Source
r/GCdebatesQT•
sosososhocking

QT, but specifically Feminist QT: How do you address this concern?

I recently posted a thread titled "What leads a trans woman to think they are a woman?" I got a lot of interesting responses, which you can read here if you want: https://www.reddit.com/r/GCdebatesQT/comments/b9xith/what_leads_a_trans_woman_to_believe_they_are_a/

It seems to me that the various reasons why a trans woman thinks they are a woman can fit into two buckets: body dysphoria and social dysphoria.

Body dysphoria includes unhappiness with the physical form and could range from "I never liked my genitals" to "I was uncomfortable during puberty" and so forth. Although commonly expressed, it seems to be somewhat of a side note since most of the LGBT community apparently believes this isn't necessary to be trans anyway. And in any event, I personally don't see the argument as very persuasive. If someone transitions to relieve dysphoria, I see that as treating a mental illness rather than conferring membership in womanhood.

The next category is social dysphoria, which is the most interesting to me from a feminist perspective. I've seen this defined in various ways, but I'm using it in the sense of "I'm uncomfortable or do not associate or identify with the gender roles of my AGAB."

And really, this goes beyond just being unhappy with your AGAB roles. A person could be non-binary or gender non-conforming under those circumstances. In this case, it goes beyond that by saying "I'm not happy with my AGAB roles and I would like the roles of a woman."

The problem is, the roles of a woman are largely assigned by a patriarchal social order and feminists like myself see them as oppressive. When trans women are desirous of those roles, it validates those roles.

And to make matters worse, then people say that "trans women are women", then that means that adherence to oppressive gender roles makes someone a woman. In fact, that's all someone who was born male needs to become a woman. They take these oppressive roles and make them part of the essential qualifications of womanhood... which is a huge problem. I've seen some trans women say "well, that's just how society sees these roles, I'm not endorsing them" but that's no excuse - this is the same logic men have used for centuries to keep women oppressed. It's just the way things are. That's a sentiment that feminism stands firmly against.

It strikes me as anti-feminist and trans women's views on what womanhood is can range from problematic to unabashedly oppressive. Whenever I see a trans woman claim they are a woman because they're inherently submissive, I'm seriously bothered.

I've seen some trans women (or allies) claim they are feminists. I truly do not understand how someone can put their stamp of approval on patriarchal gender roles and still call themselves a feminist.

And even if you don't do that, I have never ever ever seen anyone in the trans community call out a trans person for openly misogynistic views on womanhood. (For example, I've seen a trans woman say they picked their name because it was a "dumb blonde" sounding name and nobody seemed to care. I think this was someone who was deep into the bimbo/trans fetish. If anyone needs the clarification, approving of the "dumb blonde" stereotype is not a feminist thing to do.) Again, I don't understand how someone can call them a feminist while also not speaking up against this. Someone who finds this concerning but does nothing is, I'm sorry to say, not a feminist.

So your thoughts would be appreciated.

Posted Apr 9, 2019, 3:30 PM UTC · edited

53267
peakingatthemoment•

I'm not QT, but I am a trans natal male. I don't think there is any way to actually believe you are a woman without reinforcing gender to an extent and I think this is problematic from a feminist standpoint. Even if you don't believe you are a woman, but want to function socially as one, there are some problems with this or at least ways you could be doing more to break down oppressive structures. It's something that worries me and I've tried to put some thought into.

I was a naturally GNC gay child essentially. I don't know for certain, but I feel like my gender issues probably developed around that. Realizing as a fairly young person that I could pass a girl and no longer be seen as GNC by others really helped reinforce the idea that I was really a girl inside and that "transition" made sense for me. I started passing in my late teens and really just focused on living life after that. I really didn't deal with these sort of big questions at the time or spend much time thinking of myself as trans.

I feel like there are different reasons people transition, so what I am saying it only really meant to apply to myself and maybe some others like me. I think in an ideal world, we probably wouldn't develop dysphoria or want to be seen as women socially because our behavior wouldn't be labeled that way it is, we wouldn't internalize social messages, we wouldn't be shamed for our orientation, we wouldn't be mistreated for our behavior or some combination of those things. I sometimes wonder about different scenarios in which I wouldn't have transitioned, but I'm here now and I've lived more of my life since I transitioned than prior.

