Source
r/JustNoTalk•
FineCaramel

We will not be silenced. Summary Post.

I refuse to be silenced. I refuse to allow the marginalized voices in this sub to be silenced as well. The mods have decided they don't care about good faith and playing by the rules. I've tried--along with others--to be polite and diplomatic. This time, I'm revealing mod interactions with usernames attached, during February when the original complaints were made and also during the last few days. I must emphasize here that no doxxing, hounding, or persecution of the mods is encouraged. There is no justice in hurting somebody that way. This is solely to hold them accountable.

I apologize in advance if I missed tagging people--I’m trying my best, but unfortunately sometimes I do make a few mistakes when it comes to keep tracking of everybody that has stepped forward.

Please note that some of the imgur links may not work because I suspect imgur is having technical issues. Let me know if the issues persist and I will try my best to fix them--if anybody is more knowledgeable about imgur and willing to help, please let me know. Here's my account: https://imgur.com/user/FineCaramel123. Users are having success viewing these images via RES (Reddit Enhancement Suite).

I've included modmail previously not seen. These are conversations that were happening behind the scenes during the townhall. These are all the screenshots I have on my end.

February 2019 Interactions:

My comment on LadyOfTheBlight’s post, titled “Devil Dadi and My Wedding”: https://imgur.com/gallery/fVEZJ3j

Here, I was trying to point out cultural inaccuracies and educate LadyOfTheBlight. I recognize it could be interpreted differently and respect alternate viewpoints.

My mod interactions after the ban (the mod in question was Kateraide): https://imgur.com/gallery/j7Ye1y7

Racism in LadyOfTheBlight’s comments section from users and mods (mainly Flame): https://imgur.com/gallery/2KiBRBg

After these interactions, I sent a message noting two scholarly sources (Professors in South Asian Studies at my alma mater) and doxxed myself to get them to listen. It was a long, and thorough message. Here is the response I received after weeks (and me having to message them again): https://imgur.com/gallery/kDNxMgh

We found out later through ex-mods that users had sent dozens of modmail to the mods, but they just didn’t care. Many were as detailed and long as mine giving examples of why the posts were racist. They stayed up anyway. Please see here for u/OnMyWorkComputer’s comment: https://imgur.com/gallery/kcXppPe

April 2019 Sub Blow Up

u/Roastthewitch, in an act of pure bravery, risked being banned by posting about LadyOfTheBlight in Letters and expressed her discomfort the racist Devil Dadi series.

Here are some of the posts recovered afterwards, including mine:

Where is the Commitment to Change and Apology?

Here are u/RespondeatSOUPerior’s imgur album, which includes “Clarification: My Interaction with the Mods” and many mod interactions with fruitjerky and DJStrongThenKill along with other really important posts: https://imgur.com/a/9f2FkWs

Please note, we didn’t actually get any responses until I started posting my mod interactions, including my “Clarification” post. And that’s when we finally got *some* responses.

FruitJerky’s and my conversation, along with comments from u/RespondeatSOUPerior, u/BariBahu and others can be found here (I apologize if I didn’t tag everyone!): https://imgur.com/gallery/edb4nRh

My conversation with DJ (which includes the first part of what I told FruitJerky). It also includes edits to credit other users (including u/KatKit52 and u/theriverbedrunsdry) for bravely telling their stories: https://imgur.com/gallery/3n7XwCh

The Town Halls were immensely positive and allowed many users to discuss so many issues that had been prevalent for a long time in r/JustNoMiL. This included u/bookworm808, u/soayherder, and others discussion on anti-semitism. Pagan users coming forward and expressing hurt at the mockery of their faith. A couple Latinx users coming forward and discussing stereotypes and their reluctance to post for fear of hate. u/TheNameIsPoseidon wrote a powerful explanation for why LGBTQ+ issues were being treated horribly in the sub. I will try to incorporate as many of these posts as I can further below.

DJ had stated the Town Halls would be kept up for 24 hours, and there would be a series. The first was on truth policing, as many modmails about the racism and inaccuracies in LadyOfTheBlight’s posts had been conflated with it. The second was about Racism, and that one was quite powerful.

