Source
r/EDH•
Temp_Variable

I think there new ban list changes show that there is no longer a need for Sheldon and the RC and here's why

DISCUSSION

Sheldon is a casual player. This is fine. Casual lower power decks can be fun. I own several. However, he generally only bans cards that cause problems at his casual table. Because of his lack of perspective from only ever playing at one power level, Sheldon bans cards that cause him issues regardless of whether or not they're actually broken.

At it's heart, the issue here is that if you're paying EDH as a friendly social format then there is a social contract that you all need to agree to that supercedes the ban list. If people would remember to actually talk to one another and agree about what power level they're looking to play at we wouldn't need this ban list at all for casual play. The ban list should only come into play for sanctioned tournaments and should therefore be controlled by someone else more familiar with that type of play. In sanctioned events you should be able to play as competitive and powerful a deck as you want to. Sheldon's "it's not fun to play against" bans have no place and Sheldon has no place in this sort of environment.

If I showed up to a standard event with a sub par deck, kept losing, and then started complaining that the winning decks are too powerful and no fun. I'd get laughed out of the building. Why should it be any different for EDH? If you want to play casual lower power decks, great, go have fun, I'll probably be wanting to join you in a minute, but you shouldn't prevent people who want to play more powerful decks from doing so just because that's not the type of fun you enjoy.

I know not everyone will agree with me, but these are my feelings on the matter.

Posted Jul 8, 2019, 5:41 PM UTC

155
Torem_KaminaScarab God / Gonti / Yidris / Kydele/Reyhan•

This subreddit is on average a lot more competitive than the actual average playerbase, you have to consider that.

The format has a very casual audience and it's fine that they are making decisions for their average player.

Any playgroup can override whatever rules they don't like but any place with ever-changing playgroup relies on a basic rule set and those are often times people jamming slightly upgraded pre-cons and games are too ad-hoc to communicate deckbuilding philosophies so the banlist has to accomodate for these.

24
theatog•

CAN and WILL is very different. Also you have to consider people who don't have a regular playgroup and play with new friends from time to time.

The fact is that his words and banlist has some authority and himself is making no fucking sense. I am seriously in favor that he should retire and let another entity handle the bans.

1
elting44The Golgari don't bury their dead, they plant them.•

Sheldon is a casual player

EDH is a casual format.

If I showed up to a standard event with a sub par deck, kept losing, and then started complaining that the winning decks are too powerful and no fun. I'd get laughed out of the building. Why should it be any different for EDH?

Because Standard is a competitive format. The goal is winning. This isn't the case with EDH.

If you are seeking to play the most efficient and tight lines of play, utilizing the best cards available, and having the highest possible win rate, then play a competitive format.

But most importantly, if your play group agrees that there is no need for Sheldon and the RC, than simply ignore the banlist.

21
Morbol09•

I disagree with that last line, I for example only play at a LGS, so if everyone there has different banlists/houserules I would need to either change my deck before every game, or simply Not play with those people. This doesnt work, the banlist is there so when I go into an unknown group of people, I can play with them and be at least close to the same level as them. And then ofcourse you have things like cEDH, But I wouldnt expect to randomly face them in a LGS.

10
DaBestAroundgrixis•

then you take the risk of going to an unknown group and no I am not going to let you play banned cards no matter how fair you say they are. Also if you have never run into a cEDH deck at an LGS masqurading as a fair deck good for your lgs but trust me it happens. The number of people I have played who combo off on turn four after insisting their deck is only 75 Percent makes you stop trusting people.

4
Temp_VariableOP•

That's the problem we're dealing with though there are cards that are banned from bring used at an lgs that have no business being banned. That includes paradox engine.

I'm sorry to hear your experiences with people lying about the power of their decks, but that what I'm talking about with a social contract. That guy was an asshole and if he continually does that then people should stop playing with him, but there are places for decks like his and they don't deserve to be banned for the sake of one type of fun over another.

6
DaBestAroundgrixis•

I dont think they were lying I think some seriously thought he was playing a 75 percent deck. one guy told me a list of card he specifically did not put in it to lower the power level. What you consider 75 and what I do are probably vastly different. He said 4 was a little early for his deck but he usually combo's off turn 5 or 6. to me anything that regularly wins before turn 8 is a 9 or 10 on the power level you may have a different opinion.