I tell myself that I'm not reinforcing gender in the eyes of others any more or less than a female because people who interact with me think I am female. If they view me as conforming to gender roles they will assume it was because of gendered socialization as opposed to gender roles making me a woman. It's a small consolation, but it seems less damaging than someone who reads like a certain sex saying they are really the other sex because of their behavior or feelings.

I also don't go around telling people I'm male, but that would be an amazing thing. If I did, I would be seen as highly gender non-conforming and that would actually push against gender roles as opposed to how I live currently. I feel guilty about this at times because I really feel like we'd be in a better place if gender non-conforming children didn't feel pushed to transition and were just treated better and told that how they were was okay. I'm happily married and have a career that I've developed so I don't really feel like I'm in a place where I could come out as male even though it would push back against gender roles. I also don't know what the social consequences would be and I like my social role currently. I'm just trying not to do damage and to advocate against gender where I can. I realize it isn't perfect...

18
Hypocritical-Cunt•

I'm happily married and have a career that I've developed so I don't really feel like I'm in a place where I could come out as male even though it would push back against gender roles.

Does your spouse not know you’re trans already? Is your career limited to females?

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peakingatthemoment•

My spouse does know I’m trans, but none of his family or friends know. I feel like me coming out like that would likely end our relationship or strain it significantly. Despite knowing about my history, he sees himself as straight and I feel like it would be wrong to pull him into something he didn’t sign up for. We’re partners in this so I feel like it would have to be something we decided together.

Not at all. I work in Human Resources. I guess it’s more like worries about having to come out to coworkers, references, and other people who’ve only know me as female (even if it was an incorrect assessment) and the potential damage that could do to those relationships (some of which go back more than a decade). I’m not sure if it would make it harder or find work in the future. I don’t live in a state that protects me against discrimination based on these things. In a perfect world, it shouldn’t matter.

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DivingRightIntoWork•

Somewhat associated thought... I perform what I call "lazy female." My life is easier when I "look like a pretty woman," or whatever. At nearly 2 meters tall, and aspie, I'll always be what I light heartedly call a "gender failure."

I don't actively buck gender because that's work. But I also don't put a lot of effort into "pretty, normal, female" presenting either. No make up (except sometimes but it's usually more costumey, or because I'm going into something where I'll be punished for not looking girlier), no jewelry, I live in athleisure wear, etc. My hair is maybe slightly long but relatively unstyled.. and when there are occasions when I'm "supposed" to be pretty, sometimes I'll go 'girly' or 'andro femme' a la Bowie or Lennox.

​

Again I don't really put a lot of effort into "not" being female.. but I also don't really try, either.

​

I've had a few convos with transwomen where I do call them out on maintaining patriarichal definitions of femininity, longer hair, certain types of clothing, etc. and they'll be like "You have these things," and it's like "sure. I do. Because my life will be easier if I make any amount of effort to be 'pretty female,' and I'll be punished the less I try. so I try as little as possible for as much reward as possible,' whereas the transwoman is taking a deliberate, challenging path to present within society constructs of femininity.

​

It is one thing to not fully fight the role you're given, it's another to appropriate it in spite of things.

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

It is one thing to not fully fight the role you're given, it's another to appropriate it in spite of things.

I agree with that. We can't expect everyone to go on an all-out 24/7 assault on the patriarchy, but we can expect people to avoid actively endorsing it.

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DivingRightIntoWork•

As much as anything else, why does one categorize long hair and dresses as woman's things?

What to do either of those things have to do with being a woman.

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

It took me a while to wrap my head around this question, and it only recently came to me. It's not about being a woman - it's about being seen as a woman. An important distinction. The gender roles of a woman seem preferable, so the only way to actually fit in that role is to present in a way that's in line with society's perception of a woman. The only problem is that society's perception of a woman is actively oppressive and harmful.

This also addressed an ancillary question I had, which is why trans women can often react so explosively to what they would call misgendering. (See, for reference, the GameStop "I'm ma'am" video.) It's because when you call a trans woman "sir", you are denying them the social role they're striving for.