Unfortunately, the racism Town Hall was shut down after only 11-13 hours. I modmailed FruitJerky and DJStrongThenKill soon after. Here are my modmail conversations with FruitJerky: https://imgur.com/gallery/eUMgNZC

After this, I revealed the Sati comments, and that is when they started locking all the posts and shutting down the sub.

Reasons LadyOfTheBlight’s Devil Dadi Series Was Racist

I apologize if this isn’t detailed enough, but it was explained dozens of times in Letters by myself and many, many others including u/MyNameIsJayne, u/RespondeatSOUPerior, and u/BariBahu. I spent very little time on this section for personal reasons.

For reasons why LadyOfTheBlight was racist even if the post was real (it is not, for the record), please see u/Roastthewitch’s amazing summary: https://imgur.com/gallery/HMGbvgy

Signs of False Posting

  1. Unfamiliarity with Indian culture, including animal sacrifice (when it is performed—and that is extremely rare), and cultural inconsistencies
  2. Blending of Islamic and Hindu stereotypes and cultural practices
  3. Completely false accounts of Hindu religious customs and others
  4. u/RespondeatSOUPerior can also elaborate on the Islamic themes that were totally irreconcilable with the Hindu elements

The racism was a compilation of many, many posts and interactions with community members. Nobody on this sub, including in the South Asian community, believe it is okay to leverage cultural practices for abuse, but what LadyOfTheBlight had elaborated were fabricated accounts and used culture as a weapon to mock and humiliate her MiL on a public sub with other South Asian community members here.

Entire Town Hall on Racism

God bless the person that took the time to screenshot this entire town hall for the sub. Please read this to capture the full breadth and depth of the issues in this sub with racism. You will find Jewish, Muslim, Christian, Pagan, LGBTQ+, Latinx, Hindu, and other communities concerns, and it is so vital we all review this.

Town Hall Part 2: https://imgur.com/a/21GIaLV

Special thanks to u/MrShineTheDiamond, u/RespondSOUPerior, u/iblametheowl2, u/babybulldogtugs, u/difficulty-accepted, u/tyaway88 for their help with screenshots and everything else. They are the definition of support and resilience.

EDIT: Major thank you to u/peri_enitan who put together an amazing and comprehensive summary of not only the Letters period but the one we're in now as well. Your contributions and hard work are deeply appreciated. Here is the link: https://www.reddit.com/r/JustNoTalk/comments/bae57a/chronicling_what_is_going_on/

Posted Apr 6, 2019, 11:40 PM UTC · edited

361149
Allrawdogsgotoheaven•

Thank you AGAIN caramel and the other users mentioned for going through more emotional labor to compile this for us. This is an amazingly comprehensive resource of everything that went down and I hope users still questing what happened can be pointed to this so you can get a ghat damn break you deserve it. If anyone is still confused after reading this they’re choosing to deliberately be ignorant.

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FineCaramelOPModerator•

We're still compiling! The Town Hall 2 is now entirely here, but it would be amazing to get even more, especially on the anti-semitism, LGBTQ+, Pagan, Latinx, and other concerns. I'm hopeful people reading Town Hall 2 will see them, but more targeted screenshots are available as well.

I've also tried messaging users whose posts have been salvaged. Again, this is a massive team effort and I did very little--this is all users who are far smarter than I and screenshotted so many of these.

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FineCaramelOPModerator•

Thank you for all the support u/Allrawdogsgotoheaven! I really, truly appreciate it. I'm hopeful that if we can advise users to visit this link (if it's not working, try Reddit Enhancement Suite (RES) as that seems to be working for people). I'm really hoping then we can all take a break.

28
thatwhinypeasant•

Wowww, that screenshot with the mod talking about Sati and saying 'The British (white people)...' to you. Wowwww. I have no words right now. I've had one person talk to me like that in my life and they were an 80 year so I gave them a bit of leeway. The fact that an at most middle aged person holds those kind of thoughts about colonialism makes me sick. Thought this kind of thought process was being wiped out.

I guess the next thing will be a post about a native MIL. Maybe we'll be told about what savages they also were until Columbus (white people) wipe those practises out for the uneducated savages who were too stupid to know better.

