Want to move. Am I being realistic?

I’m a developer at a Big N and in early July I’ll hit 2 years in my current role. I started my current role as a new grad hire. I’m looking at new roles at other Big N, some well-funded startups, some finance firms, and some earlier stage startups.

Despite being ready for a change, my current role is awesome in what it provides:

  • 122k base (started at 107k -> minor promo in 6mo. -> merit increase 6mo later -> next potential pay bump coming up in March)
  • 19% cash bonus + 9k stock last year, both of which were effectively close to max given my current role. In showing me these my manager said something to the effect of “we brought you in under leveled”.
  • original stock grant was 120k in 3.5yr vesting schedule (got a vest from this today, woo!)
  • incredible independence. My manager lets me drive my role and figure out what needs to be done. Consistently receive great performance reviews even though I feel my reality is not worthy of it. I’m fairly critical in self evaluations.
  • have owned and delivered on large projects independently, but sometimes slowly.
  • incredible flexibility. I can work from home or remotely with little restriction, and there are essentially no barriers to vacation other than telling the team and reasonable timing to business goals.

To summarize: last year comp worked out to ~175k cash + vested stock.

My goal is twofold: I would like to try to close the gap to 200k TC or exceed it and pivot technically into a role deeper in IaaS layers or PaaS container offerings (Fargate, Kubernetes services, ACI). I’m flexible on the second component if I find a good fit in something else, e.g. a financial firm, but I’m deep into virtualization/Kubernetes and would love to drill further into that. I’d also love to see how some of the same issues we see internally are handled at scale in other organizations; I don’t want to be tied to the way we do things forever.

My current top targets are Google and Netflix. I interviewed with Google as a new grad, but accepted the offer to my current role before hearing back unfortunately (still kick myself for this). Google Cloud would be the dream and they are hiring like crazy apparently. On the financial side I’m interested in firms like Bridgewater, Two Sigma — ideally somewhere that has a culture valuing technology.

I’m also considering startups, but I’m not sure how successful that route will be for my goals. I interviewed and received an offer for a well-funded early stage startup (< 25 people, Series A done), but ultimately it didn’t pass my gut check (125k base, .08% of the post Series A option pool). That gave me some confidence on salary but made me wonder if I’m being realistic in my goals?

Now for the bad: my college GPA was a 2.86 (depressed better part of my jr/sr year). On the plus side: it’s one of, if not the, most well-recognized institutions in the world. No one in tech has seemed phased by the number, but finance I’m worried is a different beast. I also applied to AWS last fall and made it to onsites before self-selecting because I felt it was a bit early to jump ship, so it doesn’t seem they cared either.

If you made it through that wall of text, here are the questions swimming around my mind:

  • how realistic is my goal of increasing total comp given the kinds of roles I am targeting? Am I being unrealistic to be shooting for 200k or better all in? What about pushing for 250k from a company like Google? I’m totally happy with my current role if I can’t do this, so I’ve been flexing my negotiation muscles.

  • will financial firms give me the time of day with a 2.86, even if it’s from one of their favorites universities? Chatted with a few recruiters who acknowledged this issue, but wanted to move forward (agency, not internal, so entirely unsurprising).

  • how would you compare roles with similar comp at Big N (let’s use Google) against, say, Two Sigma?

  • am I potentially better off looking for an internal transition, given that that’s a possibility I’ve explored much less?

  • would a well funded, later stage “startup” e.g. Stripe, Flexport be able to match compensation compared to Big N?

TL;DR: currently 175k TC at Big N and enjoying it. Want to move, feasibility of 200-250k TC and/or will finance accept me with 2.86 GPA.

Posted Feb 15, 2019, 10:41 PM UTC · edited

414
Vadoff•

Why are you still putting GPA on your resume at all?

You probably need to get to L4 before getting 200-250k comp. I wouldn't worry about comp so much as making sure you're taking on the right learning/responsibilities in order to get to that next level. Some people don't, and are put on PIP (performance improvement plan) then usually kicked out. Others, prove themselves to be extremely capable and have extraordinary career trajectories as a result.

