Source
r/poker•
Furples

Weird Etiquette Spot at 5/10

Discussion

I'm in the BB for this hand. The SB is an older local reg, probably a winner in the game and overall friendly guy (he's loaned me portable iphone chargers before). The BU is a whale down to his last $400. He's been losing some pots, tilting a little, but we've been chatting for the last 30 minutes about pizza places in my hometown (we found out that he used to live where I currently live out of state). Overall, the game has a very friendly vibe, unlike a lot of cut-throat 5/10 games.

The BU announces that he will be all-in blind next hand. It folds to the button, and sure enough he jams $400 without looking at his card. There was no discussion of this being a "flip". The SB, who clearly knows what's good for the game, says to him "I'll flip with you, I call blind".

I peel my cards instinctively right as the SB is calling blind and look at K9o (~40% equity vs 2 random hands). The SB has $800 behind, and the button is all-in. After I peel my cards, the button goes "hey, you can't look, that's not fair". I then realize that he must have thought that I was going to flip with them. I have a pretty easy +EV jam that is well within my rights to do so. The BU never requested that we flip with him, as he said he was going all-blind before the hand regardless. Also, the SB shouldn't reasonably expect me to either (1) flip with them or (2) just fold my BB without agreeing to anything. So this leaves me with 3 options:

  1. Jam
  2. Call (after which the SB and I would check it down 100% of the time)
  3. Fold, and just let the BU flip with the SB

Ethically, I think 1 and 2 are obviously perfectly fine, with option 2 being more forgiving to the SB (who, in a sense, has wrongfully put me in this position). If we jam and the SB folds, this is actually great for the whale obviously, but I think it might irk him that I'm interfering with their flip (especially if I win). If I call and win, the whale may get upset that I looked and then called, and consider this an "angle" (even though I never agreed to anything).

I elected to just fold, and figured it was best for "the spirit of the game" and keeping things friendly. Even though the SB is definitely in the wrong here by engaging a "flip" while I'm still in the hand without any agreement, I know that if I jam, it will instigate conflict and the mood at the table will go from friendly gambling to a more cutthroat environment. Calling and putting in $400 for 40% equity in a $1200 pot is only $80 in EV, which seems like an expensive risk in case the whale gets frustrated and leaves instead of gambling for longer or rebuys. If we jam, we win that $80 in EV from the main pot plus an additional ~$125 in EV from the sidepot if called.

If these were two whales from my local casino, i would have just folded without question, but in this case I felt like the situation was more complicated because I was not at my local casino, and this hand involved a whale and a local reg.

Thoughts / what would you do here? Not that it matters at all, but this bothered me mostly because i would have flopped 2 pair to beat 62o and 54o lol.

​

Posted Mar 13, 2019, 6:52 PM UTC · edited

3552
Touch_Of_Red•

Folding is the right play, mainly because you want to keep the game friendly, but also because I don't really trust a reg who says he didn't look at his cards and then flats a shove with people left behind.

An advanced play would be to table your hand and ask the whale if he wants you in or out. "I'm so sorry, I didn't realize you guys are flipping, here's my hand, if you want I'll call the 400 and check it down or I can just fold to not mess up your hand."

50
FurplesOP•

I'm not totally sure, but I think at this casino, tabling your hand multi-way kills it. I could say "hey I have K9o, I didn't realize you guys were flipping, do you want me to fold or call and check it down?" and then just pray the SB doesn't jam a brick flop (which I'm 99% sure this guy wouldn't do)

21
PortWine•

If you're talking TR then yeah tabling your hand kills it. But it depends on the floor. A few will let it go, give you a warning, but most are anal.

I like telling them what you have though. Good for table atmosphere.

3
FurplesOP•

Yeah it was TR. I think the play is just saying something like "hey, sorry guys, didn't realize you were flipping, I already looked and I have a better than average hand but it's not amazing. Can i call and check it down here?"

2
PortWine•

The more I think about it I think I just fold without saying anything.

If we say what we have and ask them what they want to do they'll just look at their cards and have you call when you're way behind, or fold when way ahead. They'll also slow the game down asking what exactly you have if you give them something vague. Then the rest of the table is annoyed.

3
AntiIntellectual•

"Get fucked boomer. ALL IN!"

41
FurplesOP•

He bought a house and put himself through college with 2 years of minimum-wage work in 1970, so it's only fair

24
[deleted]•

After living expenses that would be like half my tuition for one semester

2
Zix117Loosey Goosey•

This is pretty weird. I’d probably jam and argue with them the rest of the night if they had a problem, but in hindsight maybe I’m not the most fun player to have at the table

15
takeoveritsyours•

You don’t want to destroy a game for a tiny bit of EV. Folding is correct. If you’re tilted about losing your $10, and if table is friendly, you could respond with “ok fine - didn’t get what you guys were doing - I fold, but winner owes me $10” in a happy/funny manner.