And as much as I might disagree with QT as to what makes a woman, I can only imagine how difficult the transitioning process is. Imagine taking hormones for months or even years, getting surgeries, basically making it your second job to alter your appearance only to be told "nah, still not buying it." There are some MTF who will pass, but usually because they had feminine features or were fairly androgynous to begin with. The majority of MTF will not. I can't imagine what it must be like to be in that situation.

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DivingRightIntoWork•

It's hard for me to relate in so much that I've been missexed/misgendered for my entire life, and it's always just been a shrug. But then I've never really wanted to be a man, or a woman. I was just me. If I were to wake up as a member of the opposite sex tomorrow, I'd still be me. My vulva is not a sense of myself. I'd have to re-learn how society related to a 6+ tall man, and things like that.. but that isn't about me being different.

I've been afraid that I'd be rejected because I wasn't a "good" woman, re; too tall, not sufficiently interested in sex, too small chested.. but that's pain and fear of not being accepted for what you are, rather than not accepting what you are.

​

But yes, ideologically I understand that if you work very hard to be X, or Y, (or let's say.. A or B...) and.. you're not recognized for it. Though in this case A, or B, could be a good baker, a good dog trainer, a patient human... And I suppose there's just a sad reality or truth that some people will never be good at being A or B.

​

There's a lot of things that I've suffered being reminded that I'll never be good at, or never be... and that was all a lot of internal work regarding attachment, letting go, etc.

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

Well you can ignore my comment then, because that's exactly what I said, haha.

On a related note, trans people really relate to Morpheus's speech in the Matrix, which makes sense when you add in the fact that it was written by two closeted trans women.

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dadmothpro-trans lesbian sjw•

social dysphoria is not desiring female gender roles, it’s desiring to be female, and as a result, be perceived as female. all social dysphoria is is desiring to socially be seen as female. this is why the further trans women are in their transition and the better they pass as female purely based on their secondary sex characteristics, the more varied gender expression you will see, since they no longer need to use things like makeup as “tools” to hide or negate more male characteristics.

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transmaiden•

I view social dysphoria as being interconnected w/ sex dysphoria and primarily concerning pronouns, and words to describe one's self, and also how one wishes others to see them as.

Ie, she/her, woman, female, etc, for mtfs, and he/him, man, male for ftms.

In my experience it is usually linguistics & social interactions that drive social dysphoria, not gender expression. On a deserted island, body dysphoria could still exist, but social dysphoria would not.

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throwaway275445•

But pronoun concerns have only taken off in the last couple of years yet social dysphoria had existed much longer. Sorry but I think the linguistic side is just something some people have jumped on to control others and the narrative. The history of the movement shows that.

Also pronouns are mostly used when taking about someone, so they are usually not in the conversation, that means they can't really be the main driver for most people's dysphoria.

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Hypocritical-Cunt•

Also pronouns are mostly used when taking about someone, so they are usually not in the conversation, that means they can't really be the main driver for most people's dysphoria.

Right? I heard myself referred to as “she” once today (I overheard kids telling their teacher “we like HC, she’s nicer!”) Every other conversation I was referred to as “you” because people were talking to me, not behind my back while I was in hearing range.

If people are talking about you while you’re within earshot more than they’re talking to you, you probably have bigger issues than what pronouns they’re using...

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transmaiden•

Not necessarily, it's more insidious than that. We connect words like she/her, female, and woman to (naturally) being a woman, and female. Likewise for male, etc.

So when one is called by male pronouns & honourifics, it forcibly reminds one's self of one's sex dysphoria, particularly, one's maleness. Because maleness & he/him, man, male, father, son, etc, are all intertwined. Language is connected to a decent extent to biological sex, and it shows, in everyday social interactions.

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

In my experience it is usually linguistics & social interactions that drive social dysphoria, not gender expression.

Wouldn't you agree, though, that linguistics and social interactions are intimately tied with gender expression?

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transmaiden•

Not necessarily. I'd think in languages other than english, social dysphoria is likely much easier to handle (no pronouns! although man/woman still exist tbf). If we could have a gender neutral language I think most social dysphoria would dissipate.

As for gender expression vs transness...I want to be a woman, I hate being male, but I also want to be myself, which happens to have androgynous gender expression and is what I'm most comfortable with.

I want to change my sex, and language imo is intrinsically tied to sex in many regards. Gender? Who cares, I wanna wear skirts and hoodies and pants and dresses and play video games and write books and play music and wear makeup and also not wear makeup depending on my mood.