Also, most top tier startups can match comp, but the equity obviously won't be sellable on a public market.

You'll probably have a fair bit of difficulty getting into Netflix, they usually only hire senior engineers (pay is 300-500k), and it sounds like you're not at a mid-level yet.

12
ImportantStringOP•

I don’t put it. Mostly recruiters ask for it or my transcript. Frankly, the only reason I’m comp focused is student loans (a lot of them).

Interesting you think 200k is out of the ballpark without several big jumps — 250k I figured wasn’t reasonable but my thinking was that a push for 10-25k above current TC wouldn’t be crazy. Appreciate the input.

4
Vadoff•

L4 isn't a big jump, it's just one level above yours.

If you're fast, you can hit it in a year. If you're slower, maybe up to 2 years. Any longer and you'll usually be kicked out.

You can change companies for a slight pay bump, but honestly, you'll probably have to reset the clock on getting to the next level when you do (since you have to show your manager multiple times that you've been performing at above your level + take time to learn the codebase and proprietary tools/libraries).

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123123-1•

This isn't strictly true. The median time to L4 at google is 2 years. The stat is <5% of people do it in 1 year. If you or your team isn't very good its possible to take 3+ years to get to L4. Usually people just leave at that point.

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ImportantStringOP•

Ah, sorry — confusion mapping between companies. Makes sense!

1
[deleted]•
  • The importance of your GPA decays O(n^2) for every year you're out of school. Doubtful you'd even be asked or that they'd care.

  • what's wrong with staying where you are? If you want to flex your bargaining muscle, have a heart to heart with your boss and make the case that you feel like you're at the $200k level. And that you want new and more interesting things to work on. I don't have direct Big-N experience, but I imagine they get a couple of people who quit per day. It's probably cheaper for them to pay you $20k than onboard a new eager but clueless new grad.

  • the cost of moving cross county for a $200k job could exceed $20k in rent, lease breaking, furniture, tax etc.

  • finance isn't that cool. And they will drop you like a turd the second there is a downturn or you piss someone off.

  • if I were you I'd press your company to give you what it is you're looking for, technically and financially.

6
ImportantStringOP•

I should have clarified my desire to leave in addition to goals. It’s a combination of things.

  • team dynamic is pretty mediocre.
  • no long term path. I am very fortunate that I’ve been able to work on the things I have using the tooling I do, but the product group ultimately works on something I’m not passionate about.
  • feeling of stagnation professionally. This is difficult to articulate because the comp is great and I’m still learning a lot. I think this is sort of a concern that if I stay I’ll be ratholed into this role, combined with a lack of passion and a desire for new variety of challenging subject matter.
  • lack of technically excellent culture: this is rampant through the org. The focus is on results which is fine, but I am the kind of person who would prefer my pull requests to be shredded to bits with valuable criticism than be rubber stamped. I know my code is rarely, if ever, perfect. Especially for larger projects.

I’m not super worried about moving costs. My lease is up in the near future and I know I will be forced to move regardless of job. I’ve already been downsizing belongings in preparation for this, and it’s actually a factor that made me take another hard look at my current role.

I’m surprised about the job stability comments w.r.t finance — wouldn’t have expected that culture at smaller firms of that caliber.

2
frnkcnProp Trading Dev•

Two Sigma can get you better TC short term but in the long run your ceiling will be more likely higher bouncing between Big N imo (playing the politics for higher levels).

I don’t think Bridgewater has a culture that values tech in the way you’re looking for. The firms that have the BEST tech culture off the top of my head are Jane Street, Two Sigma, Hudson River Trading, and possibly DRW / Tower Research / Jump. That said, obviously tech makes up the backbone of trading in every firm now so they all know strong devs are important.

6
123123-1•

> will financial firms give me the time of day with a 2.86, even if it’s from one of their favorites universities? Chatted with a few recruiters who acknowledged this issue, but wanted to move forward (agency, not internal, so entirely unsurprising).