I thought I was upset before, I don't even know how to express how I feel now.

Once again, kudos to you u/FineCaramel and others for bringing this disgusting behaviour to light.

62
FineCaramelOPModerator•

I was pretty upset with Flame for that. It got deleted by another mod (I went back and checked), not Flame, so I can't even give them credit for it like I did in Letters. I was wrong on that one. Flame was pretty much just racist in that interaction and not apologetic.

Thank you! Let's hope nobody ever posts anything like that about indigenous folks. Although with the way the sub is, my hopes aren't terribly high honestly

45
[deleted]•

I'm very proud of how calmly you guys responded to that- when I saw that screenshot for the first time back when this whole issue started, I literally wanted to throw my phone at a wall.

23
FineCaramelOPModerator•

I'm glad you didn't! Otherwise, how would we get your contributions when you're on the move? Thanks for everything u/Roastthewitch. You're amazing.

28
[deleted]•

Aww I'm blushing... You don't give yourself enough credit lol <3

18
thatwhinypeasant•

As long as it gets upvoted and is popular, the mods are okay with racism, sadly.

17
NurserySchoolTeacher•

I was actually confused when I first read that because I've never heard someone say (write) something like that unless they were being sarcastic. It's so brazenly racist it took me a second to realize she was serious. That's actually, seriously not okay for someone in a position of power in a support sub.

43
thatwhinypeasant•

Yeah, it would still have been racist for someone in this day and age to say the part about the British stopping the practice, but adding the 'white people' part is just crazy...

15
snowfox090•

How did she think that was a good idea long enough for her to type it out and hit reply???

5
BariBahu•

I took that mod to task about these comments as well when they literally whitesplained sati to u/FineCaramel, and I’ll be honest, I wouldn’t have cared if they were a “sweet” 102-year-old who owned a pie shop and gave out free ice cream to little kids. It’s still racist, and you’re still being an asshole, grandma.

I know what you meant, and I really appreciate your support and the sentiment of your words. It’s just something I’ve been feeling lately. Start calling out your racist grandmas, y’all.

37
thatwhinypeasant•

I also appreciate your response and I know you know what I meant, but you're assuming I'm white and just making excuses for my 'racist grandma' when I'm not. I'm South Asian (not Indian, but Sri Lankan) and have also been hurt by the events of this sub. I didn't realize I needed to provide additional context for a throwaway comment, but the person who said this to me (when I was 10) was an 80 year old lady who helped my grandfather immensely when he immigrated to Canada. So maybe you might not care about that, but for me it adds some nuance to the conversation, at least in this specific instance and at that specific period of time. Like I said, I know you know what I meant (as you said) but I think it's important to add context.

11
BariBahu•

I didn’t mean your grandma specifically but in general. I was making a general point about how people also need to have these conversations outside this sub, meaning actually having those conversations with people we love or like. That means everyone, not just white people too so my point stands. My own South Asian grandma is racist and we call her on it constantly.

17
BariBahu•

Fucking finally I have somewhere to just link to when the straggling poor soul shows up with a “DD is fake?!”

Love you for this and for all that started this, right back to when you messaged me two months ago. There was a comment on SRD that expressed confusion on why we were being so “dramatic” about this, and it must be nice to live a life where you can’t even begin to understand how exhausting it is to have to repeatedly justify your existence and right to not be stereotyped against. I hope those who look this over somewhat understand how shitty this was for us.

JNM has been a great source of support for me when I was just a ball of rage and sadness. I’m not sure where I’ll go for that now exactly, but I do know I have people like you, u/RespondeatSOUPerior, u/Roastthewitch, u/soayherder, and so many others I’m too wiped to tag but please know if we’ve spoken you’re in my thoughts too.

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RespondeatSOUPeriorModerator•

I saw that comment.

"Dramatic."

When pointing out racism and trying to justify your existence gets your life put in danger.

It's like people don't understand that you can't turn a blind eye to this. Silence in the face of oppression in siding with the oppressor — could you imagine if we just let people stereotype us? How bad it would be? Desis are already treated like trash.

We'll always be here to support you when things go sideways! With gifs! And cats!

