Source
r/ffxiv•
preprose

[Spoiler] Elidibus' stance in 4.56

Spoiler[Lore]

We all know Elidibus is all about the balance, on the Source and the Shards. He is fighting us because he wants to push back the Light on the Source, but we shouldn't forget it was also him that herded the Warrior of Darkness' from the First all the way to the Source and mislead them to wreak havoc to force Hydealyn's hand so that she would strive to pull back the Light before it consumes the Shard and prevents the rejoining.

The fact that he realizes that we are being called, doesn't stop to inquire and stays firm on his decision in killing us, is baffling. Quite unlike the Elidibus we have been presented with so far, the manipulative behind the scene villain who deliberates every decision and plans everything ahead. Since if we are being called to the First, for him it means we are there to finally clear up the mess and take care of the light flood, which is what he wanted and is purely beneficial to his Grand schemes. Upon that realization he should have retreated from the fight, and then clashed in opinion with Solus or Varis who cannot understand the huge advantage in letting us do the dirty job. Instead we get him giving the side look to Varis while he gets swept up in petty court gossip about him possessing Zenos's body.

Elidibus 'was' a interesting character, who had agendas that made him stand apart from his Ascian fellows, but now he is being reduced to someone at the whims of Varis, Solus, and the Garlean internal politics as whole, when we believed that he would be the one to pilot the garlean threat instead. You would think he was above that. Needless to say, his role has been luckluster in this expansion, and the patch was the final nail.

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Edit: Many are misunderstanding my point so I will try to put it another way;

tl;dr; Let's try to remove all subjective theories, perceptions on what Elidibus's actual endgoal is, etc. We know he is about balance or whatever his idea of it is, and he was personally involved in whatever plans he had for the First, be it stopping the flood or rejoining it, the fact that story wise the writers have decided to completely detach him from what was previously a plot he was involved in while he was right infront of us and leave him in the mess of the Garlean politics is a weird choice that does the story a disservice. That's all I was trying to say.

Just gonna leave this here as well.

Posted Mar 26, 2019, 11:24 AM UTC · edited

051
LtnSkyRocketsWHM•

I think you are assigning to much player knowledge to Elidibus.

Elidibus sees us a threat to balance because the light keeps winning. We are Hydaelyns pawn in his view, and he has no reason to believe that w would ever turn or back on Hydaelyn or change the path we are on.

Ie - he does not know that we are going to become a warrior of darkness.

So he had to remove us as a threat to balance.
He recognises we are being called, but he doesn't know who or why, nor does he care. Why would he care? He has no reason to think us being called would change our path.

He sent the WOD in order for the first to be rejoined. We screwed that up for him. We prevented the rejoining. The first wasn't rejoined. He probably has no idea that we sent minfillia off to try sort it out.

So from where he stands - all we do is get in the way and create imbalance. So we gotta go.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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preproseOPBRD•

He probably has no idea that we sent minfillia off to try sort it out.

He knows.

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ankahsilverAna•

he does not know that we are going to become a warrior of darkness.

This bugs me because like. If he really WAS so up about balance, why didn't he just become the Shadowbringer himself and fix the First? He sent the WoD to kill us and remove us from the picture to revive Zodiark with a calamity caused by our passing.

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brain_fucklerNinja•

He doesn't want too fix the First, he wants the first rejoined into the Source. That's why he sent the WoD to kill us and cause a calamity before the First was completely blotted out and useless like the Void.

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ankahsilverAna•

I mean yeah. That's the point. He only cares about balance as far as "it doesn't become a void of whatever." He doesn't actually care if the light and dark are balanced, just that Zodiark can get his. People just see "balance" and assume he has the same view of balance as us, when it's literally just. "Gotta make sure my god has all he wants"

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LtnSkyRocketsWHM•

Why haven't any of them done things directly themselves? Instead they always scheme from the background instead. It's just the way they are and the way they do things.

If they did things directly themselves, we'd be playing a different game.

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ankahsilverAna•

I mean, Lahabrea was a lot more direct, keep in mind. But they direct people, too, because it's easier to get a catastrophic war going by being in the background and playing sides against each other.

