Source
r/Amd•
Fanu12

Latest AMD microcodes come with higher latencies and game performance regression according to tests done by 1usmus

Benchmark

So, 1usmus (dude who made Ryzen DRAM Calc tool) made some tests over at OCN forums, and according to him:

1.0.0.4с - 128.7 ns

0.0.7.0 - 144 ns

0.0.7.2 - 147 ns

I see only deterioration on the last two microcodes, at the moment bios with microcodes 0.0.7.0 and 0.0.7.2 is the worst that exists

he is testing on stock cpu (1700X) and memory 2133MHz

he proceeded to test AC Odyssey on X370 Crosshair VI Hero:

6401 - 136fps avg

https://i.imgur.com/Ra9vFGe.jpg

6903 - 129fps avg

https://i.imgur.com/GsrNNRj.jpg

at the moment all new bios have this problem, Asus is not to blame

so if you've got a new BIOS release for your motherboard (no matter the maker/model) do some testing to see if you get performance regression

btw these are Inter-core latencies

sources:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/11-amd-motherboards/1624603-rog-crosshair-vi-overclocking-thread-1006.html#post27918512

https://www.overclock.net/forum/11-amd-motherboards/1624603-rog-crosshair-vi-overclocking-thread-1006.html#post27920084

edited with sources to 1usmuses posts

Posted Apr 3, 2019, 12:30 PM UTC · edited

14480
excalibur_zdRyzen 1600 / GTX 1060 6GB / 16 GB DDR4 3200Mhz B-die RAM•

Folks, the key information is right there in the version number:

0.0.7.2

0.0. indicating this is still a beta (or even alpha) version of an AGESA that supports Matisse. If you ask me, motherboard vendors should have simply ignored it (or just use it internally) until a stable version comes out.

80
xrailgun•

Thank you for explaining that. I was just wondering if AMD went full USB IF on their versioning system...

17
HifihedgehogR7 [email protected] | 1080 Ti | Strix X470-I | 16GB 3533MHz Cl14•

They may have released it for companies who are receiving engineering samples and are optimizing for Zen 2. In other words, game development houses, render farms, etc.

10
ET3D2200G + 8GB, 1090T + 16GB + 5750, G4560 + RX 460•

That's a great way to later claim that the I/O die is doing a much better job.

30
Ati-Jay•

Perhaps it's because of the io die. Maybe a new methodology that works better on an upcoming system, but regresses current performance, and amd just missed it?

21
ObviouslyTriggered•

Zen, Zen+ and Zen2 don't share the same microcode in fact even APUs and CPUs from the same "generation" don't share the same microcode.

This is an intentional change for existing CPUs likely to improve stability or possibly to patch some errata.

17
Ati-Jay•

Not microcode. Best practices. But you could be right.

0
HifihedgehogR7 [email protected] | 1080 Ti | Strix X470-I | 16GB 3533MHz Cl14•

That's a great way to misconstrue an Intel-like approach is developing when, in reality, the version number is a dead giveaway this is a pre-release microcode that is bound to have bugs to iron out.

11
ET3D2200G + 8GB, 1090T + 16GB + 5750, G4560 + RX 460•

Yeah, but sarcasm aside (I wasn't serious), if that's just a pre-release microcode, what is it doing in release BIOSes from all major mobo makers?

10
HifihedgehogR7 [email protected] | 1080 Ti | Strix X470-I | 16GB 3533MHz Cl14•

Haha. There are already people who are test driving Zen 2 engineering samples and who need this for their systems. For example, game companies and render farms could be likely candidates.

3
ET3D2200G + 8GB, 1090T + 16GB + 5750, G4560 + RX 460•

And you're aware that these people can get BIOS updates without them being publicly released on mobo maker sites. They're not even marked as beta.

9
Caemyr•

You are aware that they do not recommend updating bios to AGESA which is for newer CPU generation?

1
st0nehR7 1800x, GTX 1080Ti, All the RGB•

They don't?

Then why are they releasing them with zero warning? And why do newer BIOS releases come with fixes and improvements for older CPUs?

9
Caemyr•

Yeah, it sucks, this was at least noted on ASRock support forum.

2
st0nehR7 1800x, GTX 1080Ti, All the RGB•

I only remember seeing anything remotely similar when it was suggested not to update cheaper boards because they didn't have enough ROM space to hold all the microcodes.