33
BariBahu•

You can take my LetterstoJNMIL but you can’t take my GIFs!

23
FineCaramelOPModerator•

Love you for all your support the last few months <3

17
agree-with-you•

I love you both

12
peri_enitan•

That srd troll! Yeah you try leaving your entire "family" behind, undo all the brain wash and find a way to be safe and interact with people in healthy ways just like that. It's sooook unimportant to have that one space taken away from you where people get it and don't just go "but s/he's your [relative]!". And I'm not dealing with racism either.

14
peachpieparadise•

I’d really like to believe that troll is in the minority & the majority of the sub (myself included) were just ignorant about South Asian culture but now are incredibly sorry for being so oblivious to the racism & how marginalised you were made to feel by the DD posts. I’ve tried to keep up with everything that’s been posted over the last few days so I can do better in future and I’ll be sure to direct anyone who doesn’t seem to understand here. You’ve all done a fine job of educating the sub & holding the mods accountable, and been pretty gracious & reasonable in your interactions with posters & mods so it’s incredibly disappointing that nothing has changed. I said elsewhere that deleting Letters was at best tone deaf & at worst shady AF - I still stand by that.

6
peri_enitan•

The subredditdrama troll is a different thing from what happened on the jnmil sub. I haven't read DD posts but I'm happy we now have a place where people can ask and explain freely.

5
LegalNacMacFleegle•

I find it disingenuous for mods to have suggested that they couldn’t think of a way to improve transparency when there were simple obvious actions they just weren’t taking.

For example: providing an explanation for why they locked threads or deleted comments. I vaguely remember that the mod team promised this basic check back when the sub rebooted in October....but I’m also pretty sure that happened on Letters.

Or, following through with their stated action plan of engaging in the town halls.

Or shopping proposed rules through a survey or townhall post.

34
ohlittlelove•

Thank you so, so much for doing this Fine. Yet again I am in awe of the work and emotional labour you're willing to carry out in order to bring all of this to light.

Also, holy gaslighting batman re: the modmail with jerky. Just. For fucks sake.

32
FineCaramelOPModerator•

No, thank you for all the support! Really, I do appreciate it from ALL of you. You all have been incredible through this.

I will say this--my boyfriend was a little alarmed that night when I became quite frustrated at FruitJerky's and my conversation (this happened quite late, between midnight and 1am). I hope it didn't bleed through in the conversation though, as I didn't want to give her a reason not to correspond with me at all.

23
ohlittlelove•

I honestly don't think it did, though you had every right to imo. I'm forever impressed by your grace and eloquence in all of this.

16
babybulldogtugs•

With permission from u/yoursweetbebe , here are the screenshots of her post "I have something to say as a woman of color" from letterstojnmil before it was shut down.

http://imgur.com/gallery/0gAo5L7

21
hail-rexina•

I am again amazed by your resilience and dedication to helping. The user base really doesn’t deserve you and the others who took a stand against this deplorable situation. I really hope you’re taking care of yourself.

18
FineCaramelOPModerator•

Thank you! I'm just hoping that more users are able to have those important posts recovered. It's absolutely insane that they closed Letters. It shouldn't have ever happened.

13
TBLCoastieSenior Moderator•

Thank you so much for this, Caramel. Your perspective and perseverance in presenting this is truly appreciated.

18
I_NEED_SLEEP_NAO•

I'm not shocked by these comments and posts. I was very wary after the last modgate. The amount of posts that were removed for MILpoligizing or shaming OP were insane and kind of confirmed my suspicions on where the sub was going - Cosmopolitan Advice Columns 101. It's like all logic or outside opinion beyond the mean girls hive mind was pushed out. Reasonable commentary slowly dissolved. Regular users that posted thorough advice I enjoyed disappeared. And who could blame them when their comments were left getting ignored while a series of witty one liner comments suggesting seriously disparaging (to 'ABC group of people') names or violent acts were upvoted. We all understand the value of comic relief but seriously, it got out of hand and started to enable a lot of bigger problems.

Side note: Kudos to those who continued trying to give solid thorough advice.