My point is, if he was so concerned about losing the Shard to a Flood of Light and not how he could use this to his advantage, he sure as fuck could have fixed it himself. Instead he took it as an opportunity to trigger the Final Calamity, which he failed at.

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LtnSkyRocketsWHM•

He doesnt want it fixed. He wants it rejoined. He doesn't want a flood of light, only because he cant rejoin a flood of light shard.

So him taking it as an opportunity to trigger a calamity is exactly within his plan for a rejoining. Trigger a calamity, get a rejoining, free zodiark.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

That isn't exactly true. They do take direct action where they can. He is taking direct action now to try and ensure the Rejoining of the First before it is too late.

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CetonisSana Cetonis on Mateus•

Arbert and friends beat the Ascians on the First. They won, Ascians lost. Light is too strong there. Elidibus could head over, but being not of that shard he'd have some limitations apparently, and there's no indication that he's extra powerful or anything, just different in some yet to be clarified way.

It's not a matter of the Ascians not being willing to just go over and stop the flood. It's that they can't. From their perspective it's not possible.

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ankahsilverAna•

Elidibus is a special case, tho, and this has been established. It's why he wears a different cloak. He's a higher rank, being to Zodiark what Minfillia is to Hydaelyn.

I mean, you say they can't but it's more that... I don't think they care honestly.

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preproseOPBRD•

He sent the WoD to kill us

Then why didnt they kill us the time they caught us in Xelphatol all alone with Alphinaud? On the contrary he mentioned that unnecessary bloodshed will upset the 'man in white'.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

Yes, I believe that was Urianger's own doing.

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CetonisSana Cetonis on Mateus•

You're a bit mistaken, Elidibus was not trying to stop the flood of light on the First. He was using the WoD in his efforts to work towards a calamity on the Source, telling them that would rejoin the First*.

If he calculates that killing you will help usher in such a calamity, then that's a much better plan, from his perspective, than screwing around with trying to see if the flood of light can actually be stopped. Since after all, the Ascians would have done that already if they could.

Darkness is too weak on that world, and to guess in the moment that our calling was exactly "WoL is getting called to the First to become a WoD and they're going to successfully stop the flood" would be incredibly clairvoyant, to say the least. I see no reason why Elidibus should behave as though he were watching the JP Fanfest keynote.

*In theory, he could have been planning to actually rejoin some other shard; we do not exactly know if or how much Elidibus minds flooded shards. While we've been told they aren't "useful" to Ascians, we don't know what that means - obviously they don't need 13/13, or it'd be game over for them already, and perhaps the difference in Elidibus' role is related to this.

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preproseOPBRD•

You're a bit mistaken, Elidibus was not trying to stop the flood of light on the First. He was using the WoD in his efforts to work towards a calamity on the Source, telling them that would rejoin the First*.

No, that's what he told the WoD to mislead them, not his actual plan. You can't rejoin a shard that's tilted too much towards light. If causing a calamity was his plan, Hydaelyn could have absorbed any of the other 4 still remaining shards, there was no reason to believe she would absorb the First, and by that time it would have been completely flooded with no hope of ever rejoining it again even in the future. Or if his plan was to let her absord any shard, getting 5 desparate souls from another shard doesn't sound that effective.

I would have to rewatch the scenes again, but I'm pretty sure Elidibus and Urianger deliberately planned together to make happen what has happened, which is sending Minfilia to the first to restore the balance. He knows what has happened.

If he calculates that killing you will help usher in such a calamity, then that's a much better plan, from his perspective, than screwing around with trying to see if the flood of light can actually be stopped. Since after all, the Ascians would have done that already if they could.

He is not trying to kill us to cause a calamity, but because we are the reason the Source is tilting towards the Light. Again he is all about balance, and he even say so before fighting us.

"Equilibrium must be restored... And only your death will redress the balance."

I see Elidibus as a scholar, not a fighter. His first instinct should be to analyse the situation before him, not to land a killing blow on a situation he doesnt have all intel on. Atleast that's how I see it, and believe it would have made a better story and cliffhanger.