1
elting44The Golgari don't bury their dead, they plant them.•

That's why I said "if your playgroup agrees"

at an LGS, the safest bet is to adhere to the RC, and the RC's modus operandi is to make bans that they determine are unhealthy for most casual settings. If you feel passionate about a card that should/shouldn't be banned, then make your case with those you are playing a pod with, but be ready to accept what the group decides on.

-1†
BIGchikin•

This. The "I think the RC sucks and shouldn't be listened to" argument is already a thing. Do what your playgroup wants, but the format as a whole has been well taken care of by the RC.

2†
SpyglassSuperiorJodah's Fireworks Show•

why should it be different for EDH?

Because those other formats you compared it to are competitive formats. EDH is not. This format document clarified that- EDH has at its core, a goal of games where everyone’s deck gets to do its thing and the players express their creation. The goal of competitive magic is only to end the game in your favor.

Competitive magic and EDH are mutually exclusive, and now we have it in writing

18
TinyTank27•

Piggybacking of what you said, Standard, Extended, Modern, Legacy, and Vintage were all created as tournament formats for people to compete in, so naturally the bans (or restrictions in the case of Vintage) are based on what is most competitive in the respective formats.

EDH was created as a format for people to play cards that weren't viable in competitive formats, and a lot of EDH players are playing the format for exactly that reason. What's viable at a competitive level in any format is ultimately a pretty small amount of stuff; EDH is a format where the majority of players are deliberately building decks well below what can be built because they want a format where more things are potentially viable.

6
Temp_VariableOP•

The assertion that competitive magic and EDH are mutually exclusive is patently false.

I unfortunately don't have time to explain why it's wrong, but that's a heck of a position to take.

-4†
SpyglassSuperiorJodah's Fireworks Show•

From the format philosophy document:

The goal of the ban list is similar; it does not seek to regulate competitive play or power level

This is the edh banlist we’re talking about. The one that regulates edh. If it IS for EDH, and it is NOT for competitive play, then it’s safe to say that those are two different categories of playing magic.

4
Temp_VariableOP•

Ok then maybe my complaints about Sheldon are misplaced and should be redirected towards why a ban list that itself says is not for competitive play is enforced in sanctioned competitive events.

That is too say not all events should be competitive, casual play is the majority and is just as valid and fun, but if you have one that is this ban list philosophy is detrimental to that.

3
GamerDad08Your deck needs more black.•

My issue is the RC has no criteria for bans. The logic given isn't applied anywhere else. The ban list looks like a dart board.

10 years to ban Iona and it gets banned so you can pull painters servant out. Which makes NO SENSE. Is it a lock? Sure. So is Teferi/knowledge pool. Where is the ban there? Teferi is actually a decent commander to, in colors that tutor for the combo. No one is playing Iona as their commander and expecting to actually hit this lock.

Winter Orb, static orb, stasis, mindslaver. All colorless cards that are "unfun" yet no banned. While I don't think they should be banned, do they not meet the same criteria?

Paradox Engine is not ban worthy. There is SO MUCH work to allow it to be good. Casual or not, you can run removal. I just built a $25 commander deck, it can stop an engine. Casual commander doesn't mean 40 lands and 59 vanilla 2/2's. People need to respond to threats.

I have no confidence in them because they do not actually have consistent logic and reasoning. Half the cards on the list either shouldn't be there, or it should almost doubled.

10
myneighborroberto•

Commander is a casual format though. I don’t have a problem with cEDH at all, but I think the vast majority of players aren’t comboing out on turn 4

8
Temp_VariableOP•

And they don't have to and shouldn't have to pay against those people if they don't want to. However I think that if someone wants to combo off on turn 2 that's an equally valid type of fun that some people enjoy.

The whole thing here is the social contract of understanding what power level the game you're going to play is going to be at so everyone can have fun.

I just think that a casual focused ban list that is only really enforced for competitive events is silly. Yes some cards shouldn't be played in casual play but that should be up to the play group not a ban list.

1
EurydaceSelvala, Explorer Returned | Meren | Ephara | Feather•

EDH is a casual format. The rules committee exists to ensure it stays that way. These bans reinforce that. They will be effective. You want EDH to be something it's not.

6†
DablimSNiv-Mizzet, Parun•

Your playgroup can be casual or competitive, a format is just a format.

1
PuzzleboxedZedruu, Prossh, Gahiji, Yuriko, Reyhan&Ishai, Jolrael•

As someone who has played commander competitively in the past, let me say that as a competitive format Commander sucks ass. Every single rule is designed to make it harder to play competitively.

Just play standard or modern. Everyone will be happier.