18
GayHibiscus•

As someone whose ethnicity and culture are often appropriated by Pagans and Christians, I'm really wary that they're going to say not allowing egg cleansing and such are "persecution." Saying "x beliefs are silly" is equal to the DD and other shit makes me really uncomfortable. White Christians don't need their hands held. They're by far the most popular group on reddit and in Europe+USA.

17
FineCaramelOPModerator•

I’m not very familiar with Paganism, but I am with Christianity. I recognize that Christianity is not marginalized and I don’t include them in that label. That said, I did want to include that they brought concerns to the table as well.

I do not think any concerns rooted in bigotry and justified by faith are valid though—and I stand very strongly by that.

12
GayHibiscus•

A lot of the so-called "anti-Christian" things in JustNoMil were literally just "I'm atheist, my MIL is a super religious zealot like the WBC and wants to bomb gays." or "I don't want my kid baptised, I think it's outdated and silly." Nobody was going "teehee Christians = braindead LOL go to hell" like they were to marginalised people like Desi women on that sub.

The "anti-paganism" has been "I didn't want my MIL to do X ceremony to my kid especially since there was no consent" or "my mil used black magic but I don't believe in it so don't leave advice about that part."

14
FineCaramelOPModerator•

I can take out Christians if you'd prefer--but with the Pagans, I might let more Pagan voices speak out as I just don't know enough about the issue. I did hear discussions about Pagans being mocked and made into bad jokes. Have you observed that as well?

5
GayHibiscus•

Very little mockery has been said in comments or posts as far as I've seen, as pagan MILs are incredibly rare. A lot of users have requested no advice regarding dealing with "magic" and other things, but an actual insult or belittlement of paganism is fairly non-existent there.

8
adriellealways•

Pagan is an umbrella term for religions, usually but not always polytheistic, that don't fall under the major world religions. Indigenous religions can be included under that umbrella, though that's not universally accepted. Santeria can also be considered a pagan religion, though again that depends on who you ask. Given the limitations on religious freedom for pagans in the US, I feel it is appropriate for them to be included. I no longer consider myself pagan and I'm not willing to get into the argument over whether my own religion is valid, but people absolutely do discriminate against pagans of various sects. There are many misconceptions about paganism (like people thinking paganism is one religion; they're thinking of Wicca) and many of those stereotypes are harmful. That being said, there are pagans who take from other cultures without permission and I don't think questioning that is discrimination.

2
giraffewoman•

Thanks for this. I am going to feel really uncomfortable until the mods issue a very public, stickied apology to you and EVERYONE who was unfairly banned or ignored in all of this.

One of your links is broken I think, maybe Roastthewitches comments? I don’t see those. But the rest worked and shed a lot of light on everything.

15
Cynistera•

Why do you think they'd ever apologize?

7
giraffewoman•

I don’t, necessarily. Just stating my personal boundary.

12
[deleted]•

The number one thing that rubbed me the wrong way about LotB was her problem with the special bread like dishes like Bitch that shit sounds good. You know what doesn’t? The traditional Russian dessert my dad would eat to impress his GMiL. Prunes in cream, and he has IBS. Not pretty.

15
Creepiz•

I had a comment to follow up on the LotB bread thing which I completely forgot as I read the second part of your post. Props to your dad. I do not think I could knowingly eat something not only sounds terrible, but would also cause massive amounts of gastro distress.

6
[deleted]•

My dad knows how to please people, so he pleased his old Russian GMiL by eating it and then saving my uncle (aunt’s husband) by eating his too. He is not a picky eater, and constantly eats raw oysters.

2
asublimeduet•

Thank you so much for this. JNMIL has provided so many invaluable resources to me but I often have felt uncomfortable actually commenting there due to the racism and orientalism, especially fake posts. Thank you for doing this and for sticking up for marginalised people.

​

edit: Seeing mods portray colonisers in the way Flame did was pretty upsetting, as someone who also comes from a British-colonised people.

12
Shopping_Mart•

u/finecaramel you are handling this with grace and however this plays out, just know that you have the support of so many people who believe in right thing, myself included. Thank you for coming forward with everything.

10
Nocturnalinsomniac•

I am shocked at Flame’s brazenly sarcastic ‘white-splaining’ of sati. It’s especially hilarious to highlight the great the British Raj did considering the harms and it’s fallout that is still being felt to this day.