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Yes. I interviewed with jane street, 2 sigma, hrt, and citadel. Two sigma's recruiter told me they would need a transcript and implied there was a gpa cutoff. The agency recruiter I worked with for citadel told me the cutoff is 3.5. Jane st and hrt didn't ask about gpa. The online application for DE shaw asks for your gpa.

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> Am I being unrealistic to be shooting for 200k or better all in? What about pushing for 250k from a company like Google? I’m totally happy with my current role if I can’t do this, so I’ve been flexing my negotiation muscles.

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At 2 years of experience you're going to come in at L3 unless you are e4 at fb or senior at linkedin. Google likes to lowball candidates now, so you're going to need strong competing offers. If you counter with a fb e4 offer you can get to around 230k. If you get a jane street offer google can do 260k. Otherwise I'd expect something closer to 180.

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ImportantStringOP•

This is super helpful. I have a few friends at DE Shaw and figured they would be a long shot. I wasn’t sure about Two Sigma having a cutoff. I expected more trouble from Jane Street than Two Sigma on that front so it’s good to know I have a shot with JS. I’m less familiar with HRT and Citadel but knew Citadel asked for GPA on intake. Sounds like HRT might be something to look into based on peer comments as well.

The information about competing offers is extremely useful — this gives me a great frame of reference. Thanks!

1
123123-1•

The impression I got from interviews is HRT has the highest hiring bar for swe. The questions they asked were noticeably harder than peer companies. For example, the code question for two sigma's phone interview was just part one of one of my second round hrt phone interviews. I did a phone interview with citadel securities the next day. Since HRT and citadel securities are in the same business I assumed the interviews would be the same, but citadel asked an easier algo question and less in depth knowledge questions.

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Another point on the competing offers - you can't make up numbers in a competing offer because google asks people to show proof. Also they'll pay just enough to beat the other offer. Like if you have a offer with 150k base + a bunch of stock options they'll increase your base to 135 since with the 15% target bonus you'll be at 155 cash.

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ImportantStringOP•

How would you say HRT compares to JS in terms of interview content and difficulty? A lot of my cohort went through JS, DE Shaw, or Two Sigma but off the top of my head don’t know any who ended up with HRT. I know I need to brush up a bit on my probability and combinatorics, but I’ve been expecting that for a while.

That’s good to know about competing offers. I’ll definitely apply to a range of companies including plenty outside of this scope so I’ll try to time the cycles a bit.

1
123123-1•

I interviewed as software engineer at jane st and algo engineer at hrt.

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I thought jane street's interview question was rather... easy? I failed the phone interview though so you should take my thoughts with a grain of salt. This is despite finishing the problem in 30 mins when the interviewer stated it would take 30-45 mins to do. It didn't seem like an insane algo question. I interviewed as a swe intern back in school and they asked me to prove a hamiltonian path always exists in a tournament and then write code to find the path. This time it was a very reasonable code question in coderpad.

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With hrt I did two phone interviews. These were hard problems imo. The weird thing was we didn't write any code. Instead I just described a solution to the interviewer. I was asked a mix of probability questions, knowledge questions about c++, cpu cache, and data structures, and describe an algorithm or data structure to do something questions. I'd describe the knowledge questions as being similar to the kind you would see on an exam in a course. They seem simple on the surface but just reciting something you vaguely remember isn't enough. You'll be asked to describe in detail how they work. The describe a solution problems were challenging. I'm pretty good at leet code. Like I can look at a hard and figure out the approach on sight then code it up in 45 mins. With these problems my intuition failed, and I had to think deeply about the problem structure.

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frnkcnProp Trading Dev•

HRT was by far the hardest interview I’ve ever had.

Got a Jane Street one coming up though so maybe that’ll change. I’m not gonna lie though I find it pretty damn annoying I can land interviews at HRT/JS and but every single company on the west coast besides G won’t give me the time of day :|

Wanna give me a referral OP? :D

2