*It's true we don't know how many shards do they actually need to rejoin, true, but I dont think loosing them doesn't set back their ultimate goal by a whole lot. I wouldn't be surprised if he hasnt been trying to find a way to restore the Void in someway as well.

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CetonisSana Cetonis on Mateus•

Elidibus was 100% not in on the plan to send Minfilia to the First. He was having the WoD run around killing primals to weaken Hydaelyn. The plot to bring the WoD to you and make an offering of crystals and all that was Urianger's plan alone. He brought up the kill-WoL option to Arbert when he was in a fit of impatience with Elidibus' methods.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

It's possible Elidibus doesn't even know that Hydaelyn could do such a thing. He certainly could not rely on her to do it, but the Ascians are operating in the "dark" when it comes to at least some aspects of the two Crystals as much as we are, by the look of things. That there one is dormant may limit how much knowledge they have of the true extent of their powers.

Nonetheless, I think by this point it's suggesting she hasn't succeeded much in it, as the Ascians would notice a measurable reduction in the flood risk on the First. That, though, will probably tie into 5.0's plotlines and the "why" behind Minfillia being whisked away from Eulmore.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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preproseOPBRD•

I'm rewatching all the 3.4 cutscenes to confirm but I still believe Elidubus played both Urianger and the WoD like a fiddle, and whatever they planned to do and the outcome in the end was forseen by him. He involved Urianger because he knew his course of action, otherwise what was the point if he already had the WoD to wreck chaos? But maybe I'm putting too much stock into Elidibus.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

There is also the possibility that he surmised that you may potentially be communing with Hydaelyn and so he sought to cut it short, fast. Although you'd expect an Ascian to be able to sense such a thing and be able to rule it out? Yet perhaps not. The WoL cannot sense their presence easily, either, as Thancred demonstrated.

And though he is analytical in his approach, he doesn't seem to shy away from battling when his cause requires it.

The scene just came across as a bit more forced than usual, and again, I put it down to time constraints.

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preproseOPBRD•

There is also the possibility that he surmised that you may potentially be communing with Hydaelyn and so he sought to cut it short, fast.

Good point. Though there is also the fact the EleZenos seemed to have far more insight to what is happening to us and he wasn't even near us unlike Elidibus when that happened. So who knows at this point.

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Rua-YukiRua'a Yuuki (Gungnir)•

Elidibus stood out to me as strange too. There's something going on here that we don't understand as players yet, and the WoL definitely does not understand. Remember, even though he has kept his eye on us, the WoL has not seen him since we chased him out of the Waking Sands in 2.1.

I was mad he was the one fighting us, I had assumed EleZenos got his bod back. I may be projecting my favoritism onto him. But I love him as an antagonist and don't want to see him this way. I want to say his hand is forced, but I don't exactly know if I am looking at this objectively.

Elidibus also was mad Solus was missing. I can see a chess player like Elidibus becoming furious because all his pieces are not behaving like he wants. Archbishop. Warriors of Darkness. Unukalhai. Ilberd. They all did what they were meant to do. We're too much of a Wild Card, and even though he invited him in Solus is also not staying in line.

I'm hoping Elidibus will stop with wanting us dead soon after he sees what is happening on the First. We'll see. I'm glad he's got a much more active roll now though because I do stan.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

Yeah, it's a bit puzzling. Meanwhile, Varis appears to be possessed by Solus - this is likely because of how the cutscene shifts to that insane expression and due to his love for theatre. and also because he specifically regurgitates the answer he gave to Varis concerning what he was going to go do. What's odd here is that Ascians can conceal themselves even from each other. He revels in chaos. I'm hoping they expand/improve on Elidibus's role bit and bring him back in line with what it's been thus far. This is more Lahabrea without all the passion. It's also curious that he kept remarking on the host as a test subject, so there must be something special to Zenos's body, perhaps by virtue of the Resonance, affecting both his soul and his body, perhaps due to something else.

I'm putting it down to the fact that perhaps they didn't have the time to do much more for this patch. I expect we will see more out of him in 5.0.

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preproseOPBRD•

This is more Lahabrea without all the passion.

This is pretty poignant. Also Elidbus is like a better son to Varis then Zenos was, less on the crazy side.

