Americapox: The Missing Plague
Posted Dec 30, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC
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Relevant video - Dr. Michael Greger on Pandemic Prevention | Infectious Diseases, Aids, Climate Change, Influenza
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OMG, just watched this..
We're so fvkked..
I'm looking at pricing on cabin in the woods, high elevation, Snow all year..
Surprisingly affordable..
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The claim that the domestication of animals was essential for civilization wasn't supported in that video.
HIV came from monkeys, and the plague was carried by fleas on rats. Animals didn't have to be domesticated to be a source of disease for humans.
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If you read Guns, Germs, and Steel, the author hypothesizes that animal domestication among many other factors contributed to the dominance of Eurasian civilizations. So it’s not quite that it was essential, but it afforded them more success. And the worldwide number of domesticable animal species is small (Anna Karenina principle) and by chance they were mostly native to Eurasia, so other civilizations did not have that same advantage. Then the infectious disease load the Eurasians were accustomed to gave them an advantage over New World populations like the Native Americans who had no immune defense against smallpox etc.
Animal agriculture is one of many factors discussed. It’s a really good book.
Edit: Having actually watched the linked video, lol, it seems like he based it directly on the book. But, you can’t really “blame” animal agriculture for epidemic disease because if you change the factors that created plagues, our entire modern civilization wouldn’t exist. And look at pre-colonial Africa: no domesticated animals, no Euro-style cities, but rampant with malaria and other diseases largely due to climate. Eurasia just happened to have the Goldilocks level of circumstances that allowed development without killing them off entirely (like would happen to Africans if they tried to build dense cities). Check out the book!
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If you read Guns, Germs, and Steel, the author hypothesizes that animal domestication among many other factors contributed to the dominance of Eurasian civilizations.
That wasn't supported in the video. How does the author support that claim in the book?
And look at pre-colonial Africa: no domesticated animals, no Euro-style cities, but rampant with malaria and other diseases largely due to climate.
Surely they had domesticated animals, like the Masai (cattle). And camels. For thousands of years.
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Ah yeah sorry, the Africa part is about sub-saharan Africa. North Africa is climatically like the Middle East, which was very hospitable to civilization. Egypt, obviously. Also where cows were originally native to, so I don’t know how long the Masai have had them, but it hasn’t been forever. And herding animals nomadically is different from the settled agricultural pattern that led to urbanization. Looks like you can explain it better than me, it’s in your source there.
That wasn't supported in the video. How does the author support that claim in the book?
You’ll have to read it, or maybe the wikipedia article will suffice.
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Desktop link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel
^^/r/HelperBot_ ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove. ^^Counter: ^^228583
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Animal domestication being the only vector for disease wasn't quite the argument, just that it's a major vector. Bushmeat is a suspect for HIV transferring, also gotta recognize monkeys are a pretty close relative of ours so the jump is just easier.
The claim that the domestication of animals was essential for civilization wasn't supported in that video.
It makes living further away from the equator much easier. Essentially, you have farm animals eating unedible calories (grass, hay, etc) and transform them into edible form either via meat, milk, or eggs.
Also, barns with cows in them are livable in the winter without firewood and an age before really good insulation. Sheep provide wool, and wool is a lot warmer and withstands getting wet and staying warm despite it a lot better than cotton, linen and other plantbased alternatives and still do better than most synthetics.
We were producing a 10% caloric surplus on the Medieval farm 1000 years ago. That means when 100 people work on a farm, 10 other people were fed to become bureaucrats, craftsmen, etc. Today it's inverted if anything.
It seems we needed all the help we could get before petroleum. And as humans go really away from the equator, the diets tended to be primarily animal (Eskimos) without domestic animals to shoulder the load.
Even in places such as Egypt, you seen animal domestication on the hieroglyphs playing a major role.
Anyway, domestication being necessary for civilization wasn't my primary point. I think it can be done without animals, but that much harder.
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It makes living further away from the equator much easier. Essentially, you have farm animals eating unedible calories (grass, hay, etc) and transform them into edible form either via meat, milk, or eggs.
People did agriculture away from the equator, so the idea that animals make living easier away from the equator doesn't make much sense. And grains can be stored over the winter. Animal products were expensive for peasants - they had far fewer than we do. Potatoes etc. were cheap.
Wool has a reputation of being warmer than cotton, but that's a very limited benefit, if it's true at all, in my experience living in a very cold climate.
Thanks for repeating arguments from the book, but they aren't very convincing. None of that suggests that domesticated animals were crucial for civilization.
Actually, people argue the opposite these days - that it's essential to greatly reduce the use of domesticated animals so that our civilization doesn't suffer a catastrophe from global warming and pressure on resources - that we can use resources much more efficiently if the domesticated animals are cut out of the loop.
There were big South American civilizations before white people arrived.
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People did agriculture away from the equator, so the idea that animals make living easier away from the equator doesn't make much sense.
You seriously don't think steers for plowing made life easier? Really?!
Here was the use of animals on family farms:
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Pigs->Feed leftover slop->Turned to Meat
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Cows/Steers->Eat grass/hay->Meat, milk, labor (plowing), warmth in winter (barn)
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Chickens->Eats insects->Eggs and later meat
Animal products were expensive for peasants - they had far fewer than we do.
I agree, but they had them and it did help. And meat was the most expensive and rare because unlike today we didn't feed the animals crop calories. Pigs for instance, were not continuously slaughter, but more end of autumn so they wouldn't take food over winter - and then many parts dried/cured. But eggs and milk were more plentiful and continuous supply.
Wool has a reputation of being warmer than cotton, but that's a very limited benefit, if it's true at all, in my experience living in a very cold climate.
All the European armies outfitted their soldiers during cold climate with wool and cotton tended toward summer weight stuff. It's nice and breathable, but Cotton traditionally has very little insulation properties and loses them all when wet, while wool can still feel warm when wet. Because of sweat, mud, and generally shitty conditions, properties when wet is a huge factor.
Also, cotton was way more expensive before the cotton gin and industrial revolution. Clothes in general were expensive. Wool was very useful.
Actually, people argue the opposite these days - that it's essential to greatly reduce the use of domesticated animals so that our civilization doesn't suffer a catastrophe from global warming and pressure on resources - that we can use resources much more efficiently if the domesticated animals are cut out of the loop.
I agree with all this.
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I know this doesn't seem to have much to do with the Plantbased Diet on the face of it, but I'm surprised it was never posted here before as far as I can tell. The implications toward diet are astounding.
BTW, it's pretty reasonable assumption the next superbug that will come down the pipe will be the result of livestock fed constant antibiotics.
I think we're halfway there with things like MRSA floating around most hospitals today.