3
SandboChangAMD//1950X+Vega FEx2+RVII//2700X+Vega 56 Nano•

This should be sticky to warn people not to update the BIOS yet. Though the regression is ~ 5% only, it's undoing the overclocking many people tried so hard to work on.

18
BlasdeakiRyzen 1700 4GHz|Gigabyte AB350N iTX|GTX 1070|16 GB DDR4-3060•

You state these are " Inter-core latencies ": i presume (seeing this article from Tom's Hardware) they are cross-CCX latencies, right?

15
d2_ricci[email protected] | AMD VII•

Yep. Intercore means from core to core. Think an interstate highway.

3
BlasdeakiRyzen 1700 4GHz|Gigabyte AB350N iTX|GTX 1070|16 GB DDR4-3060•

The thing is that latencies are very different inside a Zen system, depending on which cores are communicating. A Zen die contains 2 CCXs (Core Complexes), each CCX contains 4 cores: latencies are very different when 2 cores inside the same CCX try to communicate with each other, than when the cores are in different CCXs (and, for Epyc or TR, even more so when cores in different dies try to communicate). Just check the link i pasted, you'll see it's quite more complicated than "interstate highways".

1
senniha1994AMD 2600x,taichi x370,gtx 1080,dell s2719dgf•

The point for zen,zen+ users is the we have reduced performance. Avoid it.

1
T1beriu•

Please post the source link.

15
Fanu12OPAMD 2700X | 1080Ti•

https://www.overclock.net/forum/11-amd-motherboards/1624603-rog-crosshair-vi-overclocking-thread-1006.html

13
T1beriu•

I think you posted the wrong link. There's no 1usmus's comment on that page.

10
MarDeci5 750 - Nitro+ RX 480 - 16GB DDR3•

go to the end of the thread, for me that page is from 2017, I'm gona guess there are forum settings on how many posts are shown per page and for him the page 1006 is the recent one... (for me it's like 4000 something)

edit heres permalink for the post with latencies (hope it works :D) https://www.overclock.net/forum/11-amd-motherboards/1624603-rog-crosshair-vi-overclocking-thread-4021.html#post27918512

13
badcookiesi7 3770k @ 4.7 | Vega⁵⁶ | Acer XR341CK 3440x1440 @ 75hz•

That's why mega threads are so terrible.. impossible for new people on the forum to find anything in thousands of pages

17
Fanu12OPAMD 2700X | 1080Ti•

go to the end of the thread, for me that page is from 2017, I'm gona guess there are forum settings on how many posts are shown per page and for him the page 1006 is the recent one... (for me it's like 4000 something)

yes, thats exactly it

7
Fanu12OPAMD 2700X | 1080Ti•

https://www.overclock.net/forum/11-amd-motherboards/1624603-rog-crosshair-vi-overclocking-thread-1006.html#post27920084

2
Yvese2700X , ASUS C6H, 16GB 3200 VLL C14 Flare X, GTX 1080 Ti•

This needs to be the top post on this subreddit. Very serious issue that needs to be looked at by AMD. I'm glad I haven't updated from the 6201 Crosshair VI bios. Was always worried updating would screw up memory stability since I run very low subtimings. Glad I held off.

12
-WallyWest-TR 2950X + RTX 2080 + Heatkiller <3•

Since when a beta update is a "very serious issue"?

11
RCFProdRyzen 5 2600 | RX 480•

Because it is being pushed out to manufacturers like It's a stable AGESA bios. That's really dumb. I am dissapointed I have installed the latest BIOS update.

16
[deleted]•

I think it's more the manufacturers releasing the BIOSes without mentioning that they include beta versions of the microcode.

The 0.0 version number tells the manufacturers that it's indeed a beta.

2
Fanu12OPAMD 2700X | 1080Ti•

its an issue if its being pushed out by all the major mobo makers as part of their official bios releases

people not in the know will update and then wonder why they get lower framerates & stutters in games (again, this needs to be tested further for verification on larger sample)

4
bootgras1800x 4ghz / Vega FE | 8700k 5ghz / MSI Gaming X Trio 2080Ti•

Dude, its a 2 year old motherboard. There isn't a reason to just keep updating your BIOS.

Update it if you actually need the new CPU support (which you presumably don't since the CPU is not out).

3
latemodel24r7 1700/16gb 2933/hd 6950•

Glad I didnt update mine either, although I run my 1700 at stock.

2
ButItMightJustWork•

What if these regressions are due to some security vulnerability patches for vulns similar to spectre/meltdown/and so on?

