CMV: "Black Culture" doesn't exist and isn't a helpful term

Disambiguation:. My use of "Black Culture" within this context refers specifically to the expressions and creation of culture within America that is associated with blackness.

My understanding of culture (the arts, beliefs, customs of a people) is that cultures are themselves generally specific to a region, not a skin color. We wouldn't say that Nigerian culture is a part of "black culture", even though many Nigerians are black.

So what are we describing when we say "Black Culture"? If culture is regional, how useful is the term "Black Culture"?

Another problem I have with the term is it centers the culture around the skin color. However, referring to my example above, this is a misnomer, Black Culture doesn't exist as a form of culture tied to a skin color, but rather it is a form of culture tied to a lived experience of that skin color within a state that has previously conducted racialized chattel slavery, as well as apartheid. Therefore, "Black Culture" is better understood as "American Blackness Culture", as it is specific to a region (America), and reflects an embodiment of the lived experiences of those individuals who are defined by their skin color within a systemic racial class hierarchy that holds blackness as being intrinsically less valuable than whiteness.

This, I believe, is a much more useful term, and describes reality in a more cogent way, than black culture, which again, I don't believe can be said to exist, at least not without some agreed upon context that would simply reproduce the reality of the term I have used (an American culture that produces a shared experience along a shared lived reality, embodying blackness, IE: American Blackness Culture)

Further, the term is also useful because I don't believe white culture can be said to exist either, (sorry Richard Spencer, you are still an idiot) however, I do think American Whiteness Culture does. Consider the cultural trope of the Black Mammy.

The Black Mammy is usually characterized as a larger ("comfortable"), older, motherly or grandmotherly black woman, who is usually either a house slave or paid servant, depending on the time frame represented. She takes care of the "Master" of the houses children, and is generally seen as more "mothering", (performing the emotional labor characteristic of our definition of 'mother') than the children's biological mother. Common examples might include Gone With the Wind's Mammy, Deadwood's Aunt Lou, and Forrest Gump's Louise. The Black Mammy is an aspect of American Whiteness Culture, in that it was originally produced for, and consumed by, people embodying whiteness, for the purposes of evincing a kind of "safe" "neutered" portrayal of black femininity.

Teal Deer:

My preference for American Blackness Culture over 'Black Culture', is it regionalizes the subject while casting it as an experience of the embodied skin color, rather than the skin color itself. This represents a further disambiguation that also serves to call to count the racialized systemic hierarchy still present through much of American society.

Maybe you are with me, maybe you think I'm being overly pedantic. Maybe you completely disagree and have a strong argument as to why not. Lay it on me and I will consider it.

Posted Nov 12, 2018, 8:08 PM UTC

020
gscjj•

We wouldn't say that Nigerian culture is a part of "black culture", even though many Nigerians are black.

Let's be very clear here. "Black culture" typically refers to American Blacks and/or African-Americans. Blacks in America who can trace their lineage back to Africa. It does not usually refer to Africans directly.

Another problem I have with the term is it centers the culture around the skin color.

The term isn't tied to color has the name implies.

Therefore, "Black Culture" is better understood as "American Blackness Culture", as it is specific to a region (America)

Okay you're clarifying your own earlier statement to what's commonly understood already.

Further, the term is also useful because I don't believe white culture can be said to exist either,

White culture exist it's just not a culture that's defined by color. Usually it's German, Polish, Irish, British culture. Or American... as you mention earlier.

​

My preference for American Blackness Culture over 'Black Culture'

I believe your overall argument is poor. "Black culture" is usually attributed to the American Black/African-Americans. Very rarely do Africans consider themselves Black in the American-sense nor do American Blacks consider themselves African in your sense.

​

13
AnnaUndefindOP•

Let's be very clear here. "Black culture" typically refers to American Blacks and/or African-Americans. Blacks in America who can trace their lineage back to Africa. It does not usually refer to Africans directly.

Which is what I said in the beginning.

Another problem I have with the term is it centers the culture around the skin color.

The term isn't tied to color has the name implies.

I would argue the term implicitly ties itself to skin color rather than the experience of skin color within a racialized class hierarchy, which are functionally different.

Further, the term is also useful because I don't believe white culture can be said to exist either,

White culture exist it's just not a culture that's defined by color. Usually it's German, Polish, Irish, British culture. Or American... as you mention earlier.

I do address this in "whiteness culture". I wouldn't intrinsically classify British or German culture as 'white', because it wasn't always a product of whiteness culture. Whiteness culture is reliant on a racialized hierarchy, and the current racialized hierarchy based upon skin color is itself a very recent creation, being a product of the colonization of the world by the old powers of Europe. Thus, German culture can't be said to be intrinsically white, but it can be used by people wishing to argue for the preservation of a racial hierarchy by appealing to "German Whiteness".

Further, if black culture refers to black people in America but not black people in Africa, then why does "white culture" refer to various European countries with a wide variety of unshared cultural traditions? How can you argue black culture doesn't exist in Africa but then argue white culture does exist in Europe? I'm not sure i understand why Europe is special.