I'm not too fond of the possession theory, I actually expected him to stop the Black Rose production there for a sec. That effect really reminded me of the aftermath of Thordan fight, and there it all came down to perception and exaggeration rather then something more concrete like people liked to speculate. Also I assume that possession can't happen on strong willed minds, but I don't believe that's something that has been discussed in game yet.

When Varis says Solus is concealing himself, I don't think he meant literally. More like he stays out of Elidibus's reach so that he can continue doing his own evil things without Eli's intervention (or mom nagging more like).

I think I missed where he speaks about Zenos's body as a test subject, when was that?

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

I'm referring to the lines he used during the battle, about the host. He seemed like he had been given a new toy, and he was using a mixture of some of the typical Overlord powers along with Zenos's. Could all come down to the Resonance's effect on the body.

I'm not too fond of the possession theory, I actually expected him to stop the Black Rose production there for a sec. That effect really reminded me of the aftermath of Thordan fight, and there it all came down to perception and exaggeration rather then something more concrete like people liked to speculate. Also I assume that possession can't happen on strong willed minds, but I don't believe that's something that has been discussed in game yet.

I don't believe there's any real limitation as to whom they can possess. Maybe not someone with a strong Echo or shielded by the Blessing of Light, but beyond that, it seems carte blanche. After all, there is no doubt that the original Solus was a strong-willed man. I'm also going off the rather odd scenes in the tent with Varis, e.g. the flickering lights with black moths drawn to it, and the very severe about-shift in his mentality. Solus even remarks that his grandson was never good at hiding his true feelings.

When Varis says Solus is concealing himself, I don't think he meant literally. More like he stays out of Elidibus's reach so that he can continue doing his own evil things without Eli's intervention (or mom nagging more like).

And this is where that could fit into all this.

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preproseOPBRD•

Oh I havent paid attention to his dialogue during the trial, makes sense. I will have to look into that again.

I have just remember how the ordeal of Thancred's possession by Lahabrea went down. Thancred told us that he went through a period where he was heavily doubting himself, considering himself to be useless and a burden to the scions etc which lead him to overwoking and putting his guard down and thus ending up getting possessed. I doubt Varis puts his guard at any moment sandwiched between two Ascians as he is. I doubt he even sleeps at this point.

But it is just speculation and not concrete facts so we will have to find out what will happen I guess!

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ankahsilverAna•

I'm going to be honest, the problem is people took him at his word instead of questioning what his idea of balance is. They assume he has their idea of balance instead of, you know, still being an Ascian who serves Zodiark whose very idea of balance is skewed to hell and back.

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preproseOPBRD•

His idea of balance is the balance between light and dark, because that's the only way the shards can be rejoined. If they tilt too much on either side, they cannot, and if they tilt all the way, there is no saving the shard in question, which is what happened to the thirteenth/ the Void, and why Igeyorm was turned into Lahabrea's lapdog for failing her mission. And by rejoining all the shards is what will lead to Zodiark's liberation, which is obviously their and his ultimate goal. It's actually pretty clear cut as far intentions go.

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ankahsilverAna•

That doesn't mean his idea of balance can't be skewed. There's so many iterations of "balance of light and dark."

Like. I'm going to cite Xehanort of Kingdom Hearts. He thought Light was too strong, so he decided to literally remake the world as he saw fit because it Was Wrong.

His very idea of balance was skewed. There's not just one way to view light/dark balance. Like, I know his intentions. That doesn't mean he has a good idea as to balance considering he's still an Ascian serving the dark god Zodiark. He's literally in a group united by the idea of reviving Zodiark and that it's the way things should be, omnicide be damned. Kinda like how the Scions are all united by the idea of protecting Eorzea. Funny how that works. (Also, Igeyorm was subservient because Lahabrea was from the Source himself so it was His Shard. He had rank over her there.)

With how we know we're going to the First, if he REALLY cared about the Flood, why didn't he just fix things there instead of use the WoD to try and kill us? Because his idea of balance is that skewed. If we die, he sees this as the chance to revive Zodiark, so the shards won't matter much once Zodiark is back because if they aren't already gone they'll just be absorbed back into him by default.