4
FUSCN8A•

Zing!

2
dasunsrule321800x@4GHz|32GB@3200Mhz|Vega64|1080ti•

Heh, they broke r/vfio as well.

3
rilgebat•

Just FYI people, 1usmus is not a trustworthy source at all.

Numerous times in the past has he made various wild and conspiratorial claims in the C6H thread, only for those claims to be debunked by Elmor or others.

Do your own testing, he's probably managed to screw something up messing with things he doesn't understand.

3†
cellardoor240R5 2600 | 8GB 3000 | GTX 1070•

I can confirm that 0070 on my Asus b450-F has a drop in latency and performance with the exact same memory settings and cpu OC.

Also - there is memory instability, that is why Asus is rushing out 0072 updates.(have not made one for the b450-f yet)

Finally, the new bios does NOT allow to downgrade back to 1.0.04c - which fricking sucks.

9
splerduE5-2690 | Holding out on CPU upgrades till DDR5!•

Finally, the new bios does NOT allow to downgrade back to 1.0.04c - which fricking sucks.

AFAIK it's just the vendor-provided BIOS update tools that do version checking and disalllow rollbacks. There's a tool from the BIOS maker itself that will allow you to patch in any BIOS version you want.

https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?99490-Flash-any-most-Asus-motherboard-Bios-in-DOS-with-USB-tutorial-Intel-AMD-roll-back/

I ran into the same problem with Intel/Gigabyte where GB's tools would not allow downgrade, but Intel's flasher worked.

3
cellardoor240R5 2600 | 8GB 3000 | GTX 1070•

Thanks - I'm aware of this utility but didn't know that an Intel flash utility would work with an AMD board - have you used it with a Ryzen setup?

1
splerduE5-2690 | Holding out on CPU upgrades till DDR5!•

AFAIK it's not an Intel utility, but AMI (the BIOS maker) I haven't tried using their tool, but someone in the linked thread seems to have used it to successfully downgrade an X370 board.

1
rilgebat•

I can confirm that 0070 on my Asus b450-F has a drop in latency and performance with the exact same memory settings and cpu OC. Also - there is memory instability, that is why Asus is rushing out 0072 updates.(have not made one for the b450-f yet)

0072 was rolled out because PBO wasn't operating correctly in 0070 resulting in lower clocks, which is why you're seeing a performance regression; not because of some mythical latency change.

Releasing 0070 was likely a mistake on Asus's part, as other vendors led with 0072 even before Asus pushed 0070.

-4
cellardoor240R5 2600 | 8GB 3000 | GTX 1070•

NO - 0072 brings in fixes for memory stability over 0070. Its even listed in the change log and pretty much all users on Asus forums are reporting that.

Please don't spread misinformation.

2
rilgebat•

The only one spreading misinformation here is you. The principle issue with 0070 was PBO being broken.

Also citing Asus changelogs, lmao. Pretty much every Asus BIOS release ever claims improved stability.

Also 1usmus is claiming a drop in inter-core latency, not memory latency. So misinformation you are indeed spreading.

-2†
RCFProdRyzen 5 2600 | RX 480•

I hope you are right. I should make sure that someone backs up this information before I'm this annoyed about having to installed 0.0.7.2.

2
Grassyloki•

I'd bet this is a security patch. A little birdie told me* something big is about to drop

3
AMDOfficialOfficial AMD Account•

We have reproduced the described issue with these beta BIOS updates and are investigating a solution. In the interim, affected customers are advised to use the latest non-beta BIOS update based on AGESA 1006 or 1004c.

3
hercs95•

I cant downgrade the bios

1
zappor1700X | ASUS Prime X370 | Tri-X Fury @ 4096 CU•

Then again, if you have a 1700X that's running great, you're not really the target audience for these new BIOS releases.

​

I'm usually all for running bleeding edge software, but when it comes to the BIOS I usually come to a point where I'm happy with my setup and stop updating...

2
Fanu12OPAMD 2700X | 1080Ti•

new BIOSes improve memory compatibility, there are reasons to upgrade even if you're on first gen zens

5
zappor1700X | ASUS Prime X370 | Tri-X Fury @ 4096 CU•

Yeah they did that for some time, but I don't think they've done any work related to Ryzen 1 for a long time now. So it's more likely that you will get regressions than any benefit for that platform by now I think...