My preference for American Blackness Culture over 'Black Culture'

I believe your overall argument is poor. "Black culture" is usually attributed to the American Black/African-Americans. Very rarely do Africans consider themselves Black in the American-sense nor do American Blacks consider themselves African in your sense.

I'm not sure you have understood my argument. My argument is that a racialized culture can only exist within a racialized class system, thus it is not the skin color that shapes the culture, but rather a shared experience of embodying that skin color within the wider society that creates the culture. Thus the term Blackness Culture is a less ambiguous term than Black Culture. This is why Africans don't consider themselves black in the same way, because either they didn't exist under a racialized hierarchy, or that hierarchy was constructed in a different fashion. That's my point entirely. "Blackness" only exists within a racialized hierarchy.

The other side of my argument, is that if a country has a long history without a racialized class hierarchy based upon skin color, it's very likely the culture consumed and produced by citizens of different skin tones would likely be more homogenous.

2
gscjj•

Further, if black culture refers to black people in America but not black people in Africa, then why does "white culture" refer to various European countries with a wide variety of unshared cultural traditions? How can you argue black culture doesn't exist in Africa but then argue white culture does exist in Europe? I'm not sure i understand why Europe is special

Let me clarify white culture is usually Caucasian. Meaning white people in America trace their culture to their European origins. Likewise, Black culture traces there lineage to Africa.

White culture isn't usually called "white culture" or "Caucasian culture" it's usually attributed individual European countries. IE, Irish, German, Polish.

That's my point entirely. "Blackness" only exists within a racialized hierarchy.

I think the point your trying to convey is entirely semantic. To be "black", "black culture" and/or "blackness" are not mutually exclusive. One could refer to black as Black America, or Black culture as in the culture of Black Americans, or Black as in racial feature.

​

This is why Africans don't consider themselves black in the same way, because either they didn't exist under a racialized hierarchy, or that hierarchy was constructed in a different fashion

I agree that not all Africans grew up with the hierarchy but in the same sense most Africans don't consider themselves Black as in Black Americans. But they will also consider themselves black as in the color of their skins. The term is not mutually exclusive.

​

2
AnnaUndefindOP•

In many colonial African Nations the form of racism implemented by the colonizers was partially based on skin color, but also had a lot of basis in tribal identification, wherein Africans from different tribes were held as more or less valuable to the society. IIRC this was very much the system the Dutch Afrikaaners utilized to devastating effect.

I admit my point is mostly semantical in nature. It may simply be an exercise in pedantry. I still think it's a meaningful distinction, but you have given me something to think about.

0
DickerOfHides•

More specifically, African American refers to the descendants of sub-Saharan African slaves. So, African American in my opinion (and it could be wrong) are both a racial group (black) and an ethnicity. Being that all African-Americans share the same heritage, it would stand to reason that they would have a shared cultural experience no matter where they are in the US.

1
FIREmebaby•

The term is used colloquially to mean 'American Blackness Culture'. In conversation with most people, it is not required to explicitly state the context surrounding your words. The term "Blackness culture" makes sense in the context of America.

In the same way, White Culture makes sense when someone is speaking from within the context of America, there is no need anywhere other than academics to explain the entire context of a phrase that is colloquially understood.

9
AnnaUndefindOP•

I'm not entirely sure it is colloquially understood. Certainly it seems much of the time I hear "Black Culture", it invariably operates as a racist dogwhistle, and I'm about to read some racist shit. My hope is that shifting the language would require more critical engagement with reality.

0
Milskidasith139ƥ

I mean, yes, a lot of times people talking about black culture are doing so in a specifically racist way, or to make sweeping racial generalizations. And while I am generally willing to admit that some terms become so loaded with baggage that they cease to be useful, I don't think that "black culture" is at that point, and I've still seen it used as a positive and effective term as well.

2
Glory2Hypnotoad176ƥ

It sounds like this view might just be a matter of linguistics. When people talk about racial culture, it's generally understood that they're speaking in national terms. You're correct that there isn't a universal black culture, but what you describe fits a conventional understanding of the term "black culture."

3
AnnaUndefindOP•

Yeah, I admit it's probably me being overly pedantic. My preference for the term Blackness is it's centrality on the lived experience of the embodiment of the skin color within a racialized hierarchy rather than on the skin color itself.

3
ThatSpencerGuy106ƥ

My understanding of culture (the arts, beliefs, customs of a people) is that cultures are themselves generally specific to a region

This is an odd definition, isn't it? Why do you think culture is specifically regional? Culture can also be temporal, for example. People who grew up in the 90s have a shared culture that is a little opaque to people born before or after. But it can get even more granular: people who grew up in the 90s and were nerdy have a shared culture, even if they did not grow up in similar regions. So, if you are a nerdy person who grew up in the 90s (lots of Redditors are, which is why I picked this example), there are LOTS of cultural touchstones that you would share with other nerdy 90s kids from England and Canada that you would NOT share with your 70 year old next-door neighbor.