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preproseOPBRD•

His balance is not a philosophical one though. It's physical and can be proven (well metaphysical but still). And that's why it's his niche, he is the Emissary, he knows what's at stake, unlike all the other Ascians who just scream 'Darkness' just like Xehanort and that's about it.

That said Xehanort is a badly written character so that comparison only makes the xiv story telling look bad as well.

With how we know we're going to the First, if he REALLY cared about the Flood, why didn't he just fix things there instead of use the WoD to try and kill us?

Because he can't. No Ascian can. The light there is overwhelming, and they don't have any tools like the Garlean Empire or the Primals of the beast tribes to pave a way for darkness. Which is why Elidibus resorted to "ally" himself with proponents from the "light side", like the Warriors from the First shard, like Urianger. And now we are going to become a tool as well.

He wants to revive Zodiark. Balance is beneficial for reviving him. Balance is what he must attain. It's really not that hard to understand.

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ankahsilverAna•

The Ascians sure can tip it into pure darkness, but can't put in enough darkness to stop a Flood? Sounds fake, honestly.

Look. You heard him say balance and you thought he was a good guy. But he isn't. He only cares about balance insofar as it benefits Zodiark. That's it. That's all it's ever been. He was manipulating the WoD and that was apparent even back then. He saw a chance to kill us and bring back Zodiark because we're one Calamity away from Hydaelyn dying and Zodiark being freed. And he figures out death will be enough.

That is all his idea of balance has been, you just applied your idea of balance to his and assumed they were the same thing. And yes, this has been proven by his words and actions for a long, long time. (See: if he cared to stop the Flood, why didn't he try to actually recruit us back then to stop it for him instead of just using the WoD to kill us and Hydaelyn faster because that's literally what he was having them do).

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theincubuslordI'm a lover and a fighter•

ELIDIBUS GOT A STANCE?!?!

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MelodiesOfLoruleSCH•

If killing half of the world population means the world is "balanced," then he'll kill them so the world is balanced.

So long as a world doesn't go too far into light or darkness and becomes a void, he's happy. He just needs the world to be usable to resurrect his master. Asides from that? He's just as two-dimensional as his ascian buddies. He doesn't intend to work with the WoL or look for a better solution. Having the imperial armies march on and slaughter everything work, so why'd he bother?

He's not a good person. Never was. And certainly not a compelling villain.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

He's not a good person. Never was. And certainly not a compelling villain.

Let's wait till 5.0 to see how it all goes, eh?

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MelodiesOfLoruleSCH•

He's been introduced in the game what, five years ago?

It's so tiring that whenever the ascians or Edilibius are brought up, the answer is "we don't know yet, let's wait." Look, if after five years your villain still sucks; there's an issue.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

TBH I think the biggest anti-climax here was that Elidibus didn't even fill you in on why he was just going to fight you. Fair enough, he's an Ascian, and we know their aims, but in the past he's at least explained his actions and what's happening. We didn't even get an explanation of why things are so urgent from the Ascian perspective. The possible reason here is that doing that would entail too many spoilers, about how effective Minfillia was at salvaging matters on the First (probably, not very), it was just a "right, time to die" type scenario. Even Nabriales and Lahabrea didn't rush into things without any build-up that fast.

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preproseOPBRD•

Yeah pretty much. Their desire to keep important story details under the wraps at all costs to 'surprise' us later makes the narrative and it's pacing suffer a lot. I would much prefer the story flows more naturally, we learn what we learn when it's appropriate, instead of this constant with holding of information that doesn't even surprise us anymore when we finally get there.

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

Also, I recall the phrase he used now: "Then let us test the limits of this Garlean vessel."

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TheOperator3712•

He did tell you in the fight dialogue though. "To redress the balance-to ensure the salavation of this star-you must fall!"-Zenos Yae Galvus Patch 4.56

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Bestbuddyelidibus•

I'm aware. But that was it, the grand sum total of it and no real explanation of how things had gotten to that point. The character is not yet aware of the Source being at any risk of a flood and Elidibus has no reason to think he is aware of it yet. The mysterious voice only makes cryptic references to "twin dooms". This was a lot less curt than the usual Elidibus.

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