If I were in same spot I’d laugh, play along, “fold and hold” and jokingly ask for $20 if my hand was winner. If they gave 20 I’d toss to dealer.

15
FurplesOP•

Nah I wasn’t remotely tilted about losing $10, just was curious if what I did was overly anti-confrontational. You sound like you’d be really fun to play with, and I wish more regs had similar attitudes

5
takeoveritsyours•

Ha, thanks man. I’m kind of blown away at some of the other responses that mucking K9 suited is some sort of travesty that makes you a sure loser if you’re willing to sacrifice that MASSIVE POTENTIAL EV!!!!!

It’s just a weird attitude to have. I’m picturing lots of hoodies, beats headphones, and snickering about ranges.

It would be another thing with a massive hand. If I had AA I’d shrug and be all “shit guys, sorry, didn’t know what you were doing, can’t fold” and then laugh my ass off when their J5 off breaks me. “I definitely had that coming”

5
wastelandXXL•

this. especially at 5/10. ainec.

all the other nits in here demanding justice for $10 are never getting out of their .25/.50 home games.

5
MrMiez•

I think it etiquette wise, its fine to call bc SB is out of line. still wouldnt do it myself, bc id hope whale doubles up or rebuys big, and I think thats worth more then your EV from calling with K9o.

10
huarache_lights•

This is exactly why I only flip when I'm in the BB. I explain to the table that me and the other player are going to flip, but if anyone does anything fucky like limp, I'm looking at my cards. You were well within your rights to call, but you'd for sure get some angry people at the table.

Also, this would be a lot more interesting of a spot if you looked down at a premium (KQs+).

3
Jascarn•

I'm more interested in what you would have done if you woke up with a super premium hand..

2
JanMichaelVincent83•

Hes not a local there. Hes 100% ripping it in. Just like everyone one of us would do.

2
scottatu•

I would jam AA even if my grandma and mom were flipping.

1
NotRafaelNadal•

I would have told him I am not folding blind, as that makes me give up $10, and I'm not calling blind, because I don't want to randomly risk my money. They can pay me $5 each if they want to buy off my blind fold, though. That way, you skip your big blind, and they get to flip for fun. If they don't agree to that, just look at your cards and ship it in if you have the right equity.

2
Ozqo•

Jamming is best. You don't destroy the game by playing correctly. You can do it without destroying the game if you have any amount of charisma.

2
cactuscoolerdGGPLO Reg•

FOLD. The ev in the future is worth a lot more than the potential 400 right now

1
ObamaCareBears•

Folding here is absurd imo, unless they at the very least spot you your $10 big blind back.

I would rip it in if I didn't care about what these people think of me, but just call and check it down if I cared about not pissing them off. But if they get mad at you for doing stupid shit blind with no prior agreement with you behind then they only have themselves to blame.

1†
AUTOREPLYBOT31•

I don't see any ethical dilemma here. The SB is in the wrong and your either folding or flatting is obviously in his best interest. I'm assuming you were 100% sure he didn't see his cards to be considering obviously. Anyways, his mistake, you can play your cards as you see fit.

As for me, I'd fold K9 and hope for the whale to double up and donate later. Anything premium though I'd be jamming and SB can rant all he likes, especially as this is out of state. I'd only be considering how the table mood would effect me short term.

1
thenerok•

Something tells me that if you'd jam it they wouldn't look at your cards and go "Screw you!, you were not supposed to peek at your cards, now you know you have enough equity versus our ATC range to get it in profitably".

1
LivingInThePast69•

If you're not a local, rip it in. What's the gain here? Keep the game friendly for another couple of hours, maybe? Not worth it, IMO. For all you know, they won't even care.

​

With locals, yeah, just fold and say "you guys go ahead and flip, sorry, didn't realize what you were doing." Fold face up if you want, so they see you legit didn't get the situation (and didn't just try to angle but peeled 32o.)

1
igivefreetickles•

Fold. But don't listen to me because I'm broke and a huge pussy.

1
whodatdan0•

"You guys are flipping??? I didn't notice....ok....I call.....check it down?"

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
FurplesOP•

Not that it matters at all, but this bothered me mostly because i would have flopped 2 pair

you're results oriented, it's irrelevant that you would've made 2 pair

I literally started that sentence with the fact that it's irrelevant, I'm not sure what your point is here.

Really what are you asking?

I'm curious what you think the etiquette should be here?