Both yours and u/BariBahu restraint in the comments are commendable. I hope you get an apology for it.

Edit: autocorrect

10
chocobruha32•

What is the plan though?

I encourage to keep speaking out. Don't be silenced. Be heard! But it's like screaming at a wall.

What do we do? What CAN we do?

9
FineCaramelOPModerator•

Not much... I've heard that we could spread it to r/all and r/subredditdrama, but I haven't done that before and I'm cautious to do so without really knowing the consequences. The most we can do is spread the word, but considering this sub count and the users I've spotted who are very prominent members of the community, it seems word IS spreading.

I wanted an account of this because it's so important--and so that everybody could see exactly what was done. I wish I had done this sooner but it took a very long time to compile all of this and more than a few breaks to finally finish it for self-care.

16
chocobruha32•

You could get banned. You will be villainized heavily by the mods and pro- changes.

But if you feel it is absolutely worth it to bring a change that must happen, you kick the door open and do it!

12
FineCaramelOPModerator•

Well.. I highly doubt I am their favorite person anyway. I did just dump a lot of screenshots with their usernames attached.

Would you know if it's happened before?

14
chocobruha32•

I remember the first modpocolypse unless it predates even that.

If it does, hoo boy.

9
MrShineTheDiamondSenior Moderator•

My concern with spreading all of this to r/all (it's already on SRD), would be the harm to the community. I'm not sure this kind of exposure would be good for some. This is stressful enough without having to rehash this again with trolls and people just wanting a laugh.

7
FineCaramelOPModerator•

Yeah, that's my worry as well. I'd rather spread it through r/JustNoMiL rather than open up the community to abuse. I've never seen a situation like this handled via r/all so I'm not certain how bad it can become.

7
peri_enitan•

I think it's bad enough on srd already. There's enough people going lol all fake anyway. And full disclosure I also posted on srd at the beginning of this. I didn't know where else to go.

5
babybulldogtugs•

This is an incredible compilation, thank you so much for taking the time and emotional labor to do it, especially when you've already gone above and beyond multiple times already. ♥️

8
PingTheAwesome•

Thank you for posting this!

However, I had an idea. Feel free to shoot me down if you’d like. What if we had a Hall here? The mods wouldn’t be there, but issues could be discussed and suggestions given that would be in categorized threads.

This way we won’t have to worry about losing our posts. This way, we CAN speak freely. I missed out on the Hall completely, but if given the chance to speak, I’d likely comment on disability, college, and LBGQTIA+ issues.

8
FineCaramelOPModerator•

I love that idea, personally. I think it's important to have a few at least! Here are the ones I propose:

Racism

LGBTQIA+ Issues

Religious Discrimination - Anti-semitism and others

Truth Policing

Fearmongering

MiL Apologizing

​

Do you have others?

3
PingTheAwesome•

Disabilities.

I saw several posts where if a MIL had a disability, it was attacked hard or the poster had to explain their own condition in depth.

Maybe even age-ism?

Sexism: comments about dried out vagina all the damn time and implying that’s why the MILs were dysfunctional

5
FineCaramelOPModerator•

A separate one for Disabilities and Mental Health Stigma would be good. Maybe we can combine Agism and Sexism?

3
PingTheAwesome•

Sexism might be better combined with the SA Town Hall.

2
toomuchfuschia•

Fine, I dont know what else to say other than I'm glad you were able to bring this out into the open. You and everyone else that spoke up deserve to be heard and understood <3

(I can't tag others very well as I'm on mobile)

7
FineCaramelOPModerator•

It's okay! Thank you, I appreciate it!

5
peri_enitan•

Thank you a d everyone who helped you for this. We need to chronicle what's going on. This is our story. Stories agape identity. We won't let this go. We will keep making our voices heard. I've learnt so much from you about Indian culture already. It was wildly interesting and I've grown up seriously ignorant. I always want to widen my horizons. Thank you for speaking up. Thank you for doing all this emotional labour. Thank you for educating us ignorant people. It shouldn't be on you. All of this is deeply wrong. Let's they to make it as right as we can.

7