application. This very much breaks the bigger is not always better principle in eve. Some roaming gang harassing your rorq? Drop carriers with faxes on them and eighter they fuck off or they die. The application should be more in line with haw dreads. Applies very well to big things or small things that are webbed and painted by support, applies very poorly to small and fast untackled stuff

10
FistulatingHotline K162•

You forgot to mention, they can apply this DPS grid wide

4
rootnegativeOPTest Alliance Please Ignore•

And the “frigate sized” fighters are the most op frigates ever.

I don't see how though? A single fighter does roughly 100dps?

-5
OphekkisLazerhawks•

A carrier has 3 squads of 9 fighters each. So a single player effectively controlling 27 100 dps frigates that are more than twice as fast as a high grade snaked dramiel doesn’t seem op to you?

9
DobroslavAPod Liberation Authority•

https://i.imgur.com/oU1yyow.png

Looks like a dramiel can hit the 12.8km/s speed of T2 Templars on a nid... For the price of 3.6b. Since a carrier controls 27 of these... Maybe just make the carrier cost 100b.

9
toddy-GA•

Not if you discount the Dramiel for lack of target saturation. Twenty seven on grid times 45 million ISK per discounted Dram is a carrier hull in cost (1.2BB).

1
madfiddlerresistance•

It isn't relevant to balance that a single fighter does 100 dps any more than it's relevant to balance how much mass a 1400mm shell has or what the lore explanation for faster-than-light travel is or why projectiles apply instantly to targets just like lasers. Those are just quirks in the game that should not have bearing on balance.

2
madfiddlerresistance•

Why is nobody talking about the application of frigate sized fighters v frigate sized frigates? Why do people have an issue with the damage application of like sized ships? ... Needless to say, I think there's holes in my understanding and would appreciate some guidance.

​

The main hole in your understanding is that it fighters are basically just big, fancy drones, and that their size shouldn't really be relevant to how they perform. Should ogres apply even better to frigates than fighters? They're smaller after all! Fucking warriors should be able to go 50km/s and apply 100% dps to frigates while orbitting at that speed if fighters should be able to go 15km/s and apply to cruisers and smaller, by that logic.

Your cost analysis is flawed because you're only looking at hull costs, when there's also the fact that the carrier is 1 account and the 27 frigates are 27 accounts (and possibly even 27 separate players). Of course the 27 accounts/players should be able to work over a carrier even if the 27 frigate hulls/fits only cost 1/3 or whatever of the carrier hull/fit.

There's a million things in Eve that don't really "make sense" from a lore or logic standpoint, because it's a game, and the goal is that the game is balanced and fun and interesting to play even if some of the numbers seem goofy here or there. My ogre vs fighter example? Fighters are 1000m3 volume, 1000kg mass, 100m signature radius. Ogres are somehow 12 times more massive while taking up only 5% as much space, and having the same signature radius. These are pretty fucking clearly NOT numbers you should look at to determine how well they should be applying DPS. Lol. Warriors? 4x the mass but .5% the volume, 25% the sig radius of a fighter. Trying to use those numbers to determine how these things should apply DPS is just on-its-face absurd.

​

10
Themick_EveJoin Total Mayhem•

Your scenario is pretty strange. 9 fighter squads means three carriers versus your 9 frigates. If three carriers cannot fend off 9 frigates then those carrier pilots are beyond help.

Also there are no 'frigate sized fighters,' light fighters are a capital sized weapon. The closest analog to a 'frigate sized fighter,' would be light drones, which are a frigate sized weapon.

8
ShilalasarWormholer•

The closest analog to a 'frigate sized fighter,' would be light drones

And how many ships cruiser size and up have boni to light drones. Sure, your Machariels light drones can fight a frig but only at the measly 80 dps they have. Even a domi barely gets 200. Not the 500+ applied a carrier does.

7
Themick_EveJoin Total Mayhem•

You're correct, but people will still clamor that fighters are fine.

3
madfiddlerresistance•

Also there are no 'frigate sized fighters,' light fighters are a capital sized weapon.

This. Tons of people are throwing around this "argument" that "well a light fighter is about the same size as a frigate so of course it should apply super fucking well to cruisers." It's asinine. Such a retarded apples-to-oranges comparison.

3
MwH_LokiSpaceMonkey's Alliance•

I’d like to fly a ship with plated thorax hp, 14km/s, 700dps and incoming damage capped ship for 90m myself.

3
Themick_EveJoin Total Mayhem•

I'm not going to sit here and claim I'm some Eve mechanics mastermind, but idk it seems like a pretty simple piece of knowledge to obtain.