None of those, none whatsoever, have to do w/ sex. They may make it easier to help my social dysphoria ie w/ passing etc, but it's not at all a major factor for me.

In fact, I have this strange suspicion that once I have SRS, my social dysphoria will vanish entirely, and I might even find it funny to be read as a man post-op by random people. I think social dysphoria is fed by insecurity, and there's nothing better to secure yourself in who you are than wiping out all your sex dysphoria in one go with SRS.

Once my sex dysphoria is gone I feel like I'll finally be able to truly enjoy life. I could even present myself as a super femme flamboyant guy and be fine. Or go super "butch" (apologies for appropriation, I mean looking like a masculine woman here, not a masculine man, xp) and be fine as well. I could play around with gender, do any kind of presentation I like, and none of how people treat me will affect me in any way. I could finally be free to explore who I really am behind all this dysphoria.

I can't wait. It's gonna be a long few years, tho.

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Thatstealthygal•

A silly question but do you think some English speaking trans people would experience much less dysphoria if they moved to a place with ungendered language and no pronouns? Would living with a language that doesn't distinguish help?

How does this play out by comparison in places where everything has a gender, not just people and animals? Worse? Better? The same?

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transmaiden•

I can't speak for others but I do think I would feel better if I wasn't english speaking, like for example I barely know any Chinese but the pronouns for males and females in Mandarin sound the same (both are "ta") and only written differently. And I think if my main language was Mandarin my social dysphoria wouldn't be as bad.

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Coppercumin2357•

Boyfriend is trans + a native speaker of a highly gendered language. Early in transition he avoided his native language *entirely* because it was so much more stressful.

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gayorles57•

and also how one wishes others to see them as.

Do you think that "telling someone what pronouns they have to use for you" is the same thing as "making someone actually see you in a certain way"?

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transmaiden•

No, but it helps w/ dysphoria regardless. Also I'm not gonna tell people, I ask, I don't demand,

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gayorles57•

Fair enough.

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Coppercumin2357•

It’s actually fairly common for trans people NOT to ask any particular pronouns (ie: “I don’t care. just use whatever”) specifically because they dont want to feel like someone’s only using the right pronouns as a favor. These sort of trans people don’t stick out tbough, because pronoun-refusal gets rid of one of the biggest “is trans!” Signals.

​

speaking personally, I didn’t want people to get my pronouns right. I wanted to hear what pronoun people *thought* made sense for me.

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Ananiujithatryke-born-tryke•

We may not like the social roles, or only like some. But still find it safer to be categorized as women than as freaks.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Ananiujithatryke-born-tryke•

Well, in my experience, being seen as a boy or a man, but not enough of one, got me beaten up a lot; being seen as a woman doesn't.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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heliophobic•

hey, sorry that this doesn't have anything to do with the post, but I just got onto this sub and I don't know what QT stands for, could someone give me a heads-up please?

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

Queer Theory. It can be seen as the opposite to gender critical in this context.

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heliophobic•

thank you 🙌

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

So social gender roles are arbitrary, and can be set up in a way to oppress a specific gender (like they in American society), but the fact that we have two sets of standards is not arbitrary; the sad story of David Riemer proves that gender isn't just nurture.

Below is mostly my interpretation of the data, I don't remember seeing any study specifically say it:

Our brains need a way to interpret social roles but also know what roles are expected of us and what are not. It's not just because AFAB people are raised being told to wear dresses and AMAB people aren't, for example; we also perceive people wearing dresses, and a woman would say, "that person wearing a dress acceptably is a woman, and so it is acceptable for me to wear a dress" while a man would not get that message.

The problem isn't the specific trappings of gender, but rather being sorted into the right bin.

However, if you see a trans woman who seems to be practicing or pursuing a more traditional femininity, it's often because it's more distanced from masculinity and parts of society, especially the doctors that gatekeep access to drugs and surgery, keep them to stricter gender roles. It's fine for a cis woman to have enjoyed playing with transformers, for example, but if a trans woman brings that up it makes people start to doubt her validity as a woman.

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Hypocritical-Cunt•

the sad story of David Riemer proves that gender isn't just nurture.