4†
Temp_VariableOP•

However, while your opinion is valid, there are still people who do enjoy competitive EDH. Why should they be have to fight with a ban list that is oriented towards a completely different type of game?

1†
TinyTank27•

Why should they be have to fight with a ban list that is oriented towards a completely different type of game?

Because they chose to find the most broken things to do in a format oriented towards a different type of game?

4
Temp_VariableOP•

But as I've told others I believe strongly that by saying EDH is a casual only format you're telling people they're having fun wrong. So why do that when you could easily be more inclusive.

8
SpyglassSuperiorJodah's Fireworks Show•

You can’t be inclusive. As u/TinyTank27 said, the goal of cEDH is to do the most broken things in the format. Generate infinite mana turn 3. Lock everyone else out of the game.

The philosophy document explicitly states in its closing line that aiming for pure brokenness is antithetical to the purpose of EDH. If you want to label it “having fun wrong”, you’re welcome to, but that’s not really a slur at this point as much as it’s an explicitly-outlined part of the defining document for the game most of us are here to play. Yes, EDH is designed for a certain type of fun, and the banlist exists to serve that type of fun’s end. If your type of fun looks different, EDH is probably not the place for you.

-2
PuzzleboxedZedruu, Prossh, Gahiji, Yuriko, Reyhan&Ishai, Jolrael•

You don't have to fight with the banlist. You just have to find like-minded people to create your own banlist. Stop expecting other people to cater to your needs instead of their own.

0†
Temp_VariableOP•

I'm not asking others to cater to just me I'm just saying that I think the current system could be improved by taking more than just casual play into consideration in regards to the ban list without hurting casual players. I also think that Sheldon and the current philosophy followed by the rules committee is detrimental to that and hampers the growth of the format.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
KujakuDM•

Yes. Make this thread again. I'm sure SOMETHING will happen this time. I'm sure.

4†
Temp_VariableOP•

Look I think it's a valid point. If you would like to have an actual discussion where you believe to the contrary, great! If you're just going to be sarcastic and not constructive you can kindly leave and ignore this post.

2†
KujakuDM•

This exact post has been made hundreds of times. Imo the only thing that would get a new committee that people cared about would be something like "sheldon bans infinite combos."

cEDH is niche. Play with whatever ban list you want in your group.

Or play Canadian Highlander.

-4
LonotaBarca•

Last mode [[Bow of nylea]] targeting this thread.

Pay 3UU to activate [[soothsaying]]

1
MTGCardFetcher•

Bow of nylea - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
soothsaying - (G) (SF) (txt) (ER)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

1
Griz024•

Come off it

1
TheyGonHate•

I just bought a hoogak too. That's annoying.

1
LonotaBarca•

You deserve it :p

You know you do mate im not salty im just saying

1
TheyGonHate•

He didn't even have to resolve.

1
LonotaBarca•

Tier 0s come and go friend

2
TheyGonHate•

It would've been like turn 4 by design.

1
laboufe•

Agreed. Sheldon is a fossil and needs to go for this format to grow

-1†
stenti36•

EDH is a casual format first and foremost. What was your argument again?

​

That casual formats shouldn't have a banlist designed for more casual play, while giving as many cards to players? (because that is part of the ban philosophy)

-2
Temp_VariableOP•

I understand that's the ban philosophy. What I'm saying is that the philosophy is flawed.

Why have a ban list that really only gets enforced in sanctioned competitive events be focused on casual play?

I also understand that people think that EDH is a casual only format. This is something I wholeheartedly disagree with. I agree that casual play is the backbone of the format but it's not the only way to play the game. Saying EDH is casual only is telling people that enjoy competitive EDH that they're type of fun is wrong and that it shouldn't be supported which seems wrong to me.

3
stenti36•

I'm not saying EDH is a casual only format. The thing to remember is that it is designed for casual play. It always has been. In addition to that, they recognize the amount of cards and ways to play, so they aim to keep as many cards unbanned as possible.

I would rather have our current list than have an overly zealous group ban cards left and right. I would rather have the current RC over Wizards.

1
Temp_VariableOP•

Thanks for your perspective and for actually discussing the matter. I see your points and while I don't know that I agree with them all, I appreciate the fact that you're willing to discuss other ideas.

2
stenti36•

The larger issue is that EDH started with pure casual play focus. As popularity increased, so did the average 'competitiveness' of the decks. This leads to the assumption that EDH isn't as casual as it was designed for. It also shows how Sheldon and whomever else is part of the RC an unwillingness to move along with the general deck power level (being one failing of the RC).