2
rootnegativeOPTest Alliance Please Ignore•

light fighters are a capital sized weapon.

because they're the same size as a frigate... A fighter has a similiar amount of hp as a frigate.

Also, there are 9 fighters in a flight.

-2
Themick_EveJoin Total Mayhem•

Why would you compare nine weapons to a ship?

That's like comparing seven blasters, or three torpedo launchers. The comparison is faulty.

7
rootnegativeOPTest Alliance Please Ignore•

so wait, you're counting the entire flight as one ship? All 9 fighters in a flight? That counts as one?

-4
Themick_EveJoin Total Mayhem•

Fighters aren't ships. Carriers are ships, fighters are the weapons used by carriers and super carriers. Why would I count them as ships?

11
DobroslavAPod Liberation Authority•

The issue people have with them is that they are extremely oppressive to subcaps anywhere on grid with them, with very few options to outplay them (or even survive). You basically have to fly 100mn against them, which is no fun. If you fly anything else expect some random frig to teleport carriers to you every time you engage anything.

Their cost is also laughable. In my alliances most valuable kills for the week we have 1 carrier in third place and one in seventh place. The rest are subcaps that outprice carriers and don't get insurance.

5
SomeDuderr•

Im not gonna read any of this.

But there'd better be a vintage-2007 "Speedboat vs aircraftcarrier" analogue in here.

2
LordHarkonen•

You are trying to get a rational response from the salty small gang/solo players who dream of killing big ships unrestricted.

-5†
Themick_EveJoin Total Mayhem•

If this was your take away you need to go read that blog again.

10
Adrian_OstadeGoryn Clade•

Yes, if thats what your understanding of balance is.

6
iw0t•

who dream of killing big ships unrestricted

literally noone wants or is asking for that.

but its ok. im not surprised the average nullsec f1 monkey isnt able to read nor understand stuff.

4
FistulatingHotline K162•

There has been plenty of rational responses, backed up by facts and figures from players who are clearly more intelligent than most of the playerbase. The irrational responses have all come from people reeing about how carriers should dominate everything just because

I have not seen a well thought out and written argument to why carriers are in a good place for the balance of the game

3
LordHarkonen•

People either complain that they attack a whale and get mad null blocs want to defend their assets OR "My kite gangs cant take on a whale". So the response is to nerf the carrier to punish groups who have worked to build defense fleets to protect their whales.

0
FistulatingHotline K162•

No one gets mad nullblocs want to defend their krabs, that is 100% the only reason we all roam. TO GET FIGHTS.

We complain that carrier application is ridiculous and it means that all anyone flies is carriers, and to stay on grid with said carriers we have to fly 1 specific fleet comp. It's killing the variety in the game. It won't even punish nullblocs, it just means they'll have to undock more than just carriers, like maybe any of the multiple web bonused ships in the game.

4
Stuman28Hotline K162•

But then they would need to support their capital ships with support ships!

The horror of things making sense.

6
LordHarkonen•

I understand the purpose of roaming, and I also understand that it's harder to change up roaming fleet fits that can survive the supercap umbrella, but that's the point of the umbrella, which is to deter roams from getting kills in home space. If carriers get nerfed null blocs will find the next ultimate escalation to stop roaming gangs to replace them, because that is the fundamental reason these groups still exist. Wouldn't it be more productive to lobby to reinvigorate the many other areas of the game cough low sec that used to be great places for roam and not under the said umbrellas?

1
hagenissen666Northern Coalition.•

Those dudes need to re-think their tactics or go after targets that they can kill, then.

-8
Stuman28Hotline K162•

In 99% of null space there are three targets that you will frequently see:

  • Bot VNI/Gila
  • Ratting Carriers/Supers
  • Rorquals

What mystical target am I missing?

6
toddy-GA•

No Stuman, you’ll see every kind of ship just no Concord interventions. I may mine ISK with those three types, but what about hauling and PI?

1
Stuman28Hotline K162•

I don't understand the first part of this comment.

Yes haulers and PI ships are somewhere in that 1%. Most hauling is done by JFs and PI makes up such a small proportion of players in space I didn't bother to count it.

1
hagenissen666Northern Coalition.•

Other gangs that actually want to fight you?

If you can't find targets in nullsec, stfu and play a different game.

-2
Stuman28Hotline K162•

Either you don't actually roam or you live in some mythical region the rest of us are yet to find.

The only other roamers you will find are the small gang guys like me, we do fight but actually running into each other is rarer than gnats piss as there's only about three smallgang corps left.

1