No, it doesn’t. It proves that sexual assaulting and medically abusing children is bad.

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

I get that argument, but my question is how someone could consider themselves a feminist while also endorsing this.

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transmaiden•

I don't think many of us endorse it, rather, we have no choice but to make up shit & fit ourselves into these boxes in order to describe experiences that fit the "trans narrative" our doctors have come to expect (dont ask me why but i hate it, seriously, I think it's cuz in older times the only ways docs could begin to understand what we felt were from social gender roles, so trans people lied about it to get help & treatment, and now we're stuck in this loop) because if we don't fit in correctly, our doctors have the power to deny us the treatment we desperately need, on the basis of a flawed and outdated understanding of dysphoria.

For example: my psychiatrist here in taiwan has been asking me repeatedly to be more feminine and go out and about w/ feminine gender expression to "prove" that I can live and do well in society "as a girl." The whole thing drives me fucking bonkers and I don't actually like being that feminine, but I can't say a single word against it, nor protest, out of fear that she'll deny me treatment I need for my sex dysphoria (which I have indeed described to her despite how difficult it is for me to talk about, I hate thinking about it & talking face to face is infinitely harder than online, & about a subject like that...doesnt help that I'm on the spectrum too).

Basically, these doctors and psychs have the power to deny us the cure for sex dysphoria if we don't sufficiently conform to the "expected trans narrative" which relies on gendered stereotypes.

I hate it, you hate it, but as of now, I have no choice but to play along...

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sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

I couldn't speak to how things are in Taiwan, but from what I've read on trans subreddits on Reddit, most people who take HRT will take it for an extended period of time (sometimes a year or more) before going "full-time." From what I understand, living "full-time" is a pretty hard requirement for SRS but not necessarily for HRT in the US.

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Coppercumin2357•

The US system *was* similar to what shes descriving for Taiwan. It changed relatively recently.

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

Sure. So, dresses and heels have historically been used to oppress women. Is it antifeninist for a woman to enjoy dresses or heels?

0†
sosososhockingOPGender Critical•

"Women's clothing" is women's clothing typically because it appeals to the male gaze and reinforces the idea that a woman's role in society is to appeal to men and be subservient to what men want.

A women enjoying a dress is much different than an MTF putting on that dress because they want to be seen as a woman. A woman knows they are a woman even if they're in sweat pants, a t-shirt, and walking around without makeup. On the other hand, MTF people will not receive the social role validation that they want without taking the oppressive elements of society's expectation of womanhood and putting it on. That's an endorsement. That's something that most women are not doing, and it's something that a feminist is definitely not doing. Sure, there are some women who toe the line of society's expectations and are not feminists and look down on women who are. That doesn't make my point any less valid.

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

I mean, there are trans women who wear sweats and no makeup around the house, it's that cis women aren't at risk of being mistaken for a man if they don't dress right.

So then, what can women wear if women's clothes are always designed for the male gaze? Low-cut clothes show more skin, high-cut clothes enforce "modesty", thick fabric hides women's natural form, thin shows it off.

Trans women are women, and they don't need to do anything to make them that. However, I've also seen it said that they don't get to be called women without putting effort into it. It puts them in a bind when putting effort into "being" a woman also gets them attacked for reducing femininity to its patriarchal trappings.

1†
JollyPurple•

Yes and no. No in the fact that women are victims of their oppression. It's not fair to blame them because they will be harmed for not doing so otherwise. Society and the patriarchy rienforce a woman wearing dresses or heels with praise and value.

Most women do not analyze the effects of female socialization and the constraints and oppression forced on them since birth. I know better, and yet I feel shameful when I don't shave my legs. I feel ugly, and unhygenic, and know I will be made fun of. Those are the negative reinforcements of patriarchy that keep women in line to do what men want. When women wear dresses and heels they are positively reinforced with words like well-dressed, beautiful, sexy, fierce.

But the difference is that women are victims of the system. You can't fault a woman for doing what their oppressors force them into doing. Most women are just trying to survive the patriarchy in the easiest way possible. Saying that women who choose to wear heels and dresses aren't under the influence of oppression is like saying that women who wear burkas aren't under the influence of oppression. Both of these things are forced onto women and if they don't do them they are punished by society. It's not a free choice if there is shame involved in that choice. There is no freedom of choice in chains.