2
AnnaUndefindOP•

Yeah, absolutely, going back to the Black Mammy caricature, it changed with the times. I'm willing to expand my definition to the temporal, and never intended to leave it bereft of the temporal. That was simply an oversight.

As for "nerd" culture, that can be a little ambiguous. If we are talking about the depiction of nerds in mass media, big 'C' Culture, that's one thing, then there are people who might call themselves nerds or be described as nerds who might engage in a specific hobby or hobbyist culture. Those hobbyist cultures usually vary in their popularity or existence with the times.

0
Slenderpman25ƥ

Black culture inherently refers to cultural characteristics of black communities in countries where black people are the minority. If you're not in Africa or the Caribbean, the only regions on the planet with black majority countries, then black people are generally defined as a relatively homogenous community whereas African and black-caribbean countries are diverse in culture and ethnicity. This is a compound effect of the slave trade and generations of racism, creating a minority populations that are segregated from mainstream culture(s).

Therefore it makes perfect sense to call it "black culture". Given the assumption that white majorities create the dominant culture in white-majority countries, any common cultural characteristics amongst all black people in these countries are shared in a pool called black culture.

2
AnnaUndefindOP•

Those cultures themselves are centered around the experience of living as a "marked" person, as living as a "black" person within a racialized hierarchy. Those minority populations are segregated as an effect of that racialized hierarchy.

Let's say in fifty years somehow America manages to move past this class system, and being born black in America from an institutional standpoint isn't very different from being born white. Black people in this 2068 version of America are incarcerated at the same relative rates as white people, for the same amount of time, they have access to the same quality of education and perform the same as white people, their accomplishments are held with as much value as the accomplishments of white people, etc etc, ad nauseum (obviously this is in the context of the group, not the individual). Literally, racism ends. I would argue that, assuming that continues to be the case, there eventually wouldn't be a modern "black culture in America". There would be one historically, but the lines between "white" culture and "black" culture would become fainter and fainter as both cultures "shared" to the point where one was relatively indistinguishable from the other.

1
Slenderpman25ƥ

Please read through your own comment again. While I would sincerely hope that the scenario you’re laying out happens in less than fifty years, what you’re describing regarding the present is literally on the money exactly why the term “black culture” is correct. In fact, I would say your rebuttal is a better way of refuting your OP than my original comment.

1
TastyBurgers14•

The thing is is that black people have faced and continue to face oppression WORLD WIDE. Heck even in Africa you have oppression of black people. With the advent of social media and a connected world the black diaspora around the world has unified almost to actually be a black culture. I'm a black guy from the UK but if I go to China on holiday and see a black guy from America or a black guy from Nigeria I'm gonna nod n say whassup. It's just a deep bond that I'm sorry but no non-black person can ever have a say in this debate. I'm sorry but if you're not black you're view is changed by virtue that you simply cannot understand it to argue against it.

1
beengrim3220ƥ

I think its heavy handed to say that Black or White culture doesn't exist, but I do agree, in the anthropological sense, that American Blackness/Whiteness Culture has more fidelity. Your point of these terms could also be used to criticized the utility of racial categorizations all together, but judging by your statement about Nigerian...

> We wouldn't say that Nigerian culture is a part of "black culture", even though many Nigerians are black.

I'll assume that you still find some utility in racial classifications.

Black Culture an White culture are historically contentious and inconsistent terms that, in the united states especially, have a lot of weight. I think that it would help to consider how White and Black people identify culturally. It is not uncommon for American Whites to deny the significance of Whiteness and instead focus on very specific ethnic distinctions. Not White but Irish, Italian, English, Dutch, etc. The major exception is when filling out census information or when they feel it necessary to differentiate themselves from non-whites. Black people in the united states actively embrace the term and, largely due to the common history of most Africans in the United States (most famously Chattel slavery, systematic oppression, and economic disadvantage), there are certainly cultural patterns and practices that this group considers common. (Vernacular, Cuisine, Dace and Music)

What you are are mentioning sounds very useful, but it is very far removed from the ways in which people refer to and understand their own culture and the culture of others.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
beengrim3220ƥ

I guess what I’m saying is that the ways in which we are conditioned to classify kinds of humans also finds its ways into our understanding of culture. Whiteness and Blackness culture sounds more precise but it does nothing to challenge outmoded racialized distinctions between kinds of humans. Black and White culture are certainly less precise terms but in a way they are more accessible and more commonly circulated.

1
matt08220ify•

Have you ever watched the show the wire? I'm not going to lie that's what I tend to think about when it comes to black culture in the us. Either way there is certainly "black culture" in areas like us and uk, this is how ebonics was formed right?

-1
AnnaUndefindOP•

I haven't seen the show. Blackness culture within other countries would likely be different and would correspond to the extent the society employs a racialized hierarchy, and how this was historically carried out, or is currently carried out.

1