​

7
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
FurplesOP•

I think you're over-analyzing this. I experienced a situation and thought "yikes, I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do here etiquette-wise", so I decided to see what other think. It's really not that deep, and I don't really see a reason for this thread to get combative. My last comment in the OP is tongue-in-cheek, but obviously folding when you would have scooped is naturally more painful than folding when you would have lost.

All 3 are legal (not angles) but 3 might be seen as a dick move. Is that what you want to hear? Is this not obvious?

This wasn't obvious. I'm also curious if other people would opt out of something that seems like a dick move even though technically speaking it's not unethical.

So many questions. Also please answer my questions in the first comment. It's for you. It will help you

The only question I didn't answer was the one below that seemed rhetorical.

What does it matter if it's technically not an angle but the whole table thinks it is and it ruins your night? It doesn't.

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any other questions in the first comment. Only one other sentence has a question mark, and that's the one that I responded to. Sorry if I'm missing something.

You said "you peeled your hand instinctively". What does this mean though? Were you not aware of what was going on?

I don't always wait until the action is on me before peeling my cards. So in this case, I peeled my cards while the SB was acting. I was aware of what was going on, but I didn't really see this as a flip situation so I didn't see any issue with looking. But as I was looking, the SB mentioned flipping which would imply that I shouldn't be looking.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
constantbabble•

Overall, the game has a very friendly vibe, unlike a lot of cut-throat 5/10 games.

And you can't figure out if you should remain friendly with the friendly reg SB and the friendly whale of the game by sacrificing $80 in EV. You should stick with cut-throat games without whales.

-1
FurplesOP•

Purely tactically speaking, it's ~$205 in EV, and near the end of one of my last sessions in a state I may never visit again. And while I did fold to keep things friendly, I was having second thoughts just being the SB seems to be out of line here by putting me in this spot.

7
OutrageousReply•

Classic r/poker response. "If you want the game to stay profitable, turn yourself into one of the donators."

-2
I_Am_Jacks_Scrotum•

If you can't understand that giving up $80 in EV is worth keeping this guy at the table, then I'm really not sure what to tell you.

2
OutrageousReply•

Tell me anything you want from your 1/2 seat. I love it when the peanut gallery thinks their opinion is valuable.

-5
I_Am_Jacks_Scrotum•

I'm sure you're just crushing it at $2/5 bro. You must be so proud of yourself.

Let me ask you this: What is higher EV, keeping a whale happy and at your table, or watching him leave?

3
constantbabble•

Another seat for the cut-throat game! Myself, I'll sit right here and buy the donating whale another drink.

-2
OutrageousReply•

Nobody wants to take away your right to give away whatever profits you might have made at this game, but some of us want to win.

0
constantbabble•

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/51e3bf1a-b4c5-45a2-a5aa-fc97c55ae0e9

0
TooInspired•

I mean, in a foreign place, isn’t the etiquette always “just do what the regs do?” Lol

-1
OutrageousReply•

They're the ones ruining the friendly environment by flipping over your $10 without your permission. So fuck em. You play in soft friendly games to make bigger profits. If you're going to throw those profits away, then what's the difference of playing in a friendly game vs a cut-throat one?

-1
takeoveritsyours•

Dude. Flipping for $400 is NOT ruining a friendly environment. That’s the atmosphere you WANT at a table. It’s one big blind. Chill.

4
OutrageousReply•

Flipping for $400 is NOT ruining a friendly environment.

Doing it without the permission of the table, especially when the blinds aren't the ones doing it, absolutely is.

It’s one big blind. Chill.

People who say this are losing players 100% of the time. This is a game of tiny edges and volume.

0
takeoveritsyours•

I agree with the “without permission” part, but OPs description of circumstance didn’t strike me as particularly antagonistic or confrontational. I am also assuming (and to be fair, it IS an assumption albeit based on lots and lots of experience) that the two guys flipping for $400 were not intentionally trying to take advantage of his “dead” $10. They just sound like players that got carried away. Shit happens. That’s all.

I’m thinking of it more like I would when a person unintentionally raises out of turn. IF it was a planned maneuver - it’s gross, but if not - shrug shoulders and say “don’t do that again.”

It sounds like whale announced, SB spontaneously decided to play along, and they both just just sort of forgot the BB might wanna play. I’d bet that had SB NOT decided to come along - whale was never gonna say a word at BB wanting to look at his cards.

5
Tobogganbutt•

you want to keep the easy money at the table. if you make it so the whales enjoy their time even when they lose, they'll come back and sit with you

2
OutrageousReply•

The whales wouldn't enjoy you doing flips on their big blind without asking them, would they? Stop acting like some people are above the rules.

-1
I_Am_Jacks_Scrotum•

Username is relevant.

1