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

That logic applies equally to trans women, though. If a trans woman doesn't perform femininity to patriarchal standards, she's going to be punished, possibly killed. But also trans women have been at the intersection of two negative messages for their whole lives: if they don't shave their legs, they're disgusting monsters. If they do shave their legs, they're beaten up and ostracized.

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mollusc-tabernacle•

This is not a sustainable argument, as I see it. Here you're effectively saying two things:

  1. It is morally wrong to further women's oppression by performing the restrictive feminine gender role. Specifically, things like wearing dresses and heels, wearing makeup, shaving your body hair, and (more explicitly) softening your voice or acting in socially submissive ways in order to better perform "womanhood" are a net negative to society. Performing femininity in this way is morally wrong, advances the patriarchy, and should be avoided if it is reasonably possible to do so.
  2. Natal women can never be held responsible for this, since society forces them to do it. Regardless of the circumstances of an individual natal woman - her personal wealth, social privilege, or level of individual liberty - she is not responsible for the corrosive social harm caused by her performance of femininity, her desire to perform femininity, or her attitudes towards the performance of femininity.

This makes sense in some scenarios - I agree that femininity is generally restrictive, sexist, and designed to inhibit women - but the idea that you're willing to give all natal women a free pass on doing something you've constructed as morally wrong is incoherent.

At what point does a natal woman become responsible for dismantling the feminine gender role, under this construction? Is it ever her responsibility, or even in the zone of her interest? If a particular woman is wealthy, white, and living in an area where she would have a reasonable expectation of safety if she stopped performing femininity, would it then become her moral responsibility to do so?

1
Quixoticfutz•

It can be yes, although a woman choosing to conform to what society has forced on her since birth while the cost of not conforming can be very damaging is not exactly the same as a male adopting those things and proclaiming it makes them a woman or more of one.

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

I think I see. Sorry for being kind of slow, I just want to make sure I understand your problem well before I make an assumption.

So if a woman has been told her entire life to wear a dress, then it's not antifeminist for her to enjoy dresses. But when a trans woman comes in, I can see how it wouldn't seem...earned?

But I think you're missing that trans women have "earned" it, but in a different way. Trans women have spent their whole life being denied dresses, sometimes with violence, always with ostracism.

I'm taking a bit of a leap here, but do you agree that a dress isn't only a symbol of oppression for women, but a symbol of femininity as well? If so, then when given the ability to engage with it, I don't think women are somehow dodging the weight that comes with wearing a dress.

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hopedarawrasaurus•

I would argue you can wear and enjoy whatever you want, but just because you enjoy something or choose to do something doesn't mean it's feminist.

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

I'd agree that it's not inherently actively feminist, but it's not necessarily anti-feminist, right? It's like... feminism-neutral.

Edit: feminism-neutral is a better word, not neutrally feminist

1
DivingRightIntoWork•

Yes, actually, it can be. Just like it can be anti-feminist for a woman to take their husband's last name. To give up their better paying job they find fulfilling to have kids. To vote for less qualified men over more qualified women.

​

Is it anti-feminist for a woman to bind their feet and promote foot binding for other females?

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KerPop42Pro-Trans•

It can be, but is it intrinsically? Can a woman still be a feminist and take her husband's last name, or leave her fulfilling job to raise her kids?

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Coppercumin2357•

David Reiner is actually a terrible example. He was sexually abused bYyhis doctor.

1
licktheetruff•

As a human being, the whole of the interesting post did to me what every interesting post or subject has done since I was able to first form my own sentence, and my Father was able to understand my first sentence! The content of this sentence is not relevant to this area of opinion, though I was interested to hear from my Father that it was a question, rather than a statement, which subsequently led me to the fact that I must have had some 'inner debate' before the time I could use words to address it ... In any case, this lifelong 'need' to find answers will be with me until my last breath. I have yet to find find answers which make total sense when I read the answers/opinions of people answering posts on Sexuality, Gender and Choice, though it's 'early days' for me, so I am full of hope! This morning, I have just finished reading a short piece. - 'The Tragic Case That Proved Gender Can't Be Assigned.' - media.com As a 'newby' to this popular debate, I found this piece to be thought provoking, and hope that other readers will have a similar response. S.

1