I think a better step then to call for the end of the current RC or Sheldon in particular (because it seems he gets all the hate), is better influence outside the RC. The committee of whatever to help the RC should have, at minimum, a representation of most of the meta power levels. That means, even more casual than Sheldon all the way to cEDH. A better spectrum of what's being played only allows the RC to make better more informed decisions.

I also think they should relinquish some control over EDH and work with Wizards to implement better data acquisitions over what cards are being used, where the power levels are, what is broken, etc. Also working on better social presence, an updated website, etc.

I do think the RC isn't doing a very good job, but not necessarily in the directions that seems to be the hot topic at the moment. What the RC needs to do is spend the money to update their website. The EDH official website should be the premier location for all things EDH. Currently I wouldn't rank it in the top ten. Hell search "EDH official rules" and it isn't the top link. You have to click on mtgcommander.net, which looks like some hinky nothing website.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Ctrl_Shift_ZZ•

You are entitled to your own opinion(s). And so are we, so lets just stick to more observable facts and a civil discussion.

That said EDH is a CASUAL format, that was the intention when it was created, and it still is. If edh is all you’ve ever played then its harder to compare to the other formats, such as standard, modern, etc. standard, modern, legacy, and vintage are all COMPETITIVE formats, the goal of the game is win, not have fun and socialize (although not mutually exclusive) like a casual format like edh and oath breaker.

Now this is were Sheldon and his team come into play. The goal is to keep EDH casual so that any new players, or players tired of competitive formats can still play and have fun. It isnt and never will be a competitive format. You can definitely push it to the limits but it isnt going to a competitive format.

Im not sure how many LGSs you’ve been to or how big your play group is, but i frequent several different LGSs and know a few large groups of EDH players, and of all of them i can count on one hands how many of them are cedh players or even own a cedh deck period. Cedh is such a fringe outlier format that it wouldn’t make a lick of sense to try to make a casual format more accommodating to the 10% or less of the player base at the risk of making the game “unfun” for the vast majority of players of the format.

If you dont like the ban list, and your play group agrees, why use the ban list then? Have fun and play to your hearts content. You can play as competitively as you want and you and your play group wouldnt affect the other edh players with those decks since your decks wouldnt be allowed. Everyone gets to be happy then. You get to play whatever you want, at the level you want, and so does everyone else. You cant just bring your banned cards into a random pod and pub stomp players anymore, which is probably healthier for the community anyways. Its a win-win.

-2
Temp_VariableOP•

I would assert that EDH is not an inherently casual format. I think casual and competitive EDH are both valid. I'm tired of people saying "this is a casual only format". The entire idea of telling people they're having fun wrong by playing a more competitive deck is ridiculous.

1
Ctrl_Shift_ZZ•

If you can find me a sanctioned official edh tournament, i will concede that it can be a competitive format. If not, it is casual. Now that is just fact.

This however DOES NOT mean you cant push edh to a higher level such that cEDH does (if thats your definition of fun). It just means it is a casual format and was made for a casual player base. Just because a few people want to take it to the next level shouldnt mean the RC or CAG has to cater to the small minority if it hinders the majorty of the player base of that format.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Gelnar-BloodwingGhave the Guru of Combos|Queen Sidisi and her pet Hulk•

EDH is a social casual format, there is a competitive player base but they are the minority. The Banlist should reflect the target audience, IMO Sheldon and the RC are doing fine, they are banning based on their target audience and they have an advisory board now who were probably factors in this. Some of the people on that advisory board are former Hall of Famers/GP Winners iirc so they are definitely lending an ear and a voice, the RC still has the final say on the bans though but they take into consideration what was said.

I'll say it like this, when something gets banned in Modern do people complain that Wizard's banned their strong thing and that they need to get better people for the list? Probably but if you complain about RC and praise Wizard's their is a problem, because they do the same things but for different audiences and reasons.

If something strong gets banned and your deck gets nerfed and you want it to be strong again, adapt.

-2
RoVaBen•

Simply no. My playgroup is casual, looking at what we play this banning structure is completely clear and well thought out.

-3†
Temp_VariableOP•

The problem I have with the current banning structure is that they are forcing bans to protect casual play on more competitive players. Why not have a morning competitively assigned ban list that casual players can add to? Or even if casual players still want their own ban list why not to separate lists that are curated for each community separately?