2
Ph42oN•

I was planning to update new bios on my prime x370 pro. But if this happens then i guess better wait. Currently im on 4207.

2
Kuivamaa•

These findings are literally the only thing preventing me from using these bioses.

2
loadliner•

Hm my MSI x370 never went for the 0.0 Bios. Last Bios is on AGESA Code 1.0.0.6.

Is that also affected ? https://de.msi.com/Motherboard/support/X370-GAMING-M7-ACK#down-bios

2
iBoMbYR⁷ 2700X|Radeon VII•

Well, maybe Asus is at some fault. Since they lost elmor they also seem to have lost the focus.

1†
Fanu12OPAMD 2700X | 1080Ti•

micro codes are AMDs doing, BIOS makers implement them into their BIOS releases afaik

17
iBoMbYR⁷ 2700X|Radeon VII•

But in the past they noticed such regression and would try to avoid sub-par releases, and contact AMD to get this fixed.

3
Fanu12OPAMD 2700X | 1080Ti•

what makes you think MSI, gigabyte, asrock and others dont see similar results with their latest BIOSes ? why is it only Asus at fault here ?

10
iBoMbYR⁷ 2700X|Radeon VII•

They all never cared about things like that. They are all pretty bad. Just like with the big software security fuckup from Asus recently.

2†
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
ledankmememaster•

Got any proof of the contrary? I can't find any info in your link and from what you've cited, the only data point is for the CH6. For all we know they might've changed or messed up something in their BIOS itself.

0†
TheIcarusSerinity•

I found the discussion and 1usmus stated ASUS is not to blame, and it affects all new bios updates. So I assume he tested other vendors.

I also did try a AIDA memtest comparison.
https://imgur.com/a/95AwUYn

I see latency decrease on memory, but increase in L3.

Bandwidth increase across all caches.

​

Not tried with manual timings yet, since the bios reset all my settings, and was not able to recover them from the profile... X470 Strix-F with 2600X. DOCP at 3000mhz.

5
TheIcarusSerinity•

Also 1usmus tried to replace the microcode in a moded version of the bios but it did not solve the issue. He stated that "Unfortunately, the replacement of the microcode did not solve the problem, the IF control is in other files ... I will look further ... "

In the end it is sad that we get a performance regression at this point, and hopefully this is a temporary thing.

4
Jerky_san•

Really do miss Elmor.. Just having a person around to tell your problems to who might listen and get things fixed made Asus boards worthwhile.

5
ElTamalesThreadripper 1950X @ 3.9Ghz | Gigabyte 1070 G1•

damn.. so this is why he stopped working on the ZenStates tool?

​

2
Jerky_san•

Don't know on that but Elmor quit Asus I believe at the time he stated he wanted to follow his passion and he wasn't getting that chance at ASUS. Still remember him making custom bios for us though at overclock.net. When ASUS broke 3200 mhz he told us the settings that were difference between the bios versions trying to help us fix the damage.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/27694588-post38965.html

3
TrevBlu192500K OC 4.2 | R9-480X 8GB | FreeSync 1440p IPS | 8GB RAM•

What happen to Elmor?

4
Jerky_san•

https://www.overclock.net/forum/27694588-post38965.html

4
TrevBlu192500K OC 4.2 | R9-480X 8GB | FreeSync 1440p IPS | 8GB RAM•

Thank you. :)

3
deaglenomics•

Guys ,

​

Just test it out yourselves , you have nothing to lose really as you can flash back to any other bios.

I installed the latest bios and get the best results I have ever seen with a bios update.

This includes gaming testing and synthetic tests.

​

Link to my AIDA64 result:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/11-amd-motherboards/1624603-rog-crosshair-vi-overclocking-thread-4025.html#post27921150

​

Latest being : Bios with AGESA 0072

1
TheBigSm0ke•

I just updated my B450-F to v2008. Does this contain that bad update?

https://www.asus.com/ca-en/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-B450-F-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/

1
hercs95•

yes

1
just-a-spazRyzen 5 2600 | Sapphire PULSE RX 580, 8GB•

I don’t know what any of this means. I have a ryzen processor but I don’t know what bios version I’m on or what microcode is being used.

I doubt I’ll run into any issues though because my GPU isn’t fast enough to create a CPU bottleneck.

I’m also running 3000mhz RAM which helps.

0†
NickT300•

AMD needs to rectify this issue, especially when New ZEN2 CPUs are drop in compatibility. Limiting gaming performance is not great at all.

-3†