0†
DaBestAroundgrixis•

because you answered your own question that it is not a competitive format. You want it to be but the thing people on reddit always forget is just by actively going to a message board to debate they are proablby in the top 25 percent of players that actually play edh regularly. There are 75 percent of players below you who are the real casuals and for some reason it is unfathomable to the top 25 percent to understand the bottom 75. Very fiew people are saying that the banned cards are the most powerful what they are saying is that the cards are unfun to play against for enough players that they are banned. When your fun is linked to winning its tough to understand the distinction.

-1
Temp_VariableOP•

You're equally as guilty of not understanding the other side as you say the top 25% are. I enjoy playing EDH for the social aspect of getting together with friends and playing the game most of all. Winning isn't important. That being said I enjoy playing powerful magic cards. Those cards such as paradox engine are not always suitable for a play group and that's fine that's why you need to communicate with who you're paying with about what power level everyone is bringing to the table.

I enjoy low power budget decks as well as high power high priced decks. My argument isn't that one is better than the other. It's actually that both are equally valid and should be considered. I just feel the current structure of the RC and the ban list could be more inclusive rather than exclusive and that the casual first philosophy that Sheldon and the RC follow is detrimental to that.

3
DaBestAroundgrixis•

Rules can not be fair they will always effect a group more than another. I am going to use the minimum wage law that congress is trying to pass as an example. a 15 dollar an hour minimum wage will hopefully help 17 million people afford life in the job they have. but it would also stand to close a bunch of small businesses that are just barely making ends meet at the current minimum wage. This law would not be fair to those business but does that mean it should not pass and those 17 million people should just keep enduring. I am not going to debate whether minimum wage increase it a good thing( for the record I think it is) but it highlights that rules and laws are never going to effect everyone equal. The rules committee steers towards banning as few cards as possible to keep the a format with very few banned cards for the majority of players. If you ban flash for cEDH a new toxic thing will take its place next week that they will be clamoring for a ban of. You cant ban for cEDH becasue this is not a competitive format they will always want the power level of some deck brought down becasue when you play for statkes there is always going to be a best deck, best team , best card, best answer. These ban will likely start to effect the casual players who were using cards fairly. look at faithless looting right now in modern as a prime example.

1
[deleted]•

[removed]

-1
Temp_VariableOP•

Thank you for your feedback. I'll take that into consideration. If you have anything else just as enlightening to contribute please do so.

3
Gladiator-class•

In theory I actually like the idea of having a casual banlist and a cEDH banlist, but I can already see a some problems with actually doing that.

First and most obvious, those dickheads that insist "it's totally a casual battlecruiser deck" and then play the closest thing they possibly can to a cEDH deck (or they just flatout do play one, depending on how they split the banlists). I know that excluding the asshole is an option--there's a guy around here that a lot of people avoid playing with for doing shit like this--but that's still going to be an issue in places where groups aren't consistent or at events.

Second is how you determine what to ban in casual games. Tutors? Where do we draw the line with those? Demonic and Vampiric, probably gone, but what about Diabolic Revelation? What about Tooth and Nail, which is very powerful but also one of the Timmiest Sorceries ever printed (and in many ways the embodiment of what casual EDH players love about the format). The problem with banning for casual formats--especially when it comes to tutors--is that often you want to let people play those big awesome spells but there are so many possible end results of someone entwining a Tooth and Nail, or killing their own Protean Hulk. Someone who grabs two generic Eldrazi or finds a, Etali Primal Storm isn't really doing anything too crazy, but should we ban all the things they could have found that would have been a lot better? Do we ban It That Betrays and/or Cataclysmic Gearhulk? Do we ban Disciple of the Vault? So much of casual play revolves around using potentially broken cards to do things that aren't at all broken, which means every time they ban a "problem card" for casual they're probably going to be met with a wave of "but I wasn't even doing anything degenerate with it" that would make the backlash for this banning look like mild grumbling at worst.

Third is that to ban for casual you kind of have to do a lot of playtesting, because banning cards that create unfun situations requires testing them in a lot of different decks, against a lot of different decks. "Shirtless Sex Dungeon Tribal" and "Ladies Looking Left" probably aren't exactly unleashing the full power of Paradox Engine or as capable of answering, say, Tooth and Nail into Avenger of Zendikar and something that finds land. But what about Kruphix Eldrazi or The Ur-Dragon? Competitive is a lot easier to plan bans around because it's much more streamlined, and it's easier to identify the cards that formed or enabled combos when the deck was designed to use them for that purpose.

2